I have a 1909 Argentine action. It's quite clean, and has the bolt handle turned down. It has new, steel bottom metal. It needs to have the rear bridge contoured, then drilled and tapped. Does it need re heat treating? How expensive is all this? Am i better off to sell it and get a Mod. 70 for my project?

I can’t offer much, but will follow this. I have a complete 1909 Cavalry Carbine and have thought about converting it. What caliber are you considering?

7X57 is the plan.

Won't need a re-heat-treat on the rear bridge. Bolt handle turned down? Is it an add-on or the original? You will need a new bolt handle, drill and tap, trigger, safety conversion, rear tang profile, new barrel, etc.

I wouldn't sell it, great action for a custom. Toss up between that and a model 70, would depend on what caliber but I would go with the '09 for a 7x57

Mr. Kobe, i sent you a PM.

It costs $75 to re heat treat them, and I have many of them done (at the customers requests). For a 7mm, I would not bother.
Is it better to sell it and buy a Model 70? Only you can answer that. If you are asking if the costs are the same, yes they are. I like them both.
For the 7x57, most of my requests are for the old Rigby contour, like the Earl of Marlborough rifle. In 275 Rigby.
Actually I have one just like that for sale that only needs finishing.
Square bridge 1909.

dpcd you have a PM

quote:

Originally posted by HighWall:
Mr. Kobe, i sent you a PM.

Didn't get it

The 1909 is a fine Action. My opinion only, or rather what I would do in your position.

If your planning on building a modern scoped hunting rifle: Why not start with a model 70 or a commercial Mauser (Mark X, FN, Husqvarna) that is scope ready. You can sell the 1909 to fund the purchase. An unmodified original action will always bring a good price.

If you want to build a vintage style open sight sporting Mauser: Use the 1909 action. The Bolt handle will probably still need replacing but there will be no other modifications to the action needed. A nice barrel, some iron sights, and a good stock...then call it done!

Not to hijack your thread again, but it’s helping me with ideas on mine.

I don’t mind the 7.65x53, but even the carbine is a heavy gun. I suppose a stock swap would help.

They are very high quality the 1909, seen price for just acrion here in Norway almost 1k. Wonder why it got new metal bottom as it was hinged from factory.

Douglas would NOT rebarrel my 1909 to 7x57 unless it was heat treated.

Years ago I collected several of the 1909 actions because they were so slick and some gunsmiths said/wrote that they made good custom rifles.

I sent one off to be rebarreled and the gunsmith said he wouldn't do it - first because the bolt lugs were already set back, and he said he just didn't want to mess with it. He said send him a suitable action next time and we will both be happy.

So, I checked the other actions and found one that was not already set back. I sent it off to be heat treated and sold the others. When I got the heat treated one back it was warped. I tried straightening it and it sprung back. I tossed it and vowed never again.

I suppose if one can be found that has no bolt set back already and has a decent barrel - shoot it. My understanding is that the factory 7.65x53 ammo is loaded low pressure with consideration of rifles older than the 1909.

Back to the gunsmith saying send him a decent action next time - I did. It was a commercial FN and I had it barreled in 7.65x53. I still have it.


The cartridge is also called 7.65 Belgian and is readily available. And it's makes a great deer and hog rifle.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/c...gory/categoryId/240?



https://www.midwayusa.com/765m...-mauser/br?cid=10464

https://www.chuckhawks.com/7-65x53_7-65x53R.htm

I have had at least a dozen receivers heat treated by Blanchards; never one was warped.
1909, turk 38, Spanish 91, Mex 36; those are the type I have had done.
Douglas does Rockwell check receivers sent to them; if they are soft ish, they do not barrel them to anything, for liability purposes. I don't know their cut off. But for sure, some 09s are soft.

To me it became one of the prime examples of NOT doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.

My experience was probably 20 years ago and the same discussions were going on then. Some said the 1909s were fine and some admitted some are soft. Some reported good results with heat treating and some not.

The thing is, as I understand it, military Mauser receivers were heat treated at the factory differently than the after-market treatment. I've read that the surface (skin) of a receiver may be one hardness and the interior another, and the lugs of the receiver another and the lugs of the bolt another, and so forth.

There is a reason they did that besides the technology available. A fresh heat treatment today, as I understand it, will result in the same hardness throughout.

I quit messing with military receivers a long time ago, and quit messing with Mausers when I discovered the CZ 550. (forged) I Believe one can count on, trust, the factory heat treatment to be absolutely correct on those receivers and of no concern whatsoever. That's the only way I like it.

I'll take a Ruger 77 MKII (cast) anytime before messing with a Mauser again.

BTW, I have several rifles built on commercial Mauser actions and like them very much, but won't do it again.

There was a MK X Mauser action for sale in classified here on AR. Don't know if it sold already. The price seemed reasonable. I always get carried away and go for the custom trigger and three position safety. The Ruger action deserves a custom trigger too, but my CZs still have the factory trigger and safety.

Unmodified, original actions typically bring the best price. Because your action has had the safety modified and the bolt handle done, you would have to find the right buyer who is ok with those modifications and the price you need to get.

For cost reasons,usually my advice would be to buy a commercial action for a scope rifle build and leave a military style action for an open sight stalking/express rifle build. In my earlier post I did not realize some work had already been done to the action. If you plan on having something like a 7x57 built then there is no reason not to use your action. All it needs is the action drilled and tapped for scope mounts. A nice barrel and a stock would be easy enough and then your good to go.

If you decide to go the model 70 route then you might want to consider options other than the pre 64. The pre 64 is cream of the crop certainly, but also quite expensive. If your wanting to have a spared no expense, heirloom quality rifle then definitely go that route. However, the later made controlled round feed actions of the 90s and early 2000s built when the Winchester plant still operated are nice enough. A complete gun can be found usually for the price of a Pre 64 action. Unless you are a die hard custom gun nut, it would be hard to tell the differance once finished.

In the end I guess it all depends on what exactly your goals are. Do you want a budget sporter , high end custom or something in between ?

Lots of opinions on my part, but I hope it helps.

quote:

I'll take a Ruger 77 MKII (cast) anytime before messing with a Mauser again.

One of the best values out there.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I'll take a Ruger 77 MKII (cast) anytime before messing with a Mauser again.

One of the best values out there.

Yes, for the garage mechanics out there

After several years of experience and lots of money, one of the last things I want to be hooked up with is a gunsmith. Auto mechanics are practically a necessity, but gunsmiths are optional.

I opt out.

I used to not think highly of the Ruger action for anything custom, until I tried one and the result was great. I have four now - a 308, 6.5 Grendel, 9.3x338, 458. Yes, different gunsmiths did some of the work. The four things they all have in common is PacNor installed the stainless barrels and they are all very accurate, and they all feed perfectly and I have no worries at all about the strength of the actions.

The action I like even better, which requires no gunsmith work, on the action, is the CZ 550. I have a 6.5x55, 7x57, 7x64, 30-06, 8x57, 8mm/308 Norma, 35 Whelen. All except one are custom or have some custom work, and all are very satisfying.

The only one that is unmodified is the 30-06. It was the last one purchased - while CZ was still making them, and the price was right. When I bought it was about the time I was running out of steam over gunsmiths in general. The hassle, uncertainty, expense and temperament had worn me down.

For years I had one gunsmith who did all the custom work I needed. It took several years of trial and error and expense and messed up projects to find him. After he retired I used different gunsmiths, depending on the project, with mixed results.

Finally, I had to get creative to avoid complexities, multiple gunsmiths, shipping, etc. So, I started having PacNor install all my barrels. If they couldn't or wouldn't do it, then I did without or changed direction. I had them contour the barrels to fit the stock barrel channel inletting; CZ factory stock for example. On my 308 and 458 on the Ruger actions, I had PacNor contour the barrel for a close fit in a Hogue drop-in stock. That worked so well that I've never looked back. The cost of a special contour was much less expensive than custom inletting, shipping, and the uncertainties. PacNor even did all my wildcat chambers and installed the barrels.

BTW, of all the rifles I have, I like those wearing the Hogue stocks best when I'm hunting from a stand - for deer or hogs. They are much quieter than wood or fiberglass when the stand is inevitably bumped, and suffer no damage either. I don't have to baby them. I use others, but have to be much more carful about making noise - that thump of the slightest bump of the stock on the rail of the stand is amplified and reverberates, and WILL alert deer or hog.

I suppose another solution is to put some padding on the rails, but I haven't done that - yet.

There will ALWAYS be HATERS...doesn't matter if it's a Ruger, Savage, Winchester, Mossberg, VW, Cadillac, chocolate or vanilla...AND ELITISTS. Let them live in their own little world, the rest of us know better.

Gunsmiths like 98s because the customers has to spend big bucks bringing them up to modern standards.

Rugers are just a simple trigger replacement away.


Doesn't cost much and can be done by most any one.

I personally liked building rifles on the 98 action because IMO it was + is the top design in a bolt rifle.Times change;the Ruger is a grand action,but is still in theory a 98 w/some improvements.I don't build any rifles anymore so I have no dog in this hunt,only my opinion.

I like the '98 action too. I lost count of how many I have had and sold. Of all the military actions I've had, as I recall, only three made it to a complete shooting rifle - a 7x57 and a 338/06 and 35 Whelen. I got side tracked with FN actions and the Mark X Interarms, so the military actions were not as appealing. I still have four complete rifles on FN commercial actions, and one on the Mark X.

Yes. the Ruger 77 action is so-called "improved" Mauser but most would probably say it's not improved - the modifications are to enable it to be made cheaper thus more profit. The receiver is cast. The issues may be in truing the action, and rigidity. I don't know for sure about that.

What I do know is that the gunsmith who installed the barrels checked the action first for trueness issues and may have done some squaring. Since I do not shoot competition, and these rifles on the Ruger action produce excellent hunting accuracy, I'm happy with them.

BTW, I've owned and shot several Ruger rifles with factory barrels, and only one was accurate enough for me. That one was a 300 Win Mag. I don't own any Ruger factory rifles now.

The CZ 550 is also an "improved" Mauser and IMO the modifications are really improvements. The receiver is forged. All but one of mine have factory three position safeties. The factory barrels on the CZ seem fine. I haven't found one yet that isn't accurate.

I've had two custom rifles built on the Winchester Mod 70 action. 338 WM and 375 H&H. They were both great, in large part because the gunsmith who fitted and bedded the McMillan stocks did an excellent job. Much later, I got the bright idea of replacing the factory bottom metal with something fancy with the straddle floor plate, and a milled box. I took them both to a gunsmith who clamed to be proficient with inletting and bedding. He fucked them both up, with a sloppy bedding job. He had re-bedded the entire barreled action and neither were true.

I was so disgusted that I sold the barreled actions - stocks - bottom metal all separately, as parts.

Although I liked the Winchester controlled round feed action, I wouldn't use them again.

When I retired, getting all my guns and stuff to my new residence was a challenge. For a while I had most of it in storage. I had two of the Winchester short actions - push feed. They were pretty little actions and I was planning to use them. I had bought some fancy milled after-market bottom metal for them. Somehow during the move they disappeared. I keep expecting them to show up in some box that I haven't opened yet, but hope is fading. I think they were stolen.

There is a special hot spot in Hell for gun thieves,I would like to believe. I know how you feel ,kinda. Last year I had a C96 Mauser broomhandle in case w/ shoulder stock,+ stripper clips,take down tool,etc. along w/a 1914 Iron Cross.I'm still sick.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
There is a special hot spot in Hell for gun thieves,I would like to believe...

Agreed...

I was thinking about why I tried a Ruger action in the first place.

Years ago, more than 20, living on Chichagof Island Alaska, I knew a guy who had a 416 Taylor on a Ruger stainless action. We hunted and fished and went to the range to shoot together many times. The topics to avoid with him were politics, religion, and his fear of bears. He was an x-logger. He hated government, but made his living on tree thinning contracts with the US Forest Service.

He just pounded that 416 Taylor, hauled it around in a boat, salt spray and all. He shot handloads way too hot for me. He hated brown bears. There is no telling how many he gut shot, mostly from a boat. We didn't discuss it, except that I made it clear that he shouldn't do that in my presence. It was a condition that he surprisingly abided. The reason I knew about that (and he didn't know I knew) is because I was warned by someone involved in an investigation because of it. I was warned so I could avoid being naively caught up in whatever happened in the past, not to snitch. My condition that he wasn't to gut shoot brown bears in my presence saved dozens of them. I lost count of how many we saw on the beach, from my boat. Each time I could see his trigger finger twitching.

His "nice" rifle was a 500 A-Square, which I think was made off a 1917 Enfield - by A-Square.

So, he had a stainless Ruger in 358 Rem Mag, which he had sawed off the barrel to about 18". He didn't crown it and of course it wasn't accurate. He said it was a toy gun.

I bought it just for the action and stock and sent it to PacNor to re-barrel it to 450 Marlin. My mistake was that I didn't try feeding the cartridge through the action first. I just assumed it would feed. I had long wanted a bolt action carbine equivalent of the 45-70 +P ballistics - that would feed. I figured the 450 Marlin was just right. Many years before I tried one of the Siamese Mauser actions in 45-70, and it wouldn't feed right either. Now, I'm into the 458 SOCOM AR15, but that's a different story.

Well, the 450 Ruger didn't feed right and after having a gunsmith work on the rails, ramp, etc., it never did feed right.

So, I pulled the barrel and sold the rest of it.

I kept the barrel for several years. Then I got another Ruger action - this time one that had been a 300 Win Mag. I screwed the barrel on and tried feeding the 458 WM. Of course it wouldn't chamber, but I could see that it fed right out of the magazine and aligned right.

PacNor took the barrel in 450 Marlin (20" with 20" twist rate) and fitted it onto the new receiver. I presume they set it back one turn, for the belt. They reamed the chamber out for the 458 WM, and per my request - with a 45-70 throat.

After that I had three more made - different calibers, on Ruger 77 MKII stainless actions of the proper size and configuration, bolt face, mag length, follower, etc., for the specific cartridge. 6.5 Grendel on a 6mm PPC action, 308 on a std short action, and 9.3x338 on a std magnum action. And they are all very satisfactory in the aspects that matter.

I still use that 458 with the 300 gr Barnes TTSX mostly, loaded to about 2000 fps, for hogs. The only problem I have with these four rifles is choosing which one to use on a given day. They are all about equally my favorites.

BTW, I found this:

https://www.brownells.com/rifl..._30-06%2bSpringfield


Description
Specs
Build That Special Hunting Rifle With a Custom, Mauser-Style Action

All the best features of the Model 70 and Mauser actions. Claw extractor gives controlled feeding plus, positive extraction for excellent reliability. Traditional, reliable, standing ejector. Machined breech is setup for .002" crush fit. Convenient scope mounting with integral dovetails on a double square bridge receiver. Bolt features quick, push button disassembly, plus an easy-to-see and feel cocking indicator. '98-style, third locking lug gives extra strength. Positive detent rocker safety; three positions on .30-06 action,

CZ USA - 30-06 Length Action
Make : CZ
Model : 550
Cartridge : 30-06 Springfield
Finish : Matte Black
Action Type : Long

$579.39

It's out of stock and not available for backorder, but is for notification when available.


But this action is listed as available:

https://www.brownells.com/rifl...5%2bHzzxzzH%2bMagnum

CZ USA - CZ550 .375 MAGNUM RECEIVER
Make : CZ
Model : 500
Cartridge : 375 H&H Magnum
Finish : Matte Black
Action Type : Long

$716.92

Here's another listed but currently out of stock:

https://www.brownells.com/rifl...ge_1=DWC_416%2bRigby

416 Rigby

================================================

Also BTW, I leaned something from some authors of fiction writing. When telling stories of real life, some of the writers use the "Small Penis Rule". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyrkHH_7yW0

So, here's notice:

Anytime I tell a story about someone who is not mentioned by name, the unmentionable is that he has a small penis.

Just for full coverage, equal opportunity is important, I also deploy the "Big Bob Rule" regarding any females I might be discussing with undisclosed names.

The "Big Bob Rule" means that such females have and use large battery powered dildos named Bob. "B.O.B." stands for Battery Operated Boyfriend.

So many misconceptions and downright inaccuracies here, I don't have time to address them all......

You couldn't be referring to the small penis rule, since I have no such knowledge to write specific facts about that.

So, you must be talking about those things I wrote which I do have specific knowledge and experience with. Which makes me wonder what misconceptions and downright inaccuracies you don't have the time to address. I took the time to share my specific experience in hopes of others benefiting and maybe somewhat for entertainment - mine if no one else's.

With the 1909 action, in large part the problems I had with it were directly attributable to bad advice in the first place. Had I known that many of them were soft I would have avoided them. Had I known that heat treating a military Mauser action such as the 1909 would not be a sure thing as a remedy to the soft core, I would have avoided it in the first place.

Remarkably, 30 years later, much of that same bad advice and opinion is still out there.

What makes you think I am referring to anything you wrote? If anyone says anything that I think needs addressing, they will know right away.
Do not jump to conclusions.

quote:

What makes you think I am referring to anything you wrote?

It wasn't clear. You followed my post and I assumed. Please forgive me.

Frankly, I'm glad we have nothing to argue about.