Anyone have any experience with Nosler Ballistic Tips on Kudu? Gemsbok? Zebra? Wildebeest?

I'm considering the 150 grainer out of a 7 Rem Mag.

Bobby B.

Well not on the game mentioned, but on sheep and deer from my 280 AI I had 3 blow ups that led me to the 150 grain Swift Scirocco and I haven't looked back.

To Nosler's credit, they knew they had a problem and they developed the AccuBond, a bonded-core Ballistic Tip. I haven't tried the AB, but given Nosler's reputation, I am sure they got it right the second time.

You will be better off with either the Nosler AB or Swift Scirocco. I strongly suggest the Scirocco with it's higher BC, you will be much better armed. From 75 to 330 yards, it has always perfomed perfectly for me.

My own experiences with the scirocco were not positive.They shoot patterns instead of groups in my rifles,and copper fouling is extreme.I would go with either the tsx or mrx for large game.The 140gr tsx does a great job on elk and moose,and I hope to test the 140gr mrx on both in a week or so.

Yep, thats the problem with bullet recomendations. I tried the moly coated X in my 280, and it spit them all over the place. It loved the BT's, and shoots the Sciroccos almost as well. Each barrel has it's preference.

Of the animals you mention, I would think there are better choices than a Balistic Tip. They are all fairly large animals and the BT was developed more as a basic deer projectile. Personally I would stay with Nosler but move to the Accubond or Partition. Shoot whatever is more accurate in your rifle.

Ballistic Tip is one of the most accurate bullets.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I've shot a number of animals with the Ballistic Tip; 6 or 7 moose, the closest at 20 yds the furthest at 450, Whitetail and Muleys from 15 to 450 yds, 2 Black Bear at 30-40 yds, a dozen Pronghorn from 50 to 450 yds and maybe 75 coyote from 20-600 yds. These figures are not exact as I do not recall the exact number of anmals or the precise distance and some of the above were taken with the .243, the .260, the 7 RM and a 6mm wildcat spitting 70 grainers at close to 4000 fps. However, the point is that the Ballistic Tip has never once failed me and it's still the bullet of choice for me today.

The motivation for this post was to determine if Ballistic Tips react the same on African Plains Game as on the local moose, deer, etc.

Again, thanks to everyone for their responses.

Bobby B.

BTs are great target bullets, accubonds are actually hunting bullets. the end

Bobby,

As you can see, you get a lot of venom and prejudice back when you ask a question about Ballistic Tips. They are excellent hunting bullets for smaller big game, and do fine on larger big game provided shot placement is favorable.

I would not use them on the African species you list, even though those species are smaller than the moose you have successfully taken. I suspect that you take your shots very carefully on moose -- a Ballistic Tip slipped in behind the shoulder will drop one as well as anything else. Besides, the solid base of the B. Tip provides greater penetration than that of most rapidly expanding bullets.

However, the larger plains game species in Africa seem, despite logic, to be tougher than similarly sized game elsewhere. I can't offer a logical explanation for this. All I know is that I did not have any full body penetrations with .338/ 225 grain Nosler Partitions on any of the species you mention on my hunt last June. I actually took some 200 grain .338 B. Tips for the "lighter" big game, but opted to use switch to the Partitions (which shot to the same point of impact) after struggling to down a gemsbok with the B. Tips.

If the 150 B.Tip works well for you, then I'd suggest trying the 160 Accubond in its place.

Incidentally, while one hunting trip doesn't an expert make, here's the way I'd rank those species in toughness: 1. Gemsbok (oryx), 2. Wildebeest, 3. Zebra, 4. Kudu. This is from observing kills by myself and two companions. The oryx seemed by far the toughest of the bunch. Zebra can take a lot of lead, but they seem to have the steam taken out by a wounding shot and don't flee rapidly. It may just be the luck of the draw, but Kudu seemed the easiest to down. One even lay down and failed to rise with only a gut shot.

The Nosler Ballistic Tip is not the bullet for larger (bigger than springbok) animals. Use the 160grain Nosler Partition in 7mm. I had a 180gr BT fail to put down a gemsbok properly and switched to 180Partitions and took the rest of my bag with less than 10 partitions.

My brother and I have used 160 Partitions in FC Premium ammo to kill zebra, red hartebeste, gemsbok to name a few larger animals that come to mind. Kudude

Chances are, your PH won't let you shoot Btips anyway.

We all have had our personal experiences shooting game and have drawn conclusions accordingly. Sometimes it's difficult to accept the conclusions drawn by another if that said conclusion is in direct opposition to our own personal experiences. Sometimes the difference is actually in the experience and sometimes it's actually in the conclusion. And therein lies the difficulty; separating fact from fiction.

My 6mm wildcat loaded with 70 grain BT's at close to 4000 fps killed deer and antelope with greater observed effectiveness than any other cartridge/load personally witnessed including my own 7 RM loaded with BT's at around 3200 fps. It also cratered steel significantly deeper than any load out of .223, 22-250, .243, .270 Win. or Weatherby, .284, 7 RM, 7 Weatherby, .308, 30-06, 300 Win and 300 Weatherby. Unfortunately, the opportunity to test its effectiveness on moose never presented itself. Of the variety of game shot at a variety of distances, in my experiences no BT has ever failed to penetrate into the vitals even if ribs were met first including on moose shot at very close range.

I'm very interested in learning more of the details of any failure of BT's on game. Please do not misinterpret my words. I am not suggesting another's experience, if contrary to my own, must be false. I'm simply curious in regards to why BT's have failed others when they have never failed me.

Thanks to all for their responses and I look forward to greater details anyone might wish to provide.

Bobby B.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Chances are, your PH won't let you shoot Btips anyway.

To the contrary, chances are a PH will know little or nothing of various bullets, and if he recommends for or against a particular bullet it will likely be based on heresay. With a few exceptions, Professional Hunters and guides tend to have expertise in animals, not ballistics.

Bobby B., your observations on differing experiences are well put. Many hunters object to finding the results of trauma inflicted by rapidly expanding bullets ("tore up a lot of meat"). This is ironic, since it is trauma which is necessary to disrupt the animal's vital functions and ultimately kill it. The argument against Ballistic Tips is that they may (absolutely WILL, according to detractors) fail to penetrate heavy skin, bone, and muscle in order to reach the vitals. Your experience says otherwise. As I said in an earlier post, you likely place your shots just behind the shoulder on game like moose. This ensures that even the most rapidly expanding bullet cannot help but reach the vitals. Other shooters like to "anchor" their game with a shot through the shoulder, despite the fact that most any game animal can run better on three legs than you can on two It is true that sometimes a shoulder shot on a rather large animal may be dicey with a rapidly expanding bullet. That, combined with the chance that a trophy animal may give you less than a perfect shot presentation, argues for the use of a bullet that opens less rapidly than a Ballistic Tip.

As I said in a previous post, substituting an Accubond (or Partition) is probably a judicious move for African plains game. You may or may not achieve any more certain kills, but the "tougher" bullet may be more appropriate in dealing with contingencies.

I have hunted in a fair number of countries and also find that few guides are rifle and handloading nuts like we are here on this board. It has been my experience that it is the exception to find a guide who loved talking guns and cartridges while hunting.

That being said, I have had guides tell me before the trip not to use Ballistic Tips (I wouldn't have anyway), even when they knew very little about ballistics. THey were saying this based on several first hand experiences of bullet blow ups.

Stonecreek,

Thanks for your objectivity, it's most refreshing. I had questioned the comment regarding PH's and bullet selection as only one of the numerous PH's I've been in contact with regarding a future PG hunt in Namibia addressed bullet selection although they all did address cartridge selection.

I recently read an account of someone's experience with the 180 gr. BT at approx. 3400 fps blowing up on the side of an elk thus failing to penetrate into the vitals. First off, the vitals start immediately on the other side of the hide or on the other side of the rib depending on the entrance therefore it's difficult to imagine no penetration into the vitals. Second, I never experienced a single instance of blow up without penetration into the vitals with my 6mm wildcat and that was only the much smaller 70 gr. BT at a much greater muzzle velocity of 4000 fps. This same 6mm load broke the spine of more than one deer as well as penetrated the shoulder blade and into the chest cavity of more than one deer.

Not long ago, I watched a CD "Shooting Beyond Belief" and was quite impressed by the effective of the cartridge and load used to knock down elk; the longest on a bull was just over 700 yds,. the longest on a cow was over 1000 yds. Only later, after watching their 'How To" CD's did I learn of their cartridge and bullet. The 7 RM with the Berger 168 VLD.

Again, I wish to stress that individual experiences can vary. While some hunters favor 'pass through penetration', others favor explosive expansion. I'm still interested in some factual accounts of BT failure.

Bobby B.

I shot a lot of BT in a 280, and had some of the most violent, explosive kills on antelope I have ever seen. They literally died in the air. They entered the chest cavity and vaporized everything. You simply poured the remains out of the chest cavity. However, that is the reason I quit using them. Never a sign of an exit wound on five antelope and a medium sized deer. After the post mortem, I wouldn't trust them on anything but a perfect side chest hit in the ribs.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I shot a lot of BT in a 280, and had some of the most violent, explosive kills on antelope I have ever seen. ....

After the post mortem, I wouldn't trust them on anything but a perfect side chest hit in the ribs.

truer words are rarely said

Suddenly, I have a case of the giggles.

Bobby B.

I sold one of my Kimber 300 WSM's to a freind of mine. He was wanting to take it to Africa for Plains game and tried to work up a load with 180gr Accubonds but they just didn't seem to want to shoot they way he wanted. He had a load with 180gr Ballistic Tips that was 1/2 MOA but he didn't really want to have to use them in Africa.
Time ran out and the rifle went to Africa with the 180gr Ballistic tips. The report back was that he fired 7 shots in Africa with the Kimber 300 WSM and 180gr Ballistic tips. 2 were to confirm site-in and the next 5 resulted in 5 dead animals. I'll try and get more details on the exact species bullet placement etc.. LB404 owns the rifle so maybe he can chime in....................................DJ

Art S. Were your explosive kills from your .280experienced with factory loaded ammo @ around 3000 fps with 140 gr. bullets? I used them for awhile in my .280 and had the same experience as you on deer. Mostly dead on the spot with mush made of the entrails.

I was worried that a big buck that may not go down so quick could be lost with no blood trail so I started handloading my .280 with 150 gr. BTs at 2700 - 2800 fps. The bullets exit every time with a shot behind the shoulder with blood everywhere. Excellent performance at lower velocity. That's just my experience. Merg

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Chances are, your PH won't let you shoot Btips anyway.

To the contrary, chances are a PH will know little or nothing of various bullets, and if he recommends for or against a particular bullet it will likely be based on heresay.

If that is the case, then that is sad. I would think any good PH would have some degree of ballistics knowledge based on experience with clients just how well or how poor the btip may perform on the various game animals hunted. Generally speaking, how can any PH not develop some expertise on ballistics when the game animals their clients hunt are "tough?"

My post was based on the feedback I've read over the years about PHs not liking Btips much.

quote:

Generally speaking, how can any PH not develop some expertise on ballistics when the game animals their clients hunt are "tough?"

Simple: Most bullets, large or small, fast or slow, frangible or not, pretty much kill whatever you successfully shoot them into, provided you shoot them into the right place. Three hundred pound feral hogs die every day of the year here in Texas with a single .223 in the heart. Mostly, PH's have the opportunity to observe the effectiveness of shot placement, not the relative performance of particular bullets. Hence a good guide will be conditioned to be much more concerned about where you shoot it than what you shoot it with.

It is only a small number of us "gun nuts" that know or care much about the fine points of terminal ballistics. Many highly accomplished hunters are not "gun nuts" either, but are consistently successful using plain-jane ammunition from Walmart in whatever good ole rifle they inherited from Uncle Fred.

Well, my 2 cents is worth about half that but there are BTs and then there are BTs. I've shot them in calibers from 25 to 375 since they came out and I gave up early on everything below 338 because they damage too much meat for me. But they killed like lightening from standard calibers. The 338 and up have a very different cup design. Very heavy in the rear half to delay expansion below the upper half of the bullet. This was done because the 338 bullet (200 gr first) was expected to be shot from the 338 Win Mag and they wanted a tougher bullet for high impact velocities. I've shot that 200 gr bullet in my 338-06 at deer-sized game for 20 years and never failed to have a through and through from any shot.

And having that experience, I would hesitate to take a 150 gr 7MM BT to Africa for plains game. I'd take the 338-06 with 200 gr BTs if I had to but in the end, on that continent, I would probably use a North Fork first. I like that bullet even more.

i think Nosler has redesigned the BT to make it tougher over the years. I think velocity is the key with the BT as much as it is with the TSX/X boolits. Drive the BT's in a heavier slower flavor and you will be ok, drive the Tsx's in a lighter , faster flavor and it'll work.. they are designed to work in a different manner but a smart hunter can get the same result with either..

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby B.:
Anyone have any experience with Nosler Ballistic Tips on Kudu? Gemsbok? Zebra? Wildebeest?

I'm considering the 150 grainer out of a 7 Rem Mag.

Bobby B.

Bobby-I use a 7 Mashburn Super a lot and one of the bullets I've used the most is the 150 NBT with 7828 pushing it.

I run it right at 3200 and it has taken quite a handfull of elk. Not the animals you asked about but I gotta believe in the same size range.

From my experience I have no reason to believe it won't work with total excellence for the job you have at hand.

This combo has taken lots of big game from close range (sub 100) to long range 500 and on.

I'd use it with no worries.

Now about your hot 6 comment and the 70 NBT's. I've used a 6/06 with a 70 NBT for a long time, fact is it and my Mashburn are both ready for a lope hunt in a couple of days.

But to my point, the 70 NBT just melts the deer/lopes/yotes and we've taken several bruins with the combo as well. And I to have shot some steel with the combo. Funny story I was with a fella who is a big gun guy, he kind of poopoo'd my lil 6/06 and the 70 NBT. When we shot the steel plates at the range one day when he saw how the lil 6 bullet made a bigger and deeper hole than his big maggie. Fact is he made me quit so I wouldn't beat up his steel too much....too funny to tell you the truth.

I did some guiding in Sonora and another fella from Montana who was down hunting. He and I did some bullet testing work on some big old cacti with the load as well. he bet me that the lil 70 wouldn't go thru this big old cactus-he lost...

Bottom line is I'd use the NBT and not fret one bit.

Mark D

I love ballistic tips...

for their accuracy...

and also their terminal performance capabilities...

WHEN THE MV IS KEPT BELOW 2700 FPS...

even the varmint bullets will penetrate like you wouldn't believe when their MV is around 2700 fps...

But you push them over 2700 fps MV, then at close range they will act like a varmint bullet... destroying a lot of meat, leaving tons of blood shot meat... or on large game leaving nasty shallow wounds...that they will die from.. in about a week...

Use them within there parameters, and they will do an excellent job... you want higher MV than 2700 fps, use a Partition or Barnes...

My four sons and I have been using Nosler Ballistic Tips 180g in various 300 Win mags with velocities around 3050 fps. Most of the shooting was done at longer ranges (350+ yards) and the performance has been devestating on the elk and larger deer at those long ranges. I think that once the velocity at impact slows down mainly due to the distance of bullet travel, that the penetration aspect of the bullet becomes more pronounced. I called up Nosler and talked to one of their tech guys about using NBT in a 300 WinMag. He indicated that their problem in designing a .308 180g bullet was trying to fit performance into a bullet that would function for an Eastern deer hunter using a .308 at 50 yards on a small whitetail to a 300 Ultra mag being used in the West on a huge bull elk at 500 yards. He recommended using the NBT if shoulder shots could be avoided.

My Savage .270 loves BTs, I get about 2" goups a 300 yds. My H&R 25-06 single shot - Not so much - about 5-6" groups at 300. Both show the same accuracy variation at 100 & 200 yards.

The BT are good accurate bullets (usually) but my rifles really do have thier own preferences.

my 375 H&H and 9.3x62 both loved the BTs (for deer) but then they discontinued them and......oh well. I am trying ABs for my 9.3 now.

I think Merganser and Seafire have it right. The Max velocity for hunting big game with BT's seems to be between 2700 and 2800FPS. My own personal experience coincides with theirs.

That being said. The 7mm Rem Mag is easily capable of driving the 150gr BTs MUCH faster than that. Behind the shoulder shots on the african game you mentioned could center one of their significantly heavy rib bones. If that happens you could indeed have issues. Many North American hunters have a hard time shooting an animal broadside with the vertical crosshair even with the front leg. Even if you know you have to aim further forward on african game it's hard to make yourself do it in the heat of the moment.

The Partitions and A-frames may not shoot as accurately but their terminal performance will be more forgiving. Afterall, you're not trying to kill paper. Something to think about.

Bobby B., like yourself, I've used NBTs all my hunting life and with great success. But, like any bullet, placement is important. They don't explode on the surface, although they may break-up. Breaking-up may not be a bad thing, since multiple fragments will tear through more vital organs. Actually, I believe many of the newer "premium" bullets are too tough and will pencil through an animal like an arrow. Penciling will allow the animal to run, and in heavy cover the critter may be lost. If I were to go to Africa and use NBTs I'd use the heavier versions, such 180 grain .308. Regards, AIU

quote:

But you push them over 2700 fps MV, then at close range they will act like a varmint bullet... destroying a lot of meat, leaving tons of blood shot meat... or on large game leaving nasty shallow wounds...that they will die from.. in about a week...

The eight elk and two moose that I have taken with the 180gr ballistic tip out of my 300 ultramags prove otherwise.All kills were quick with good penetration despite muzzle velocities approaching 3400fps and impact velocities that exceeded 3100fps at times.

quote:

Nosler Ballistic Tips on Kudu? Gemsbok? Zebra? Wildebeest?

Every one of these animals represents a $1,000 trigger pull!

I'd say that justifies an A-Frame, Northfork or TBBC.

BTs are accurate all right.....but I'd opt for a big game bullet and these "deer bullets" aren't that IMO.

More like $3500-$4500 in the States. Somewhat more if you amortize airfare to shoot them on their home ground but my answer is yes, I would risk the money on any of those with my 338-06 AI and 200 gr Ballistic Tips.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby B.:
Anyone have any experience with Nosler Ballistic Tips on Kudu? Gemsbok? Zebra? Wildebeest?

I'm considering the 150 grainer out of a 7 Rem Mag.

Bobby B.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I would risk the money on any of those with my 338-06 AI and 200 gr Ballistic Tips.

Tiggertate.....I'd be willing to agree with the .338-06.....how about the 7-Mag as was originally quoted?

I'm still looking for some A-Frames!

Good point, I digressed. I have no recent experience with one but if I sectioned it, I think I could decide based on the current cup construction.

Truthfully, I wouldn't use any 7 MM. For some bizare reason, my hunting rifle stop at 6.5 and pick up again at .308. Never was attracted to the .284.

Based on personal experience on game ranging from coyote and antelope up to moose, the ballistic tip kills better than any other bullet. I'm not interested in what someone thinks might or might not happen (theory), I'm interested in some objective firsthand knowledge.

If there's no physical difference between the hide, the muscle and the bone of the game I've already killed with ballistic tips and the kudu, gemsbok, etc. I intend to shoot with ballistic tips, then I'll stick to the ballistic tips as my experience proves them to be deadly on game.

In fact, my plan is to experiment with the Berger VLD bullets on local game then on the African stuff as well. Perhaps, the VLD's are superior killers than the BT's.

Thanks to all for their input.

Bobby B.

The NBTs are much better bullets than some claim.

I've never had a problem with them and actually have had them hold together better than many cup-n-cores on the market. They have a heavier jacket than most cup-n-cores on the market. I've taken piles of game with them without failure. The largest animal I've taken with the .284 NBTs was a large 500lb Russian, 50 yards with a 150 .284 NBT @ 3110 fps MV, penetration was through the shields and he dropped at the shot. I'd place that critter in a much tougher category than the game you're going after. Heck, I've launched the 140s over 3200 and had full penetration on cropland deer that were well over 200lbs, even on angles.

I've seen truck loads of game taken with NBTs and never has one ever "blown up".

That said, I don't think I'd use them on the game your going after. Maybe a 180 .308 NBT or the heavier NBTs but, not the 150s at high velocity. I limit myself to using 150 NBTs from my 7RMs to animals under 300lbs. You are going after some nice size critters, may want to give the Accubonds a go. The NABs shoot great from my rifles and the 160 NAB is quite devastating on game.


Good Luck

Reloader

I've shot alot of game with bal tips and never had them fail.I shot deer that dressed out at 220 and dropped them right in there tracks with 150bts in a 06 and I shoot 140s out of my 7mm08 no problem at all drop them right there never had to track one.If you want more penetration use a heavier bullet and as far as meat damage don't shoot them in the ass.