I have looked for .333 bullets for my .333 okh belted mag Elmer Keith rifle for years .I lucked up and found a bunch of Elmers favorite the speer 275 grain bullet .I was going to use imr4350 with 67 grain but that powder disappeared along with most powders with this virus deal . What powder is close to imr4550.
I loaded some 200 grain bullets with 64 grain of reloader 15 .I kinda used 338 win mag data but this cartridge has a 67 grain capacity when filled to the base of the bullet which the former owner said to do with imr4350.
I need to put the best recoil pad for the money on this thing because it's not bad with the 200 grain but this 275 grain will kick way more .The original one is rotten. I hope the scope holds out too this old 1917 endfield is a long action .I need some extension rings for weaver bases.It had the old weaver kind but they were extra low and I couldn't get 40 mm scope in them .Plus all my Nikon and Leopold scopes are too short in the body part to fit .This rifle is like new they took good care of it and it's been to Alaska with Elmer and he got 10 elk with it .Charlie O'Neal took it to africa and shot tons of plains game with it .Its a awesome gun just need some help with this I don't want to mess it up .The ejector broke the first time I used it so much for controlled feed won't mess up .ai fixed that problem .I want to change it to cocking on closing too if that's not too hard .It has a awesome trigger almost 2 pounds .

the ejector has nothing to do with the control feed.
<it's over here, the control part is over here>

anyway you can bracket the 4350 on either side.
H-380 H-335 cfe-223 one the fast side.
rl-19 4831 on the slower.

now you could use AA-2700 it's close, but it's also harder to find than 4350 on a good day.

My God! 4350 unavailable? Well, I can only say that comes as no surprise. Components always disappear fast during any crisis mode. I wonder how primers are faring.

The Australian manufacturer of H4350 shows it right alongside IMR4350 on the burn rate chart they publish.
H4350 is known as AR2209 in our part of the world, it is just renamed a Hodgdon powder so you guys Stateside think you are supporting the Don's Made in the USA

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
I have looked for .333 bullets for my .333 okh belted mag Elmer Keith rifle for years .I lucked up and found a bunch of Elmers favorite the speer 275 grain bullet .I was going to use imr4350 with 67 grain but that powder disappeared along with most powders with this virus deal . What powder is close to imr4550.
I loaded some 200 grain bullets with 64 grain of reloader 15 .I kinda used 338 win mag data but this cartridge has a 67 grain capacity when filled to the base of the bullet which the former owner said to do with imr4350.
I need to put the best recoil pad for the money on this thing because it's not bad with the 200 grain but this 275 grain will kick way more .The original one is rotten. I hope the scope holds out too this old 1917 endfield is a long action .I need some extension rings for weaver bases.It had the old weaver kind but they were extra low and I couldn't get 40 mm scope in them .Plus all my Nikon and Leopold scopes are too short in the body part to fit .This rifle is like new they took good care of it and it's been to Alaska with Elmer and he got 10 elk with it .Charlie O'Neal took it to africa and shot tons of plains game with it .Its a awesome gun just need some help with this I don't want to mess it up .The ejector broke the first time I used it so much for controlled feed won't mess up .ai fixed that problem .I want to change it to cocking on closing too if that's not too hard .It has a awesome trigger almost 2 pounds .

Maybe it's too late, dgr, but are you hurting the rifle's value by modifying anything on it?

Much as we like to make our rifles better to use, if Elmer Keith had owned it I'd clean it, put it away and buy another one to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
I have looked for .333 bullets for my .333 okh belted mag Elmer Keith rifle for years .I lucked up and found a bunch of Elmers favorite the speer 275 grain bullet .I was going to use imr4350 with 67 grain but that powder disappeared along with most powders with this virus deal . What powder is close to imr4550.
I loaded some 200 grain bullets with 64 grain of reloader 15 .I kinda used 338 win mag data but this cartridge has a 67 grain capacity when filled to the base of the bullet which the former owner said to do with imr4350.
I need to put the best recoil pad for the money on this thing because it's not bad with the 200 grain but this 275 grain will kick way more .The original one is rotten. I hope the scope holds out too this old 1917 endfield is a long action .I need some extension rings for weaver bases.It had the old weaver kind but they were extra low and I couldn't get 40 mm scope in them .Plus all my Nikon and Leopold scopes are too short in the body part to fit .This rifle is like new they took good care of it and it's been to Alaska with Elmer and he got 10 elk with it .Charlie O'Neal took it to africa and shot tons of plains game with it .Its a awesome gun just need some help with this I don't want to mess it up .The ejector broke the first time I used it so much for controlled feed won't mess up .ai fixed that problem .I want to change it to cocking on closing too if that's not too hard .It has a awesome trigger almost 2 pounds .

Maybe it's too late, dgr, but are you hurting the rifle's value by modifying anything on it?

Much as we like to make our rifles better to use, if Elmer Keith had owned it I'd clean it, put it away and buy another one to shoot.

As above.

I would not change it to cock on closing, but I think the folks who know who Elmer Keith would not care if you put a scope on it as long as no new holes are made.

As you state, it has been hunted already. I bet it had a scope on it in its life.

As for powder, seems like Retumbo was made for that size cartridge. I do not know how Retumbo compares to IMR4350.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

I do not know how Retumbo compares to IMR4350.

Much slower burning.

I would bet h414, ramshot Hunter would bracket imr4350 pretty well in that case. I would start with Hunter. Dmw

Hawk Bullets makes .333 bullets

M

My old Speer Manual for Wildcat Cartridges lists a number of loads for the 275 grain Speer bullet. Starting loads: 4831/55 gr., 4350/51 gr., H380/44 gr., 4320/43 gr., 4895/43 gr., 4064/42 gr.

Would it be possible to run 338 bullets through a size die to get 333 bullets?
It seems with a good lube you could push them through a Lee size die without hurting anything.
Leo

By the way, the "333 okh belted mag Elmer Keith" is the 334 OKH

I'm going to go out on a limb, SJ, and say that Wikipedia and 'American Hunter' may be wrong here.

According to Keith's An Autobiography, the 334 OKH was a full-length H&H derivitive (perhaps more analogous with the 340 Weatherby) and that the shortened 333 OKH belted came later.

The 333 belted I have was made by Charlie o'neal in 1943 .It is what later evolved into the 338 win mag .It only has 67 grains of powder space vs 75 in the 338 win mag .It kinda looks like a smaller 375 h&h mag .I make cases out of 7 mm rem mag and 338 win mag.Its easier to not get the 7 mm rem mag separated from my 338 win mag ammo. ITS A 1917 ENFIELD .THE rifle is like new almost they took awesome care of it .I am so glad I got the dies with it and bought another set of them. RCBS SAID they made less than 10 sets of dies for this caliber .The 334 is from full length 375 h&h mag brass .It became the 340 weatherby mag when modified later .The 333 belted mag is just above 33806 in capacity. ITS BEST with imr4350 but right now I can't find any .I did try reloader 15 powder with 200 grain loads.I cant wait to get this rifle to hunting again.The recoil pad and the scope rings have to be fixed first.

Sorry if you've gone through this, dgr, but your rifle may have been the first 333 belted ever made.

My Keith book doesn't go into years too closely but Elmer was still mucking around with the 285 OKH in 1939, seemingly before he realised more was needed for elk.

The 333 OKH may have pre-dated that but the short, belted version was two more developments down the evolution* and its use in a big action like the Enfield suggests a prototype, as its express purpose was to fit shorter actions. Keith even admitted that O'Neil and Hopkins were the ones who wanted the belted version shortened to fit Mauser-length actions, which reduces his significance in the eventual 338WM.


*Not to mention the .424 and .475 OKH cartridges being developed in between.

When ever Elmer's name comes up I aways think of Bob Hagel, another big 33 calibre man. In fact I am not 100% but I think he had the first 338/378 and Roy rechambered a 340 Wby for him. My first 338/378 was when they were still a wildcat and I had a Mark V 416 Wby rebarreled.

Elmer had the 338/378 KT which was a shortened 338/378 which from memory was done to make something more suitable for the old 4831. I think Elmer had Champlin Haskins do him a rifle. They have a very Mark V Wby look to them.

Yes Mike, I'm familiar with that Champlin rifle you mention. As with his Champlin 458WM (Sn 1), it has a trigger guard redolent of the 1848 Colt Dragoon.

Thinking of the year your rifle was made, dgr, I can understand a reason it may have faded in memory's importance: 1943 was the year Keith's father died at only 69; then Elmer and his daughter, Druzilla, contracted the flu and it killed her - at about 17 years. She had been severely injured in a car accident years before but Elmer's flu was so bad he could not go to her funeral.

The 1917 endfield rifles were cheap and easy to work with and very strong .The trigger on this rifle has to be the most perfict trigger ever made .Its around 2.5 pounds and super crisp and smooth .I talked to a friend who had Elmer as a guest of their parents house .They made .333 bullets for him . That was Fred Barnes I have 300 of those 300 grain bullets they made with copper tubing .They had some bad failures with some of the 300 grain bullets he took hunting with him to Africa using his 333okh rifle .This rifle has the biggest cheek piece you have ever seen and it works good .I need to get the scope mounts the right height to use it right .He had the scope mounted super low and had a Redfield widefield 3x9 on it which had replaced the original scope .Those Redfield scopes are eyebrow cutters so it had to go .I want one of my nice Nikon scopes on it .Its just the body of the scopes Nikon and Leopold are too short .I hope I get the recoil pad on soon I shot it with the old one which is so hard it crinckles when you shoot with it.I used a past pad which helped .

Im thinking the Leupold 3X or 4X might work for you, but not sure of your mounting system..Ive use Talleys, Buehler, control on Enfields in low mounts, weaver with these scopes an custom Enfields..Good guns all...

Somewhere in this scenario the 334 OKH keeps cropping up in my mind???

Are you thinking, Ray, that being built on an Enfield, this rifle is chambered in 334 OKH and not the shorter 333 OKH belted?

Looking through my book I can see that Keith did have a 334 OKH and that that was the rifle he used to test an experimental Weaver with a second horizontal crosswire, independently movable, for use as rangefinder and long-distance aiming mark.

It says he took his old 333 OKH to Africa in 1957, and that he owned several rifles with a .338 groove, but the only reference to the 333 belted I noticed was that O'Neal and Hopkins wanted that iteration.

How long is the case that works in yours, dgr?

I don't know, its been many years since I played with those two calibers and compared to todays calibers, they don't show me much more than nostalgia and that's good btw...I remember one thing about the 333 OKH and the 334, mostly they compared best with a 30-06 with a 220 gr. bullet or 338-06 with a 250 gr. bullet..Go figure.

Hi dgr416.

I use 67grain Norma MRP for my .333jeffery and a 300grain Woodleigh. It gives about 2280 ft/sec. I don't know what casevolume your .333OKH has versus the Jeffery case.

The 333 belted mag case holds 67 grains to the base of the neck .There is someone on here that had the same caliber rifle as me .I have 200 grain ,275 and 300 grain bullets .I have shot about 30 of the 200 grain bullets trying to get the scope sighted in good .The Redfield widefield was a good eyebrow cutter with that sharp lip on it .I have the only scope that will fit a Bushnell banner which has a scope body long enough to fit in the rings .I wanted one of my Nikon scopes to fit it but both Nikon and Leopold were too short in the body to fit .
Elmer took this cartridge to Winchester to become the new standard length cartridge . They blew it out and made it .338 caliber which killed the .333 caliber rifles . Its a cool rifle with awesome history .I hope soon I get this thing to shooting .I just found 10 pounds of imr 4350 powder and that should be enough .I do want to get some 200 and 225 grain .338 bullets to size to .333 caliber .I wish I had some more factory 200 grain .333 bullets .If I had more winchester 200 grain power points I would size them to .333 .I hope to hunt with it some this fall .I hope if I ever go back to Alaska this rifke gets to go .This rifke was made for hunting and not to sit in a closet .

The limited powder capacity you mention, dgr, certainly suggests the shorter 333 OKH-belted cartridge rather than the 334 OKH, but to put Ray's doubts to rest: how long are the cases? Also, is any case designation stamped on the barrel?

Thinking of powder usage, I've come across an article, '.338 Winchester Magnum' (Rifle 302), where John Barsness mentions Elmer Keith's fondness for the original military-surplus H-4831.

Was that powder in fact just IMR 4831 sold under the Hodgdon name? If so, when did Hodgdon re-source their version, causing the two 4831 propellants to diverge in properties?

The old 4831 also known as 4350 DATA, was one of the best powders I ever used balistically and I still have maybe 20 to 30 lbs of it,

It will get you a 100 or so FPS more velocity in the .270 and 30-06 and do it a about 40,000 to 50,000 PSI. fill up the case and shoot. It was military surplus WW2 powder..You could use two or three grs. more powder in any case and it was very popular back in the day. Mine came in a stainless steel lock top air tight 150 lb canister, framed in 2x6s marked US millitary..It was so good that at one time and after praise by Jack O Connor it was bring up to $75. per pound..I still have the container and use it for horse feed storage and pack in to came etc. I save the old stuff for a .270 mostly..but less all the time.

However as with any 4831 it was not powder measure friendly and grain cutting was horrible, and most folks weighed each charge. Todays IMR and H4831 gets decent velocity, its an accurate powder, but operates at much higher pressure..My .270 for instanced gets 3300 FPs with a 130 gr. bullet at very little pressure but it takes 63 grs to fill a case and allow seating a bullet, don't try that with the new stuff as 58 grs of the new stuff is about all the case will take as a rule without pushing the bullet forward overnight in some chambers.

Sambarman, if you lived here in the states I give you a pound to play with..


I in later years went to RL-22 and H414 in the 06 and got about the same velocity but at much higher pressure, but I could load 100 rounds of both without using the powder scale, and I like that but only if one knows how to properly operate a powder scale and has used his scale for a long time, but that's another thread..Were I loading any caliber today I would try to use a powder other than 4350 or 3831 if possible, and a number of powders will do just that. My powders in the 338 win are RL-19, 15, and 22 and they are great..I use H414 in my .348 after years of old surplus 4831, I went to short core but it doesn't meter much better than the old stuff..Just some new ideas that may or may not suit everyone.

As to the poster scopes being too short, purchase a set of extension bases, may take one or both perhaps to solve the problem, but it will solve the short scope problem..I used the inexpensive Weavers on my custom Enfields as and on my 505 I used a Leupold compact scope, unfortunately I don't recall how I mountedit but it had to be with some kind of extension base, custom or otherwise..

Thanks for the thought, Ray.

Compared with you I hardly dip my toe into reloading. The only powders I've used in my 338WM are IMR 3031 (for its inefficiency there, in order to make sub-loads) Win 785, AR2209 (H4350) and RE-19. Can't say which I like best but found Winchester's failure to give starting loads and then deleting 785 a little unnerving.

I finally got some imr4350 but I saw loads on here showing reloader 19 gave way higher velocity .I tried 64 grains of reloader 19 with the 200 grain bullets I have .I have not loaded any more loads for it yet trying to get all my reloading stuff back together .I can't wait to shoot the 275 grain bullets .I have shot them in my 338-378 weatherby and they shot awesone .Its a shame speer quit making them .I hope to get this recoil pad fixed and the scope straight .I got ten pounds of imr4350 and 5 pounds of the reloader 19 .I think the smaller case capacity with better powder and these 275 grain bullets will work good .The 338 holds only 75 grains to the base and the 333 okh belted is 67 grains to the base .Its the same length as the .338 win mag just looks tapered like a small 375 h&h mag case .It super smooth feeding that's for sure !

Thanks dgr,
and sorry I doubted you. I think somewhere in this long discussion I forgot your post about how you make the cases.

You certainly have a power of powder there, enough to wear the barrel out if shot too quick - and that would be a tragedy in the case of such an iconic rifle.