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Hypothetically speaking…if you bought a semi-custom rifle from a reputable builder like HS-Precision or the like in a caliber like .308 Winchester, a light weight short barreled sporter… …how good would you expect it to shoot from the bench with a high quality name brand scope with just random factory loads? Then with good hand-loads without going to the moon and back searching for a load? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | ||
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With respect to factory ammo I would simply call the builder and ask what they test with and it should shoot moa or better. With respect to handloads, I have yet to need more than 1 range session to find a sub .9 moa load using the OCW method in a factory rifle. But I would not purchase a "semi custom" production rifle. I would buy a Remington 700, have it professionally bedded, and rebarreled with a douglas stainless barrel. Pick a known performing powder for the cartridge such as 4350 for the 3-06, Varget or CFE 223 for the the 308 win etc and use a quality bullet - Accubond or Barnes TTSX and you are very likely to end up with a sub 3/4 MOA rifle. The last three I did that way shot sub 5/8ths. One savage and two remingtons. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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What's a semi custom, new stock, new barrel, bedded ect. Or just a higher factory. So many variables. heck 400 dollars rifles are very capable of shooting sub minute groups. I would hope one costing thousands with easily do sub minute. But the testing I have seen money doesn't always buy you accuracy. | |||
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If it were me, I would ask the builder what twist rate the barrel has, what bullet they test their barrels with and then spend time trying various handloads to see if satisfactory accuracy can be found. I have never found any factory ammo that shoots better than my own worked up handloads so I don't waste time using it anymore unless I want the brass. I'm not sure if these days I would expect a semi-custom to necessarily shoot better than some mass produced brand rifle as all modern production rifles potentially shoot better than say, 20 years ago, but the odd dud certainly still gets produced. I've had that happen on a Tikka .300 WM. No matter what I tried I couldn't get it to shoot. Put a new, quality barrel on it and hey presto ! It shoots fabulously now. I suggest further sessions with handloads using a variety of bullet weights and powders. If you get absolutely nothing indicating a load the rifle likes it might then be time to ask the manufacturer to back up their name. The load track record you have should give your argument some weight. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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With good handloads, .5 MOA . Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Lane, I have had 4 HS Precision rifles. All shot MOA or better with the factory ammo I use. I had two from Hill Country Rifles that shot that well also. I have a couple of new Model 70’s that shot 1/2” as well. One was a super grade and now was the Extreme Weather version. | |||
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No excuse for less than MOA accuracy, IMHO. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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you can buy a 6-700 dollar rifle with a moa or better guarantee right off the rack. shrug. | |||
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The question is not how to get to accuracy. Not that I am good at it or anything but I am well versed and knowledgeable on the subject. Semi-custom rifle: pick a basic platform offered and get the twist, barrel length, LOP, stock and barrel color to you dimensions. Each rifle is individually made and tested to maker specs. My question is: With a highly reputable company using good barrels and all the right build techniques in a caliber known for accuracy…would you expect a rifle that will shoot almost anything pretty good and be easy to dial in for sub-moa accuracy with good hand loads? Or does still boil down to each rifle being their own entity? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Just ask whoever is building the rifle what ammo they provide their accuracy guarantee with or if they provide one. Ask HS precision if you are buying a rifle from them. I personally like HS precisions warranty https://hsprecision.com/contact/warranty/ They look at it on a case by case basis. Steyr sends a target for their rifles. Blaser does not provide a accuracy guarantee or a target but I have never had an inaccurate blaser barrel and I have close to 20. If you are spending $5k on a rifle I would ask. Mike | |||
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Id hope it did better than 1 moa. Tikka's and a lot of mossberg/savage/ruger american will do that or better "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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Jim Kobe built me several rifles years ago. If they did not shoot sub 1/2 MOA he would rework them until they did. I never had a single gun need to go back to Jim. You get what you pay for, but with modern manufacturing tolerances, lots of off the rack rifles will shoot sub MOA at pretty low price points. | |||
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I would expect very good results with premium ammo (close to .5 moa) and questionable results with non premium ammo...maybe one brand of economy ammo shoots really well while another brand or bullet weight does not. I would expect to find a hand load that is .5 moa or better. | |||
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many of the custom guys use black hills match ammo... jus sayin. but a good smith will, like noted above, care enough to work a rifle over after testing it if he is not satisfied. your main advantage to having the stock fit to you isn't accuracy. you gain comfort [mediate recoil] when shooting the rifle and it can help you align your eye/s/ with the scope immediately,,,, instead of immediately after shanking your head around some. | |||
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ledvm. 1 MOA would be expected with a premium lower production (semi-custom) rifle shooting major brand factory loads like Winchester, Hornady and Remington, Black Hills, etc. If the group is centered on the bullseye, you're only off by 1/2 inch. However, why pay 1900 to 2500 for one? A Mauser M12 extreme and many others will get you 1-1.5 inches at 100 yards. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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What's the old saying....... Sacred cows make the best hamburger. Recently picked up a Sig Cross in 308 Win.  Shot four different factory 150 gr. loads. Three would not group under 1.5" The fourth to try was the Norma 150 gr. Soft points!  Seems that the rifle likes it. When it comes to handloads, I shoot groups over a chronogrpah in order to determine an acceptable accuracy/velocity/deviation quotient.  BTW, Sacred cows make the best hamburger. I figure, if it's a hunting rifle, first shot out of a cold barrel is more important than groups..... Or if groups are important, why not shoot the same target at the same distance on 5 consecutive days? | |||
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I'M a strong advocate of H-S Precision Rifles. They provide a Certificate of Conformance with the load and test target used to validate their 0.5 MOA for less than 30 caliber guarantee. I have been buying used H-S rifles at close to 1/2 price, in top condition. A good cleaning and check the screws is usually all that it takes, if that. I think that there are people cleaning out the cabinet, for one reason or another. I also believe that there is the hunter who didn't want to take the time to try various factory loads and gave up short of success. Then too, there are people who didn't use the correct load and make a poor shot, blaming the rifle. Tikka and Sako are also two other reliable brands that I have in the cabinet. If you find a used H-S Precision rifle without papers, get the serial number and call. They will send the C of C. I currently have 4 H-S rifles and sold a fifth. I won't hunt with a rifle that doesn't have safety that locks the bolt closed. H-S uses the Model 70 style 3-position system, which actually blocks the firing pin. Certainly the safest design for those of us who hunt with a round in the chamber. As far as factory ammo, That's a crap shoot. You just have to try various types to find the one that your rifle likes. I helped a hunter with a new Nosler 48 300 WM get it dialed in. It did not shoot their 190 ABLR so we called and they pointed us to the 180 grain AB. That was the answer. I have a couple rifles that shoot factory ammo really well but it was dumb luck finding the right ammo. For the time and money that it can take looking for factory ammo that works in any given rifle, I can tune in a handload quicker and cheaper, usually with the bullet of choice. | |||
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In the real world and on an average I think an inch is respectable on a hunting rifle, on a varmint rifle I like a half inch..but the bottom line is the smaller the better on any rifle..I can live with an inch with any rifle, My lever guns get a pass on 2" to 2.5" but most will do a bit better thats why they still live here.. As a kid on a west texas ranch most of my guns or me, shot about 3 or 4 inches, I had a 20" pre 64 mod. 70 270 that shot 4 inches on its best day, and I shot all manor of game with it, didn't bother me at all cuz I didn't know better  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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  Truth in advertising, these 3 shot groups were taken at 50 yards. Since I have a Leupold 1.5-5x scope on the rifle and I was shooting groups during initial load development, I didn't want my hold error at 100 yards at only 5x to be the determining group size factor.  I agree with Ray 1 MOA for big game, half that for varmints. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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The way you ask the question- I still feel each rifle is it’s own entity. The better quality means I would expect 1MOA with pretty much any major factory ammo. To get reliable 0.5 MOA, you will need to do some tuning. If the manufacturer has some sort of accuracy guarantee, then see what they use and go from there. Personally, I consider 3shot groups to not be groups. I like 10 round groups, but usually settle for 5 given time and money. A 10 shot 0.5 MOA rifle is dang hard to find, especially if I’m the shooter. I have just 2. | |||
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Why would anyone want to shoot 10 shot groups, or even three shots? My groups open up if I shoot more than one shot. | |||
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I have a couple of semi custom rifles. Both have factory barrels BTW. The short answer to your question is "better than me". In other words, the shooter is the least reliable component. I was tuning up for an elk hunt last year, here is the result from one of these rifles.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Depends on the caliber. And the definition of semi custom, for which there is no definition. It's either a custom rifle, built to a scope of work specified by the customer, or a factory rifle, all built the same. I know what you are going to say; don't bother. A limited production factory rifle is, a factory rifle. You AR guys kill me. | |||
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That last target might need resizing a bit; all I see is one white square covering several of my laptop screens. | |||
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Here ya go Tom  Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mainly for average accuracy when doing load development. You are right though. It's that first shot from a cold barrel that matters. How close is that to the point of aim you are looking for. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Yeah sorry this sight doesn't automatically resize pics. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I had a very good friend (the late Wayne Baker of Conroe Texas) who was quite an accomplished gun smith. Well Wayne built a custom rifle for a client from the ground up including barrel, stock etc. The rifle was in 264 Win Mag and utilized a 1st class custom barrel from one of the top 3 famous makers. The finished rifle would not shoot less than a 3" group at 100 yards. Wayne tried everything possible to correct the problem with no success so he finally replaced the barrel with an identical barrel from the same maker and all was good with less than 1"MOA at 100 yards and customer was happy. Wayne then used the take off barrel to build a rifle for his son and that finished rifle would also shoot less than 1" MOA. Moral of the story is if you have a rifle that shoots great ---keep it. No matter what the quality of the materials used there is no guarantee of accuracy. | |||
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Tells me the Smith did something slightly different to each of the rifles. Might have been so little that one didn't notice. | |||
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Most any gun will shoot a MOA sometimes, the good ones are CONSISTANT and shoot most loads to the same POI...Lots of guns claimed to shoot one inch did that once upon a time, lots of fairy tale guns and shooters that got a tiny group once.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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