I want to build a rifle on a Remington 700 action, a basic budget build, meaning a standard rifle with probably just having a premium barrel installed, no other accurizing done.

I need to be convinced why I would need to go through the trouble and expense of using 280 Ackley improved over a regular 280 ...

I find the all the AI stuff to be a bit of a waste of time. With the exception of the 250 AI and possibly the 257 AI, all the rest offer inconsequential improvement. Even in the sensible instances, most of the improvement is because of unjustifiably running up the pressure, not because of the small increase in powder room. For example, for some reason people feel that a 250 case can only handle 45,000 CUP normally, but as soon as you AI it, suddenly the case is good for 52,000 CUP+.

A 280 with a good quality 24" barrel will be limited most likely by the shooter's ability not by it's ballistics.

I have had both for years & i don't think the AI is worth the effort. Certainly no animal that i shot ever knew the difference!

the better brass you use will live longer in the AI chamber due to the shoulder angle reducing brass growth. If you just use any old run of the mill american brass, then throwing that brass away after a while and purchasing new won't hurt your wallet as much.

I have 3 AI's and they all perform wonderfully,..but match barrels can have a way of doing that.

I love my 280AI and have turned down offers for more than it cost me to have it built.

I had a .280 AI built quite a few years ago. Nice gun, used it for hunting quite a lot. If I had to do it all over again, I would not bother with the AI. In practice, the regular .280 does anything the .280 AI does, and there is less hassle with forming the brass.
- mike

I doubt seriously if even the staunchest advocates of the "AI" cartridges can find "proovable" advantages of their value over their parent cartridges.

The standard .280 cartridge is among the finest big game (short of dangerous game) cartridges and ranks well with the time honored .30-06 as a "go to and get it done" cartridge and to top it all off it's available in light weight guns.

If you truly want more power I'd suggest you look to the 7MM Magnums. Even then it's doubtful that you have made honest gains.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
If you truly want more power I'd suggest you look to the 7MM Magnums. Even then it's doubtful that you have made honest gains.

Actually, my most used hunting rifle is my old 7 Mag ... i was wanting to build a custom rifle to replace the 7 mag as my main hunting rifle(for deer) and wanted a non-belted ctg... I have considered a 30-06 also, but I just love 7mm's ...

Thanks guys, this is all great info ...

If you are a handloader, I see no reason not to go the AI route, if you are starting from scratch anyway, why not. I wouldn't AI an existing rifle, just not worth the cost vs perf. (new dies & rechambering).

I shoot a 280 Ackley. I hear a lot of complaints regarding AI cartridges regarding forming brass, no factory ammo, or the big one, the performance difference isn't enough to hang your hat on. And then one usually hears the best AI chamberings are first the Roberts and then the Savage. Then a big discussion ensues about acceptable pressures, does the animal know the difference, etc. Pro AI talk about increased case life, better ballistics, etc. Here's a few of my thoughts.

Forming cases is not a big deal. It's easy enough to do while you are breaking in your barrel. You can shoot factory 280 ammo through the AI, but that's not a selling point for me. I load my own, I haven't been to Africa, so I am not real worried about losing my ammo before a hunt. Increased case life, I don't really care about or pay attention too. If I get 7 reloads out of it, if I don't have to trim the necks as often, it just doesn't factor into my equation. Terminal ballistics, I have no idea if the animal knows the difference and I guess that it doesn't. So why did I do it?

I was looking for something a little different and I had heard very good things about the 280 improved as far as velocity and accuracy. So I gave it a whirl. I can shoot 140 gr Swift A Frames and BT at 3300 fps all day long and get .5 3 shot and .75 5 shot groups. I can push 160 grain bullets at 3000 fps. Very close to 7 Mag numbers and with a lot less powder. On the 140s, charges are around 62 and 63 grains of RL19 and RL22. It also loves H4831SC. I think that's a bit better numbers than you can get out of a standard 280 and again, not too different than a 7 Mag. Pressure signs? A few flattened primers during load workups and I did make a primer completely disappear once when I was around 3375 fps with a 140 gr. Nosler.

So is it worth the effort? I don't really see it as being anymore effort than a standard anything. That being said, it's my only improved rifle. I have several standard 270s, '06s, etc, and I love those rifles too. As far as the "extra" performance being worthwhile, that depends on what you are looking for. Is a 30.06 better than a .308? Is the 300 Win Mag better than the original 300 Mag, also known as the 300 H&H? Or why not just get a 25.06 instead of a 257 Roberts AI? My point is that there is a lot of different reasons out there to choose various calibers. My 280 AI is a pleasure to shoot and I don't think that its performance can be matched by the standard 280, but that isn't why I did it. I was looking for something a little different than standard. Whatever blows your skirt up.

I agree with prewar in one sense.If the 280 AI is just something that turns your crank, go for it.

However, I would like to see his loads tried in a pressure barrel. A 7mm STW throws a 140 @ 3325 at 54,500 CUP. A 7mm RUM will do 3350 at 61,000 psi. To get these numbers out of 280AI you would HAVE to be running 75,000 psi and probably a lot higher.

BTW, the 280 is no less accurate than the 280 AI - I recently had a 280 700 factory rifle that would shoot 0.25 MOA with the Federal 150 classic factory load. It is one of those few revered targets I actually bothered saving from the range...

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
I recently had a 280 700 factory rifle that would shoot 0.25 MOA with the Federal 150 classic factory load. It is one of those few revered targets I actually bothered saving from the range...

If I could find a factory remington like that, I would leave it alone! unfortunately, Remington is neglecting this cartridge again!

I've owned a handful of factory 721s, 722s, and 700s that would do this. You could have bought this one - I had it for sale on this site a few weeks back. Someone in the Southeast bought it - they should have nothing to complain about.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
I've owned a handful of factory 721s, 722s, and 700s that would do this. You could have bought this one - I had it for sale on this site a few weeks back. Someone in the Southeast bought it - they should have nothing to complain about.

My plan is(was) to buy a new Remington in 280 and see how it shoots first, then re-barrel it with a premium barrel if needed, but Remington doesnt chamber a rifle that I would want in 280 anymore. I am considering getting a 30-06, seeing how IT shoots and if I dont like it then re-barreling it with a 280 or 280 AI premium barrel...

Look on auctionarms.com, gunbroker.com, or gunsamerica.com, for used 700s in 280. Preferably one without the j-lock. In the mid 1990s the 700 classic was chambered for the 280, that would be a nice 700 to get your hands on - very hard to find though.

9.3x62,

I'm at work now but if I get a chance tonight, I'll let you know what my loads were and what I chrony'd them at. My hunting load with the 140 grain bullet is currently H4831SC in the 3100-3200 fps. I don't recall the charge but I have it at home. The 3300 fps loads all shot very well, but the H4831 just had a nice small cloverleaf group. I'd be curious to see what kind of pressures these are running at because I know a few folks that are shooting 3300 fps with 140s out of the 280 AI with no issues.

prewar:

No offense intended, just that those numbers seem to defy physics at safe pressures. A few weeks back someone presented some measured pressure data, cross referencing it with the "traditional" pressure signs. The results were a bit alarming - many of the tradional measures are erratic and may not display themselves until substantial overcharges.

I'd believe 3200 fps with a 26" barrel and a moly bullet with a generous throat would be about the limit of working pressures, but much beyond that...

Personally, I used to scoff a bit at the loading manuals, figuring they were always "lawyered" down to pressures that would ensure safety. However, now I have recanted a bit - if I want more power than moderate loads, I'll just use a bigger round. For example, I used to "hot rod" 7x57s, but now I just use a sedate 7x64. Safer, letter brass life (which is a bit of deal with 7x64), and usually (though not always) more accurate. It only takes one blast of gas coming back through the bolt ONCE to ruin your day... or worse.

No offense taken, but you've got me a bit curious now so I will gather up some data if you are interested. I'm thinking of the info. I have at home reporting these velocities, as well as my own data and some from friends I shoot with. 3300 fps is not uncommon with the 280AI. I shoot a 24" Lilja on my rifle and the throat I think wouldn't be considered long. I get good powder density but never a compressed load. Good std. deviations and extreme spreads have never been an issue either. No moly either, just standard bullets.

I thought my 280 Ai was hot shit when I was getting tiny groups with 3300 fps and 140 grain bullets. then I noticed how easy it was to remove a primer, adn how even easier it was to fit new primers. and I was not taking much out of the primer pockets with the cleaning brush. then a few sticky bolts at 100F temperatures, and I backed off a grain and a half. with a 26 inch barrel. I use 3200 fps with 140 grain, 3100 fps with 150 grain, and 3000 fps with 160 grains as maximum velocities with my 26 inch barrelled 280 AI. I have just built a 25 inch and a 24 inch barrel rifle on the same L691 Sako Action, all with light contour fluted barrels. I believe I will reduce my "expectations" for these shorter barrels by 50fps per inch, and watch for the signs very closely at that!!

Jameister

Over the years I have had a 280, 280AI, 280JDS and my own wildcat 280 which has more capacity than the 280 Gibbs. 3300 with a 140 and some of the other high velocities in my opinion and experience are really pushing it. I question if they can be obtained normal pressure limits. I only get a little over 3400 with a 140 in my 7stw with a 26".

I agree with your velocities listed as your max desirable loads--this corresponds with my experience with one .280 Ackley and 3 .280 RCBS improved barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by Jameister:
I thought my 280 Ai was hot shit when I was getting tiny groups with 3300 fps and 140 grain bullets. then I noticed how easy it was to remove a primer, adn how even easier it was to fit new primers. and I was not taking much out of the primer pockets with the cleaning brush. then a few sticky bolts at 100F temperatures, and I backed off a grain and a half. with a 26 inch barrel. I use 3200 fps with 140 grain, 3100 fps with 150 grain, and 3000 fps with 160 grains as maximum velocities with my 26 inch barrelled 280 AI. I have just built a 25 inch and a 24 inch barrel rifle on the same L691 Sako Action, all with light contour fluted barrels. I believe I will reduce my "expectations" for these shorter barrels by 50fps per inch, and watch for the signs very closely at that!!

Jameister

quote:

Originally posted by skid2964:


My plan is(was) to buy a new Remington in 280 and see how it shoots first, then re-barrel it with a premium barrel if needed, but Remington doesnt chamber a rifle that I would want in 280 anymore. I am considering getting a 30-06, seeing how IT shoots and if I dont like it then re-barreling it with a 280 or 280 AI premium barrel...

Remington has made a "limited" run of the new M700 CDL in 280.

I have one of the first ones to hit the distributors and it will shoot sub .5" 3 shot groups and sub .75" 5 shoot groups with the right reloads. (140gr Accubonds w/Vv N560 @ 3135fp) I got it right before deer season so I haven't had time to do a lot of load developement.

I had 7 leftover Norma MRM loads that were doing just over 3200fps. I will try some RL 22 after the weather breaks.