After reading this I just thought I had a 308 thumper load. I hunt in the woods with a 170 grain round nose Partition at about 2450 fps. Works real well on deer and hogs.

Many have posted the 220 gr. HOrnady, and Sierras for instance work wonders on deer, whitetail at that..which is positive proof they are not up to the job for which they were designed for, they without a doubt have to be too soft for larger game!! go figure! Its just that simple. They would have to pencil through a deer to be effective on an elk, Eland, buffalo or whatever..

Moose, Elk or big Bear are the preferred quarry. If I take my .308 or .30-06 hunting I choose 220gr RN bonded core bullets to maximize wallop and penetration for quick dispatch with one or maybe 2 shots maximum. Should be borderline adequate if shots aren't too far. Not good obviously if multiple shots are needed for it to drop or having to track it. If I see a Deer or Bighorn Sheep I wanted I wouldn't hesitate using 220gr RN bonded core bullets.

quote:

After reading this I just thought I had a 308 thumper load. I hunt in the woods with a 170 grain round nose Partition at about 2450 fps. Works real well on deer and hogs. Posts: 142 | Location: North Alabama |

This is a very nice game killing load.

Those that claim a 220 gr. cup and core bullet can out penetrate a partion of 165 or 180 and much less a 180 gr. partition or accubond have not done their home work and are just surmising from what they read somewhere, and called it fact..The only 220 that can compete is the nosler 220 g. and it only ties the 180 or 200 gr Noslers for penetration..Git a chronograph and a box of both wet and dry magazines, also use them on live game..Ive done all this with both calibers..I prefer the 30-06 with 200 gr. accubonds and partitions and even the 180..but the 308 is close with a 165 gr. Nosler so I use that bullet in my 308 mod. 99 savage for both deer and elk when hunting horseback..I shot my elk this morning with a 200 gr. 30-06 at 500 yard give or take 50..an instant kill with full penetration, a totaled heart, and a 2 inch exit hole..A 220 gr. at 2400 just isn't much more than a handloaded 30-30 at 2400 FPS..50 FPS ain't much.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Those that claim a 220 gr. cup and core bullet can out penetrate a partion of 165 or 180 and much less a 180 gr. partition or accubond have not done their home work and are just surmising from what they read somewhere, and called it fact..The only 220 that can compete is the nosler 220 g. and it only ties the 180 or 200 gr Noslers for penetration..Git a chronograph and a box of both wet and dry magazines, also use them on live game..Ive done all this with both calibers..I prefer the 30-06 with 200 gr. accubonds and partitions and even the 180..but the 308 is close with a 165 gr. Nosler so I use that bullet in my 308 mod. 99 savage for both deer and elk when hunting horseback..I shot my elk this morning with a 200 gr. 30-06 at 500 yard give or take 50..an instant kill with full penetration, a totaled heart, and a 2 inch exit hole..A 220 gr. at 2400 just isn't much more than a handloaded 30-30 at 2400 FPS..50 FPS ain't much.

Man, that’s impressive!

30.06 220gn Hornady RN @ 2450fps/2933fpe.

None better for downing deer-size game and up to at least the big black bears of the lower 48.

I once shot a couple of tiny roe deer, doe and fawn with a 30-06 loaded with 220 gr bullets. I was surprised that performance was about perfect. Adequate wound channel, and very little bloodshot meat. I would conclude heavy /slow bullets and small sized game are not necessarily a mismatch. Same can be said for the African tiny 10 and a .375 loaded with solids.

Longwalker,
so doesn't that tell you the 220 gr. is too soft for those tiny animals if its expanding on them..

Bullet construction is the key, bullet weight is nostalgic BS from days gone by..A 150 gr. Nosler partition will out perform all but perhaps the 220 Nosler partition or its ilk.

I went through that heavy bullet stage many years ago, I liked the look, and that's about all it has to offer..I even was convenced that round nose bullets killed better than spritzers, also a buch of horse hockey..

all this ever showed me is how far those heavy bullet allowed my game to run. What some are correct about is a proper heavy bullet does not ruin a much meat, but not much meat is ruined on a shot thru the ribs, neck, brain..I suspect most hunters go thru this syndrome at some point in their hunting career, but only for a short time if they hunt very much at all..

Actually Ray, I'm not sure the bullets expanded at all on those Roe deer. They are so small don't offer much bullet resistance. The wound hole looked kinda like .30 caliber to me. Killed 'em though.

quote:

Ray's been drooling too much in his oat meal again ...

If Ray's oatmeal bowl was full of nothing but drool, he would still be experienced, knowledgeable and civil in his discourse. You A.J.?

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell

Ray's been drooling too much in his oat meal again ...

His nurses at the home need to disconnect his internet access. Likely we'll all sleep better too.

That comment is out of line. It is disrespectful to a man who has a world of experience, and is kind enough to share his views on the topic I started.

If you are any sort of man, you should publicly apologize to Ray.

Refer to my signature line. Your comment toward Ray is unacceptable, and is not welcome on this thread.

Were talking about bullet construction, at least I am, and proper performance not necessarily bullet weight..

So you killed a deer with a heavy bullet, I dodn't doubt that at all.b Ive killed a lot of deer and some elk with a 25-35 and a 30-30, not to mention with a 22 L.R. Killed a cape buffalo with a 30-06 and a 180 gr. Nosler partition, all that is meaningless. The Hornet has killed cape buffalo..

I will stick to middle of the road bullet weights with proper velocity and proper construction for that chosen bullet..What the old timers did is of no concern to me, they used what they had, were given no choice. I have that choice..so does everybody.

Old thread, but just note that Hornady is now doing a 308Win with 220gr Hornady RN for the export only markets.
Cheers...
Con

And Nosler has a plastic tipped rn 220 aimed at the blackout crowd. That one is having some accuracy issues reading user comments.
Ray is quite correct on his comparison aren’t 220 traditional versus the 180 and 200 Nosler and other premium midweights. However the 220 Hornady Remington cl and sierra with just fine on deer elk and reportedly moose at ‘06 speeds. Also I sure don’t consider them any handicap out to 300-400 yards and that is 99.99% of anybody’s hunting distance. If you can think hold and break a clean shot, you’ll be fine. I have some 220 Nosler partition loaded up for elk next year with the boy and buddies trip. All I need is an legal elk to appear. And yes Ray the 200 or the 180 np would be a better choice for anyone other than me. Happy hunting to you!

I like to use the old heavy, round nose bullets from time to time....strictly as a nostalgia thing, ha. I shot a 200# Eurasian hog awhile back with a 310 Woodleigh/35 Whelen AI going 2400fps. It was a 30 yd shot. I could "eat right up to the bullet hole" too, ha. I will never kill a Brown/Polar/nor Grizzly bear , nor a cape buffalo...but I had fun! I too am a great admirer of the 200gr in the 30-06, but a 168 TTSX works terrific too! I loaded the 200AB in my SILs 300 RUM and it is a Jim Dandy elk round! Its hard to quantify a heavy RN as having any more "thump" ( and I really like to thump them too!) than a lighter weight that completely exits, ala Barnes TTSx, etc. But this life is short, and none of us get to shoot/hunt as much as we would love to...so experiment away is my motto! Oh BTW, I loaded the Speer 170 HC in a 30-30 Ackley to a tad over 2400fps. It penetrated about 18" of heavy bone/muscle/thick skin/fat on a 300# hog at 20yds. DRT, it never even wiggled or squealed. Made a silver dollar size exit hole. I would shoot elk with that load in the woods!

I use 180 grain bullets in my .308 and have never lost a deer. Last 10 years I have used SSTs; I get complete penetration unless it is a frontal shot.

What I don't understand is using lighter bullets in high capacity cases like the 300 RUM et al. I only use them for long range hunting/shooting where the wind is what is going to cause a miss, not trajectory. Lighter bullets just don't cut it; the 225 ELD at 3000 fps is amazing; as good as a Lapua.

I like to use the lighter Barnes in the Medium calibers, i.e. 338/340W/35 Whelen for a lot of my hunting. I "personally" think that a light Premium ( Barnes/ NAB, etc) cut a bigger hole than the same 180/200 from a 300 Magnum. I like to "point and shoot", but I also am not a long range hunter. I killed a big aoudad right at 250yds with a Nosler 180 Accubond going 3500fps from a 338 RUM. It nailed him, big hole all the way through. Having used a 180 Barnes going 3100 from a 300 WinMag, the 340W made a bigger hole. I like to load at each end of the spectrum; light/fast and heavy/not quite as fast, ha. I have never really used any of the 225s, for instance. I used the 35 WAI on two different trips to South Africa. I used the original Barnes 250X/2600 first time and later the 200X/2970 the last trip. Both bullets dropped everything right there and they both exited. The 200 had the advantage of being a "flatter" round out to 300. I enjoy the whole thing, but for me, I don't "need" a 300 Mag ( and they are great) nor a 375 H&h. I can do it all with Whelen or 338/06, 338 winmag or 340W.

Oh yeah, I have a hunting buddy out here who has used nothing but a Browning BLR he bought back in high school, 1970. Its in .308. He uses both factory and handloads Corlokt 150gr. He said he tried the 180 one year and , to him, it was a very slow killer on elk. He went back to the 150, even killed a big Bison cow with it! I would think the Barnes 150 would be wicked in it.

Of course 220 gr. bullets kill deer and whatever, it doesn't make much difference what size hole you put in the heart, spine or brain, and Ive seen the 175 gr. solid in a 7x57 kill and elephant with a shoulder shot..Ive seen the 220 gr. 30 cal. and the 300 gr. 375 solid fail on cape buffalo on one occasion each, the rest worked fine, and there lies the problem, consistency..I determined the bigger the hole in the bore the better a solid worked,of course.

I have shot most of the PG in Africa with solids in the 7x57, 30-06, 375 and 416 as targets of opertunity while hunting buffalo and they worked well enough..

With 220 gr. in the 30-06 or .308 there would be little difference because a slow 220 or a 30-06 has little expansion supposedly therefore velocity has little to do with its killing effect..Id call it a push...but I do believe much would depend on bullet construction more than anything else and Id opt for the softest 220 for deer size game...I know the old timer in Africa and the USA like 220 gr. bullets in the 30-06 and those old bullets show LOTS exposed lead in the front of the bullet. I know those old heavy bullets worked well in the .318 and the 7x57..I shot lots of deer many years ago with the 7x57 WW load with lots of exposed and it blew nice exit holes in Mule deer at any range and at about 2200 to 2300 FPS in a short barrel..I had a 7x57 milsurp carbine back then and it was fine with that bullet, quick killer..

To each his own, if it works, your on the right track, if not try something else.

I don't understand what could possibly be gained using a 220 grain round nose over a 150 grain spire point in a 30-06. (my figures are from a Hornady Manual). The 220 has a max velocity of 2600 fps thus 3302 foot pounds at the muzzle. The 150 has 3100 muzzle velocity and 3202 foot pounds. 99 ft pounds at muzzle difference. The 150 has overcome that 99 pounds deficit and at 100 has a 589 ft pound advantage. By 100 yards the 220 is doing 2211 fps and has 2388 ft pounds. The 150 at 100 has 2977 fps and 2952 energy. (The 589 difference) Sighted in at 100 yards the 220 will drop 5.8" at 200 and the 150 will drop 2.8" and the gap widens much faster beyond that. At 200 yards the 150 has a 677 ft pounds of energy advantage.

When I use my grandfather's Winchester 30-06 I use 220 grain round nose. Those are the bullets he used way back when. I am hunting at 30 yards or less most factors people fret over don't matter.
Always a pass through and everything I have shot just dropped. Would a 150 grain been better? Not to me, I am connecting with my long past Papa.

M

Way back in my youth I used a Win Mdl 54 in 30-06 with 220 gr factory loads while guiding for brown bears on Kodiak . I killed several browns with that combo an,did it with authority. Bear in mind this was at a time the 300 Savage was considered good enough to take brown bears. Later my father took that same rifle to Africa and killed a cape buffalo with it....but it took 13 shots to do so.
As for deer size critters even large northern bucks I would use 150-165 gr spitzers.

Sako 220gr Hammerhead factory loads chronographed right around 2400 fps from my .30-06 Sako 85 Bavarian Carbine which has a 20" 1:11 twist barrel. Blunt nose bonded core bullet so should expand fairly well across a wide range of impact speeds and penetrate not too bad. My choice for a .30-06 general purpose load for hunting Elk and Moose. And any other game I might encounter.

i touch 2600 in my 30/06 with the 220 partition using R22..im also going to try some R26 behind the 220 partition and see how that performs

Right, Nosler lists 2600 fps using Re22 in a 24" barrel. With my 20" barrel I would guess 100 to 150 fps less muzzle speed with that load.

Another option for a heavy .30-06 bullet is the 240gr Woodleigh.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I see no use or need for a 30 caliber 220 gr. bullet...

I killed my first elk back in 1966 with a .30-40 Krag that I borrowed from my Uncle, and I guess I was shooting 220 grain bullets from a factory box of shells that he gave me with the rifle. Since then I have hunted almost every year in Colorado or Montana with a .30 caliber rifle (.30-06, .308 Win, .30 Gibbs, or .300 Wby) for deer, pronghorn antelope, elk, and moose with 150, 168, and 180 grain bullets. Even my two Shiras moose bulls were one shot kills with 180 grain Nosler Partition bullets. In all of those years and many dozens of animals, I have never wished that I had used a bullet heavier than 180 grains, and especially in the short .308 Win case.

I used a Win. mod 95 for a number of hunts. I loaded it with 220 gr. Rem Corelokts, out of Nostalgia...It worked OK but the range was short..

I like the 180 and 200 grl Nosler partition and the Accubond, because no matter where you hunt you will get long shots and short shots..many here use the short range excuse, and its a good one, but don't expect me to believe where you hunt is ALL short range...I have a place in Idaho where the big bulls live after the first shot is fired, 90% of my shots are under 50 yards, most at around 25 to 35 yards, but on a few occasions Ive seen good bulles across the divide at 300 to 400 yards...I want a bullet that will reach out, and will also punch into the heart lungs with a texas heart shot..Why then would I depend on a short range shot..Elk are hard t come by these days, not room for mistakes...

What about Woodleigh 220RN SN? Anyone have experience with them? Tougher than the others?
They seem to have a good BC for a RN.

I have only shot one deer with a 30 caliber 220 grain bullet at the starting load from the manual I had back then. It was in 1963, range was about 25 yards. The deer was facing me. I was shooting a Krag carbine. The bullet hit near center of the chest and exited the right ham. It ran about 50 to 75 feet. The deer weighed 135 pound field dressed, 7 pt eastern count.
I would expect similar results with a 308, if you can come up with a load.
It seems to me to get boring just finding an accurate optimized load that matches a factory load. It's a lot more fun to try other things and explore.
Bfly

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:
What about Woodleigh 220RN SN? Anyone have experience with them? Tougher than the others?
They seem to have a good BC for a RN.

i m due for a test in the spring so not before may here.

i will try sierra, hornady, remington, woodleigh and nosler in 220 grains ....

i know that 200 grains nosler partition is a wonder on black bear ...

The if you really want to heat things up, how about this!! I have decided for myself that a light caliber like the 250-3000, the 7mm-08 or 7x57 etc etc. kill deer size game quicker than any of the heavy bullets from 300 Savage on up and the .338, 375 , 416 allow deer size game to run further before dieing in almost every case, albeit they do leave a good blood trail and don't waste a lot of Yama! I do like that aspect of using big bores on light game.

As to what kills deer, Ive shot too many deer with a 22 L.R. in Mexico to say some off beat bullet or caliber isn't enough gun or bullet to kill them...What kills game is proper bullet placement first of all, then bullet construction is handy.

I go now, my oatmeal bowl runneth over!

I've used my .416s on Deer and Bighorn Sheep. Might seem counter-intuitive but all dropped 1 shot DED right there.

I dont think I have ever used a 220 grainer in an 06. It seems redundant, and maybe even counterproductive. If knock down and penetration are the goal then it seems to me that anything a 220 grainer will do a 200 grainer will do better. I remember the old 250 grain Barnes slugs. There may have been a time and a place where that actually had a purpose, but I dont think they do anymore. Technology has relegated them into the dust bin of history. But that is coming from a guy who still has a box of 180 grain RN's on the shelf. I do get the nostalgia appeal.

I shot 61 Wildes and gemsbok on a cull hunt with a 30/06. Used 180 grain Scirocco, 180 grain A-frame, 200 grain Partition, 200 grain Norma Oryx, 180 grain Sierra Pro Hunter, 180 grain Speer HotCor, 168 grain Barnes TTSX and 240 grain Woodleighs. Shot 5 with each and recorded their performance. Scirocco was best killer, followed by A-frame and Partition. Heavy Woodleigh was middle of the pack. They all killed effectively, just some better than others.

If one just gives it some thought, which some have not, the 150 and 165 gr. monolithics from GS Customs and Barnes" TTSX BTs will out penetrate any 220 gr. bullet including the Nosler 220, but that's a close call on the Nosler best I could tell...All these pictures of perfectly expanded bullets are from advertisement campaigns, so why use them to make a point in this discussion? BTW perfect broad expansion indicates a lack of penetration, and you cannot have it both ways unless your pals with AJ whose oatmeal bowl is full of poop!

MOst of todays RN softs are just that "soft", and I suspect they would be deadly at very close range as the expand violently and creat havoc, but they come apart as a rule and that creates havoc also. these are the corelokt spitsers, The HOrnadys and Sierras.The tougher constructed ones like some of the Woodleighs will penetrate and sometimes drill a deer or elk with broadside shots, and penetrate real well as they do expand much at all..The problem is most 220 gr. bullets in 30 caliber are cup and core, and more or less unpredictable..If I were inclined to 220 gr. bullets I would definatly go Nosler partition, but they won't penetrate anymore than a 200 gr. Partition. Someone could write a book on this subjcct and the answer will never be solved to everyones satisfaction..fortunately most will kill..

We see praise in using 220 gr. bullets in the 300 magnums, but that's more velocity than a 220 can take in the cup and cores which most are making claims on..but if you have that same 220 in an 06, its going to penetrate and expansion will suffer..The same bullets cannot be use in both magnums and 270s and 30-06s, as I see in this thread??

Its just up for discussion, but showing a picture of a dead animal is proof of nada, other than a dead animal...All bullet kill, they just do that, how they perform under all conditions is in question as I see it...

If one really wants to see how a bullet perfroms then shoot your favorite bullet into the spine of a Moose, Bull elk, Eland, Buffalo or uncle Bill Brahman bull..Thats a real test of tough bullets..

One other reason nobody seems to care about anymore is a roundnose 180-220 grain bullet going between 24-2500 Muzzle FPS will expand and kill out to 300 yds in a 308, if you learn the trajectories. My point is you can eat right up to the bullet hole. I grew up with a 308 and heavy bullets and caught hell if I ruined too much meat.

Outside of the bullet weight question, I'm of the opinion that a round nose bullet transfers energy into the target a little better than a pointed one does. That's the idea behind the new Winchester bullets that have a plastic tip in front of the blunt shaped bullet. Sorry I can't remember the name of them.

The flat nose bullet has long been one of the features that contributed to the effectiveness of the otherwise small .30-30 round. Unfortunately because of the long range fad that's currently going on round nose bullets aren't very popular anymore. Too bad because at the ranges that animals are most commonly shot at bullet shape doesn't contribute much to the trajectory difference between the two.

Don't get me wrong, posting a picture is fine, everyone enjoys seeing your kill, didn't mean it in that since..Just saying I killed one animal with a bullet is proof in the pudding was my intention, it takes a great number of kills to prove a bullet IMO..Sorry if I failed to get my point across...

I believe those that use a certain weight of bullet, or a certain brand of bullet have added a lot to this thread, its a discussion not a challenge, and all the posts have something to add, that's what these discussions are about, opinnions and the results gained by all..A proper example is I have seen many animals run up to and beyond shot with a big bore such as a .416 Rem or 375 H&H, others have had instant knockdowns. I have no doubt of this, it just happens in most all instances..Probably bullet construction is the key, along with velocity, bullet design and other considerations such as range etc..