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280 Ross Commercial Model 1910 - Sniper rifle from WWI
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Hello all,

Here's a dandy that I recently acquired. A 280 Ross that was set-up as a Sniper rifle for WWI.

First a little History.
Ross rifles have been somewhat shunned over the years because it is possible to assemble the bolt incorrectly, which results in having the bolt blast back into the shooter's face with deadly results. But for the most part, it takes a complete idiot to do this, and Darwin's Law eliminates these individuals from the breeding pool. If you look at picture 6, you can see the locking lugs positioned approximately 1" ahead of the bolt sleeve. When the bolt is assembled incorrectly, there is no such space, and the locking lugs are nearly touching the bolt sleeve. In addition, when assembled correctly, you can observe the locking lugs "rotating" into lock-up position, as you slowly close the bolt. When the bolt is assembled incorrectly, there is no rotation of the locking lugs - hence no lock-up and a disaster forthcoming. The last picture shows both the SAFE and the UNSAFE position of the assembled bolt.

Now, back to my rifle.
For the most part this is a standard model 1910 Commercial, but it has had a few modifications. A bridge rail for mounting the 4-1/2 power scope has been added. This rail mounting allows the scope to be positioned forward or backward to set eye relief. Also, this rifle has a Silver's Recoil pad added. It has a 26" barrel, weighs 9 pounds with the scope, and has a 14-1/4" LOP.

Under the scope mounting there is a pop-up peep site. There is also a fold-down barrel mounted rear sight marked "500".

I've advertised in the Classified section looking for some used dies and brass, but haven't found either. I've now ordered new brass and new dies and will be reporting range results soon.

Here's a few pictures.

As always, comments are welcome.




















" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

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Posts: 2099 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Those are some skinny scope rings.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10042 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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That's one hell of cool rifle. How did you come into possession of it?
 
Posts: 939 | Location: Grants Pass, OR | Registered: 24 September 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Those are some skinny scope rings.

Hello Mike_Dettorre,
Thanks for the reply.

The rings are not attached to the scope. They are larger than the scope tube and there are two screws (one top and one bottom) that screw into the scope tube. I havent shot it yet to see how this works.

. . .

quote:
Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
That's one hell of cool rifle. How did you come into possession of it?

Hello B L O'Connor,
Thanks for the reply.

It was purchased from the family of the Canadian soldier that used it in WWI.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

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Posts: 2099 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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As always, a very unique rifle. Thank you.
 
Posts: 10587 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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hey man, REALLY cool rifle. so few ross commercial rifles show up these days.

look, i am saying tthis like my arm was around a buddy's sholders, but that was not in the Great War. there are a bunch of really c ool stories about the Great War. but that does NOT take away one iota from the rifle. i think it is great and would love to have one just like it.

i think ross had 4 different rifles that it called the M10, or 10. those goofy canuks! if you are interested in ross history get "the ross rifle story." that is by far the best single source of info related to your rifle.they can be difficult to find now and i have seen crazy prices for them. i woud not pay over $100 for it myself, and have and do pay more than that for other books. there is not m,uch in there to answer most sporter questions. but it does anwser some and it tells a nice history of mr. ross and the rifles he made.

properly headstamped brass is available fro rcc cartridge. it is also one of the easiest cartridge conversions to make. the .375 ruger was a god-send to folks needing .280 brass. the rim will be a little smmaller, but it makes zero difference in using.

bullets can be had from a few manufacturers, but i consider them the weakppoint.

most folks go ch4d for dies.

for powder charge i was using something like a certain percentage of 7x61 S&H or 7mm weatherby, or something like that. don't remember exactly. i have some stuff written down that i think is good.

have fun shooting it at the range this summer and then go take it to the field this fall!

one thing to not is that i think they could possible have softer barrel steel. that is FAR from something that is known at this point. justr going off of some thinggs i have read. plus the .280 is a wonderful design for burning up a barrel throat. so just keep tht in mind when you are target shooting this summer.

when you load your very first .280 cartridge and hold it in your hand, you are likely to instantly think the word "ackley!" many of us do.

that's a really cool rig you have there and hope it is shot this summer and fall!

you can email me about it if you want to.
 
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004Reply With Quote
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Beautiful find, genuine factory sporter (not a sporterized milsurp), and with the coveted Porter Peep Sight too. I'm beyond envious!

About ammo: I know of someone who has some factory Kynoch in the original boxes; it's in the States, so it's no good to me. The price he was talking wasn't cheap, but it was reasonable. PM me if you're interested. If you're going to adapt brass from other cartridges, there's a man down in Oz who uses .300 Win Mag with good results, and he much prefers it to .375. There's a very detailed thread on nitroexpress covering this.

Just to nit-pick: The family said he used it in WWI. I'd doubt that. He undoubtedly started out with the military Ross in .303 (if he served prior to 1916), but the .280 was a sporting and target round, and was never military issue (much to Sir Charles' disappointment!) The only possible exception might be, if it were one of the sporting rifles donated to the sniping program on the Western Front. In "Sniping in France", Hesketh-Prichard relates how he used his leave back in England to gather up scoped hunting rifles from his affluent chums for his sniper school. Others did the same, and also heavy DG rifles for use against the German steel sniper blinds. If this Canadian were a sniper/scout in France, there's a slim possibility that he used a .280, but he would never have been allowed to bring it home. More likely he admired the .280 Ross and later picked up this one on the home market, when they were unappreciated and going cheap. When I should have bought some...

Either way, it's a great find. You're a lucky man!
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: 01 January 2019Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
hey man, REALLY cool rifle. so few ross commercial rifles show up these days. ........ bullets can be had from a few manufacturers, but i consider them the weakppoint.
most folks go ch4d for dies.

Hello Marc Stokeld,
Thanks for the reply.

Just today, the family that sold me the rifle, gave me 50 pcs of HDS 280 Ross brass, and a used set of Lee Custom dies that included a Factory crimp die - right after I bought 40 pcs of Quality Cartridge brass, and a new set of C&H dies - both of which also arrived today. .... it figures ... I intend to sell both, or send them back.

Bullets are no problem. About 8 years ago I bought an experimental 280 OKH rifle that belonged to Elmer Keith back in the 1930's. It has a .287 dia bore. I had Dave Corbin make me a bump-up swage die so I can take any .284 dia 7mm bullet, and bump-it-up to .287 dia.

quote:
Originally posted by cdsx:
Beautiful find, genuine factory sporter (not a sporterized milsurp), and with the coveted Porter Peep Sight too. I'm beyond envious!

About ammo: I know of someone who has some factory Kynoch in the original boxes; it's in the States, so it's no good to me. The price he was talking wasn't cheap, but it was reasonable. PM me if you're interested. If you're going to adapt brass from other cartridges, there's a man down in Oz who uses .300 Win Mag with good results, and he much prefers it to .375. There's a very detailed thread on nitroexpress covering this. ..... Either way, it's a great find. You're a lucky man!

Hello cdsx,
Thanks for the reply.

It looks like I'm all set, and should be shooting the rifle very soon.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2099 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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You lucky dog! Next week I'm going to get you to pick my lottery numbers for me. Some people are fortunate enough to get a good deal once in a moon. You seem walk through life picking up pieces of history the way the rest of us pick up parking tickets.

Unless you have a close personal friend who's already asked, please keep me in mind for the used dies, if you decide to sell them. And please do keep us up to date on your progress. This is a great story.
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: 01 January 2019Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by cdsx:
You lucky dog! Next week I'm going to get you to pick my lottery numbers for me. Some people are fortunate enough to get a good deal once in a moon. You seem walk through life picking up pieces of history the way the rest of us pick up parking tickets.

Unless you have a close personal friend who's already asked, please keep me in mind for the used dies, if you decide to sell them. And please do keep us up to date on your progress. This is a great story.

Hello cdsx,
Thanks for the reply.

I've had mixed sucess picking lottery numbers.

I sent you a PM.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2099 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Tha is one KEWL rifle.
So the "spacer" was left out of the bolt assembly in the second/incorrect assembly picture?
 
Posts: 4223 | Location: TN USA | Registered: 17 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TCLouis:
Tha is one KEWL rifle.
So the "spacer" was left out of the bolt assembly in the second/incorrect assembly picture?

Hello TCLouis,
Thanks for the reply.

There is no spacer. That's the bright bolt. The dark blue is the bolt sleeve. In the top picture the bolt sticks out of the sleeve over 1 inch. "correct" In the bottom picture the bolt sticks out of the sleeve about 1/8". "in-correct" and "dangerous".


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2099 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TCLouis:
Tha is one KEWL rifle.
So the "spacer" was left out of the bolt assembly in the second/incorrect assembly picture?


If I may: No spacer, no parts left out. It's exactly the same assembly, but all you have to do is install the bolt with the helix in the wrong alignment in the sleeve, and presto! The bolt will seat and fire without the lugs far enough forward to engage their slots. If you fire it, the bolt shoots back against the (minimal) bolt stop. Even if the stop holds, it can still punch your cheek. If it doesn't hold....

There are several youtube videos demonstrating correct/incorrect bolt assembly or the consequences thereof. Just search Ross rifle.
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: 01 January 2019Reply With Quote
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Sorry for the hijack Buckstix. You posted just before I hit send.
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: 01 January 2019Reply With Quote
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Hello cdsx,
Thanks for the reply.

I'm amazed that accidents could take place with such obvious signs of incorrect bolt assembly.

BTW - I've got some extra NEW Quality Cartridge 280 Ross brass available if you know anyone that needs some. Just posted it in the classified section.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2099 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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As always, comments are welcome.


I have a 1905 Ross, it is a very accurate rifle. When I heard there a chance something could go wrong I did a few test. I dropped the rifle on the floor with the but down. Strange thing; the bolt flew open. I had already fired the rifle with reloads. After that I decided if I wanted to shoot 303 British ammo I would put a 303 barrel back onto one of my P14s.

F. Guffey
 
Posts: 453 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 16 February 2010Reply With Quote
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on youtube a guy shoots rifle w/incorrect assembly. not much damage and no real damage could have happened to shooter.

man, that hds bruass is awesome. as good as it gets.

NOT going to get in pissing match, so this post is a;ll i will say about it. uusing belted magnum brass has a shell smaller than the chamber. think about that. the brasds is all that is holding back 60,000 psi.

it violates the safety rules in source i have ever heard of.


i have never even dreamed of sticking brass in an unsupported chamber. if you shoot .223 brass in .243 chamber? that is what a belted magnum in a Ross. .375n hornady is THE EXACT same as ross .280 chamber. speaking from personal experience

for bullets, i use>

wooodleigh

some from rcbs in CA, pretty sure these aree made buy guy buffalo sells. if not, at least on same equiplmment. poretty sure, noy positive

hawk and hawk sill make different weights for you if call at right time. ca1ll and talk to him.

can't remember what modern kynoch uses for bullets in .275 h&h

the big problem is that hawks turn inside outat low velocituy, much less 280 Ross vel1ocities. just speaking from experience.
these bullets re simple cup and core. they are soft. the ross is giving you 7mmm mag velocities. they have a lkong history of turning inside out at magnum velocities.

so that leaves you with 2 weights of woodleigh. i like woodleigh. i shoot woodleigh. i have lkilled wirh woodleigh. n i plan to kill with woodleigh.

however- when reloading, i like to have more choices than 2 weights of wo12odleighs and the same simple soft cup and core bullet. all ogf the others are the same simple hbullet that will turn inside out at 7x57 ammo, mucn less 7mm weatherby.

everything i have told you is from real world experience, not read from another sorce.

those hawks and others are great fgor t3arget shooting. i have smo of them and will definitey buy more of them. from hawk, buffaklo arjms, and huntington/rcbs.

and will JUMP on more .280 ross compqnent.s

and on the old kynoch, some guys i know ogf,k plus caretridge collectors will pay way for then theanross ammo is.


double especially now that .375 hornady rcc is (sometimes) out there.

and if you want to sell hds ross brass, please email me.! hell please holler at me when you see any ammo and stuff out yhere
 
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004Reply With Quote
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have you read old writings about ross shots turning inside out? articles and book that have stories about bullets turning inside out?


they were like buffalo arms, hawk, etc.

woodleigh is different.

i just deleated a bunch of writing i just made about the soft bullets and ross (7mm magnum) velocitis. but it was repetative. if you did not believe me above, you woulld not believe me a second time.

just speaking from real world experience.
 
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004Reply With Quote
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and to be clear on something - hawk are made from soft copper tubing as thier jacket materiel. buffalo/rcbs/ etc are a full, soft copper jacket.


the performance on game is the same. buut their jackets are technically different.

wanted to clear that up.
 
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004Reply With Quote
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I use 300H&H brass to form 280Ross for my M10 Sporter.
Never have had a problem. I use 7mm Rem Mag loading data minus 10% as a start line and never have gone above the starting load for 7mm Rem Mag. It's just a range toy.
The brass expands once and never has to again.

I load on a set of RCBS dies w/ shell holder I was very lucky to find at an OGCA show marked $25.

I have a box of new unprimed 375Ruger that I was going to try, but the steps in sizing are multiple and I just never get around to it.

Mine has the Porter rear aperture site. A nice addition to the plain single rear bbl site of one blade marked '500'.
The front sight blade is made from a War-time US steel penny. The rifle has spent some time in a deer camp I believe. The stock looks like it has been used.
The toe broken, and the repair was to just hammer the steel butt plate up and around the break!

Thought about a rebore to something else to make a sparkling new bbl out of it, but then it wouldn't quite be the same any more.

The back and forth about the bolt assembly problem and not locking causing it to exit or at least try to upon firing is easily avoided by paying attention to what you are doing.
Many of these were 'fixed' by the addition of a small pin rivited into the bolt helix raceway. That only allows the bolt head to be assembled in one position,,the correct one.

I can see however how a bored to tears soldier stuck in a trench driven to taking the battle rifle equivilent bolt apart just for something to do could reassemble it wrong when a hurried call to action came.
Cold, fumbling, shaking hands in the dark.

I have it all apart now for a clean up and fix-up. That stock needs a restoration in the very least.
 
Posts: 548 | Registered: 08 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 2152hq:
I use 300H&H brass to form 280Ross for my M10 Sporter.
Never have had a problem. I use 7mm Rem Mag loading data minus 10% as a start line and never have gone above the starting load for 7mm Rem Mag. It's just a range toy.
The brass expands once and never has to again.

I load on a set of RCBS dies w/ shell holder I was very lucky to find at an OGCA show marked $25.

I have a box of new unprimed 375Ruger that I was going to try, but the steps in sizing are multiple and I just never get around to it.

Mine has the Porter rear aperture site. A nice addition to the plain single rear bbl site of one blade marked '500'.
The front sight blade is made from a War-time US steel penny. The rifle has spent some time in a deer camp I believe. The stock looks like it has been used.
The toe broken, and the repair was to just hammer the steel butt plate up and around the break!

Thought about a rebore to something else to make a sparkling new bbl out of it, but then it wouldn't quite be the same any more.

The back and forth about the bolt assembly problem and not locking causing it to exit or at least try to upon firing is easily avoided by paying attention to what you are doing.
Many of these were 'fixed' by the addition of a small pin rivited into the bolt helix raceway. That only allows the bolt head to be assembled in one position,,the correct one.

I can see however how a bored to tears soldier stuck in a trench driven to taking the battle rifle equivilent bolt apart just for something to do could reassemble it wrong when a hurried call to action came.
Cold, fumbling, shaking hands in the dark.

I have it all apart now for a clean up and fix-up. That stock needs a restoration in the very least.


My hat's off to you, sir! Clearly a man after my own heart.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to see pictures of your project, if you're so inclined.
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: 01 January 2019Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 2152hq:
I use 300H&H brass to form 280Ross for my M10 Sporter.


I meant to ask, 2152hq: What are you using for bullets these days?
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: 01 January 2019Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by cdsx:What are you using for bullets these days?

Hello cdsx,
Thanks for the reply.

I had Dave Corbin make me a bump-up swage die so I can take any .284 dia 7mm bullet, and bump-it-up to .287 dia.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2099 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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