TSX's 'penciling through'...Well, I have experienced it, and have seen where others have too. I've seen a few theories, and postulated one myself, as to why. Mine, in short, is that the hollow point gets closed, or closed enough, that the bullet doesn't open as designed to. I have proven this to myself by firing .270 TSX's that I had 'peened' the tips slightly closed on, into wet phone books. These never opened up, and neither did some bullets that I had not 'peened' over.

Today, using the highly technical equipment photographed below, I got a little further empirical evidence as to why these usually great (IMO) bullets, may pencil sometimes.

While loading some 6.5 caliber TSX's, I noticed visually, that several of the hollow points seemed to be full of something. That something turned out to be copper! I used the precision probing device shown (safety pin) to see how deep the hollow point was on a two boxes of 6.5, 120 gr. TSX's. Sometimes this pin wasn't thin enough, so I used a stiff piece of 30 gauge wire also. I found that the hollow point ranged from virtually zero depth--OK maybe 1/256th of an inch, to 5/32"-3/16".
Also, as you might be able to see on the bullet nearest the safety pin, I used some sandpaper and slowly ground the tip away on a several bullets to see what the hollow tip looked like as the bullet tip was removed. This also revealed a good bit of variance in the hollow point cavity diameter, and depth.

The net result of all this, is that the bullets varied quite a bit. In the pic, all of the bullets shown, in the loaded rounds(not in the boxes), and loose bullets had tips that were minute. Not gonna open up IMO. The diameter varied a bit on the bullets that had deeper cavities too, I suppose that is somewhat to be expected, it was also the case in many bullets (over 20 per 50) out of a couple boxes of .270 caliber TSX's I had on hand. In larger calibers, I didn't have a way to tell, but in the 6.5, .270 & some 22 caliber TSX's I had, the size of wire that would go into the hollow tip, varied a good bit.


I will not be using TSX's in smaller calibers where I want expansion, unless I have checked the tips thoroughly before use. I have actually thought about taking a small drill bit, and setting a depth stop, and drilling out all of the tips on calibers I really like the TSX's in, especially my favorite .270

This 'discovery' has led me to be even more anxious to try the new tipped TSX, I already have a few boxes in a couple calibers, so I'll be doing that soon for a few rigs. I also think this intel shows another possibilty of why sometimes these bullets perform so well, but also will ocassionally 'pencil'. I realize this isn't a 'statistically large sample number', but it tells me all I needed to know, and confirms some suspicions I have had.

As SAEED has stated before though, all bullets fail sometimes, and it is best to have one that will whistle on through when that happens, which is the 'fail' mode on TSX's IME. I still like the TSX's, just thought this was worth a share.

Where's the pics?

Don, you know Rod (Rogers - Kalispell MT), and you know he is ardent TSX fan. He reported one incidence of a TSX not expanding properly on soft game (antelope). I'm sure it was a small caliber (maybe .277 cal?) and I'm sure you figured out the reason. Most of the bullets you found with irregularities would probably expand, but once in a while... Sadly, Barnes was never a model manufacturer when it came to manufacturing consistency - as much as I like their bullets... The TTSX indeed sounds like an interesting option...

- mike

Tyler, the pic is there for me, maybe you caught me while the link was getting loaded???

Mike, that's interesting, I do know Rod is a die hard TSX fan. Just thought it was some interesting intel....as I said I still like TSX's, just think the tipped may be the best possible version--unless they start offering depleted uranium for $15 a box.....

Fish,
nicely presented!.
i'm also a big barnes fan. QC should be a very big issue no matter who makes the bullets we PAY for. regards

Yep, it's there now.

I woul demail your findings to Barnes and see what they say...

I wonder if the incomplete hollow point shows up as a weight variance on a grain scale.

Hey Fish

You might be on the track of something here. I wondered a couple of times if I should hunt up a very small drill bit and open up some of those TSX's. In looking at them before I noticed that the hollow point holes did not get significantly larger until they got to the 338 caliber

.338, .308, .284, .277, .264


Here you can see some of them have occlusions or copper detritus in the hollow point


In this one you can see that the 270 bullet is almost completely closed


I don't see what harm could come of opening up the hollow points.

PS - Maybe you could weigh them at the same time and keep drilling the heavier ones deeper until they all weighed the same.

BTW - That looks like one helluva magnifying glass there. What kind is it and could I afford it?

I shoot solid copper hollowpoints and never had one truely pencil but IMHO its a matter of quality/pricing with the Barnes. I dont thing the US market will pay what it takes to make a good well machined copper bullet. Also they are too long by trying to remain withing conventional lead/copper weight/caliber groups ie 168gn in 30 cal0r 130gn/6.5mm
Check the quality of the CNC lathe cut hollow points on this 8mm and how they are packaged ( yes the design has a plastic tip now to reduce weight and increase BC but the uniformity of the machining puts barnes to shame.

Fish,

It may be why Barnes is bringing out the tipped version. ??????

Interesting post and thanks for the effort.

I had one pencil on an antelope a couple of years ago, shot with a 300Win, 150yds.. The goat ran off and fell over the hole was the same size on both sides. I still use the TSX,but not on goats.

This is a very enlightening thread. I've had a some 270cal 130gr TSX pencil through deer. The deer died but only after running with caliber sized holes in and out.

I just got back from a local hunt. One of my guides also guides in Africa. He no longer uses the TSX in his 375H&H because they've failed to open on eland and other large plainsgame.

Did your bullet acctualy pencil (meanig the bullet did not open)
Small exits in the hide do not mean that the bullet did not expand. The smallest exit that I have ever seen was created by a 130 grain Nosler Psrtition from a 270 Win. Yet the internals were mush and a piece of lung fell out of the Deers mouth when we loaded him into the truck.

Checkout the small exit in this Zebras hide




Now checkout the damage to the Zebras Heart



Did that bullet Pencil? INHO the answer is no....

I agree with ya Fish.....think you are on to something here. From the pics posted I'd say thats probably what is happening with all the different and varying depth holes. Good post....

Dave

Thee are people who claim the same about Nosler Partiton bullets. But I have never personally seen any evidence to support their claims, and none seem to have a bullet to show you!

IMO, you can rely upon a Partition to open, even at low velocities at long range. And the back end will remain intact to continue penetrating, even if it smacks into the critter right off the muzzle! Use Nosler Partitions-they are NOT obsolete!

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Small exits in the hide do not mean that the bullet did not expand.
Checkout the small exit in this Zebras hide




Now checkout the damage to the Zebras Heart



Did that bullet Pencil? INHO the answer is no....

JWP, good post - in spite of the somewhat graphic pictures... They sure illustrate your point!
- mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by woods:

You might be on the track of something here.
I don't see what harm could come of opening up the hollow points. {/QUOTE]

I think he is! I'm going to open up a few this evening. I'm curious as to how deep or constant the factory cavities are.

Thanks Fish!!

The smallest drill bit I have is 1/16". It is slightly larger than the 338 caliber hollow point. I weighed the loaded cartridge before and it was 525.7 and after drilling ~.425" deep the weight was 524.8.

Drilled bullet


Drilled and undrilled


The bullet gets pretty warm when drilling which is a little scary with loaded cartridges.

The thing is I don't think there would be a problem with the 338 size holes, only the smaller ones which will take one helluva small drill bit.

Thanks for the comments guys. Those are great pictures Woods. I am in fact going to 'drill out' the tips on all of my smaller caliber TSX's. I did weigh several of these bullets when I sleuthed them out, and the weight difference was not discernable between ones with a 'blocked' tip, and those where the pin/wire would go into the bullet a fair bit (3/16" or so)

I also can't see anything negative that could really come from opening up the smaller calibers so that they are consistent, I will use the smallest drill bit that will fit per caliber.....

JWP, I've seen your pic before and as MHO said it is damn illustrative. I can tell you unequivocally that I have had TSX's pencil through with virtually no expansion, no shed petals, and a wound channel that was simply a caliber sized hole through the animal. More than once. I have also seen results such as you posted, in fact early on with my use of TSX's, I actually posted to inquire of a fellow here who posts as 'Doc' and uses a fair amount of TSX's, if he had seen the caliber sized entry and exit thing, but with great results, he stated that he had, if I recall correctly....I have 'autopsied' several critters that I shot with that type of damage with the caliber enry and exits, but typically these were bang flop encounters, so I deduced the bullet did massive internal damage, and of course, in many of these cases, I field dressed the animals and confirmed such damage. I also have enough empirical evidence to satisfy myself that they will in fact just drill through sometimes too.

I'll look forward to ya'lls other thoughts, but I feel like I've at least found a possible answer to the oft posed question, at least in small calibers......

Oh yes, Mark H., I would be very interested in knowing about the bullets you showed, where a USA fellow might get some, pricing and other technical info, one main interest, is how long are they for a given weight??

I think you are probably right, there are few that want to pay 'super premium' prices, but for certain uses I would.

I'd be interested to learn more, Thanks--Don

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
I have 'autopsied' several critters that I shot with that type of damage with the caliber enry and exits, but typically these were bang flop encounters, so I deduced the bullet did massive internal damage, and of course, in many of these cases, I field dressed the animals and confirmed such damage. I also have enough empirical evidence to satisfy myself that they will in fact just drill through sometimes too.

I'll look forward to ya'lls other thoughts, but I feel like I've at least found a possible answer to the oft posed question, at least in small calibers......

Sunday morning I shot a pig, which was the first non TSX kill in over 5 or 6 years. I truly think that they do open up, but some of the pencilling is also due to the sharp petals slicing their way through meat rather than pushing their way through as with conventional bullets: I have seen massive shock damage to rib meat/subcutaneous blood on the entry side, suggesting shock/expansion and zero damage on the exit- WTF!?!?!?!?

I too have seen massive internal damage with deer; however, zero blood trails and small exit wounds. Shit, if I wanted that effect in my terminal ballistics I might as well use a frangible bullet like a ballistic tip (which I won't). Then you wouldn't have to worry about having to trail them.

The bottom line is I just don't understand what is going on with TSX. That to me is unacceptable- I need to use a bullet in which I have 100% confidence in. It used to be TSX, but no more.

Hi Fish30114

Here is the link and there will be a US agent soon I hear.
http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/
The basic simple rule is make your copper bullet the same size as say a 140gn/7mm rather than same weight. That avoids the bullet getting too long. New materials require new rules.

Mark

The idea of cleaning up the nose cavity with a drill bit is an obvious and interesting one. What worries me, apart from the time it would take, is how would this affect accuracy?? You can blame Barnes for many things, but lack of accuracy of their TSX is normally not one of them. How much off-center could you open up the nose cavity, and still maintain basic accuracy?? And how would you center bullet (or - probably less advisable - loaded round)???

I guess it comes down to testing. It is certainly an interesting option while we wait for the TTSX.

- mike

MIKE
my gripe with barnes bullets is that every so often one will do something unpredictable, come out side ways , bend like a bannana and some just pencil through with no expansion,and thats what worries me when your on a safari and you plug the animal with a bullet that you dont know how its going to behave, its a risk i will not take, its a game person that does... re drilling the hollow point is no big deal and will not effect accuracey, especially if done on a lathe, i have been doing this for years but going onestep further and drilling V shaped hollow points in semi spitzer bullets...expansion is a lot more rapid!!!
in fact i just spoke with Darcey Echols the other week and he told me a few of his clients went to africa on a cull hunt and were useing the tsx proj and were having such horendous results that the only thing that saved them was the swift A FRAMES which they had with them, as soon as they started useing them all was well
i guess it will be intresting to see what the TTSX will do
DANIEL

I would caution heavily against drilling into the cavity of a bulet in a loaded round. The potential for disaster is too great. Loose bullets are no problem, providing they are properly centered.

i continueto be amazed at the lengths and expense some will go to to correct a factory mistake.
as to IF its a mistake or just the manufacturers design is what i would question.
If you guys are hell bent on spending the money to buy Barnes copper bullets then i would want an explanation as to why the hollowpoint isnt uniform.
Mark,
iheard the same thing a year ago and still havent heard different.
http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/ will ship to the US for a reasonable amount. if you feel the need to go that way.

I just looked at 10 .338 TSX bullets. Two had cavities that would accept a #60 drill. The depth was .250 in one and .380 in the second.

The others had cavities that were smaller than a #60.


Of the remaining eight I could see the cavity was fouled with copper in some of them.

Mine have always slammed game, in calibers from .257 to .416. I have seen some absolutely massive bloodletting with the .338-210 TSX, shot a caribou, the blood covered about an eight-foot circle. I just think sometimes you shot game identically, they run, sometimes they drop no matter what kind of bullet you shoot. I have shot a number of deer with the .257 Wby and 100 TSX, all are down before the gun settles from recoil, and some were a long ways out there.

Mark, thanks for the link. Even on the english pages (english rifle magazine article) pages, I couldn't figure out pricing or how to order them though.....They look really nice--driving bands--I've often thought of that--and Rod Rogers had suggested several years ago to me that a driving band design concept would be a neat concept in 'standard size' rifle bullets.

MHO, I think your spot on with the drilling comments, and as mentioned by Gerard, no way would I take a drill or other power tool to a bullet that was loaded in a cartridge!!

Dogface, your intel seems to be consistent with what I saw.....

,,,,,,,,,,Sorry ,,,,I think yall are over thinking and over talking the issue ....................Animals don,t read ballistics charts and so don,t know they were supposed to fall down just because you wanted to see it ..........If you shoot a deer or similar animal in the chest and it runs 20-60 yards and piles up I would say the bullet worked fine ....

If you buy TSX's and they have copper inclusion into the hollow point they are defective. The hollow point is not just a hole drilled into the tip of the bullet but it is an expansion chamber kind of shaped like a star. There no way in hell its worth it to shoot an animal with a home made remedy for these defective bullets. Doesnt matter what caliber the hollow point should be well defined and clear of any material.If you ever buy a TSX and they look like the above pictures send em back to Barnes and ask for non defective bullets.

As far as drilling a loaded round, a cartridge that isnt loaded into a chamber will not explode! with out the chamber to contain and direct pressure anignited round would just pop the bullet out with no real force or danger.When you see movies and ammo thats in a fire is "shooting off" and whizzing all around thats a bunch of BS, the ammo would just fizz a little pop the bullet with no force, basic physics.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
,,,,,,,,,,Sorry ,,,,I think yall are over thinking and over talking the issue ....................Animals don,t read ballistics charts and so don,t know they were supposed to fall down just because you wanted to see it ..........If you shoot a deer or similar animal in the chest and it runs 20-60 yards and piles up I would say the bullet worked fine ....

well said, to add to my last, i have seen a number of whitetail deer taken by GM308M.

quote:

the ammo would just fizz a little pop the bullet with no force

Every rifle round I have ever ignited outside of a rifle chamber completely destroyed the cartridge case. The bullet usually moves little, unless the case is much heavier than the bullet, in which case they go about equal distances and not more than a foot or two. My caution was that, in the event of of the round igniting, the case will open up and the fragments and gas will be hazardous. Drop a loaded round on a barbeque fire and cover it with a container to see for yourself. Wear protective gear like that which is used by Shootaway unless you are going to back off at least five paces.

I agree with fgulla, the nose is scored with the x patteren, causing the copper to tear in to the 4 peatals. If you drill the nose out enough that there is no longer the x cuts what kind of tearing is the copper likely to do?

It would be of great intrest to test it out and see what would happen.

I am continually amazed at the people that will defend the BarnesX/TSX bullets even in the face of obvious defects. To say these bullets never fail to expand is the highest folly and their price even exagerates this. The same people decry the Ballistic Tip bullets yet one thing they will reliably do is expand as designed.

Mark H, I just checked out the link you posted and the recovered bullets look universally awful. Just like the early Barnes X bullets.
If I wanted a bullet to turn into a wadcutter upon expansion, I would just a wadcutter to begin with.

quote:

I am continually amazed at the people that will defend the BarnesX/TSX bullets even in the face of obvious defects. To say these bullets never fail to expand is the highest folly and their price even exagerates this. The same people decry the Ballistic Tip bullets yet one thing they will reliably do is expand as designed.

Me too. It amazes me the lengths guys will go to cheerlead for a product they have no vested interest in. Ra Ra Ra!

For me it is all about confidence with a certain load and bullet. IMO I do not like Barnes after I weighed about 15 (that were suppose to be 150 grains). Not one of the 15 weighed 150 grains. There was an average of .3 grains variance, that could up to .6 grains difference.

I then weighed my Sierras and Swifts and all were within .1 grains of each other and most weighed on the nose 150 grains.

I feel more confident with the bullets that weigh what they are suppose to and will not buy another Barnes bullet until they improve quality control.

I also felt that Barnes customer service was not very good. The guy told me that Barnes specs are with .5 grains of avertised weight. I said that was not very good and he said "ya so". Wow thank you for the help, click!

I do not care what they weigh they are very accurate and kill everything I shot.