The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Is The Following True Regarding Scopes?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I think it's that the finest scopes exhibit their excellence in the very low natural light moments, as the hunting day is just barely beginning, and when it's in its final few minutes, before there's simply not enough light for your scope to gather, to see your intended animal well enough to make a proper shot. Once the sun's been up for half an hour, (and when there's more than a half hour of good sunlight remaining in the hunting day) the "less fine" scopes and the finest scopes, can just about equally serve the hunter. StalkerJack | ||
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I consider "light gathering" a total misnomer. What makes a good scope is clarity of sight picture and ruggedness. The higher end scopes will have a better/clearer sight picture and IMO this lends to seeing better in low light. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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Yes we can call it light gathering; nothing wrong with that for a description. However, modern scopes all use optical glass and design quality that was primitive several years back, so the real difference might not be much. Come over and I will show you scopes from Zeiss, Swarovski down to Bushnell and you will see the difference at dusk. Sometimes you can detect a difference, sometimes not. I can tell you that some scopes are massively overpriced. | |||
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I agree that the glass in most scopes is roughly equal and much better than the same makes in bygone years. Personally, I value ruggedness and I want tracking that is accurate and repeatable. | |||
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I don't ever move the reticle in the field, so as long as they stay where I put them, ok. | |||
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I’ve only owned a couple of the more expensive European scopes but what I’ve noticed on one of them especially is during low light the definition and true color of the game animal stands out more against the background vegetation compared to cheaper brands. This is especially true in thicker cover which abounds where I live. It does seem for the most part with optics you indeed get what you pay for. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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It amazes me how some scopes images just POP when you look through them, call it light gathering call it sharpness to me they are better glass period. S&B scopes have proven to be better scopes in my opinion over the years but right up there I would say my Swarovskis, Zeiss and Kahles and some Leupolds are not far behind. The top end scopes are better but not proportionally, since there are a lot off very good scopes for a fraction of the price. What impressed me with one of my Zeiss scopes was the service from Zeiss Germany. This is a Diavari 1.5-6 scope of vintage era, I sent it in for a leakage problem and they repaired and reuqualified the scope after all those years I was surprised they had the parts, I am sure that aside from Leupold I cannot see any of the other mainstream companies repairing a scope after so long out off production, try sending a Bushnell scope in for repairs you will probably be asked if you want to trade up or be offered a replacement since most of these companies today are not OEM but are just private labeling products produced by others and do not repair their own scopes. | |||
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The scopes that seemingly "POP" are those with a lens coating that shifts the color spectrum toward the red, not those which transmit true, uncolored light. This is because the human eye is somewhat more sensitive to the red end of the spectrum than the blue, so it is a cheap trick to coat the lenses to transmit reds better than blues and thus cause the user to perceive them as "brighter". Nope, they're just colored they way your eye likes them, which makes for more apparent contrast because THE BLUES ARE DIMMER, not because the whole picture is brighter. Ironically, many scope manufacturers use the cheap trick on their more expensive lines so that upon casual comparison in the store the more expensive line shows greater contrast, thus causing the potential buyer to perceive it as brighter. Most U.S. states limit legal shooting hours to no more than 30 minutes before and after the sun is above the horizon. Nearly any quality scope will allow shooting in such light. However, many places in Europe traditionally allow hunting by moonlight, in which case features like large objectives and minimal light loss between lenses are very useful in a scope. The ability to actually see your target is, of course, an essential quality in an optical gunsight. But size, weight, structural integrity, waterproofness, holding of zero, non-critical eye placement, field of view, lack of parallax, and a number of other qualities (not to mention cosmetic appearance) are also important in a hunting scope. In optics there are unavoidable trade-offs. Look for the scope/manufacturer which makes such unavoidable optical compromises in such a way that the total package optimizes the scope's usefulness. | |||
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Thanks Stonecreek. I appreciate your insights. I learn something every day (or try to). | |||
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Hmmm, the peak spectral sensitivity for human eyes is around 555 Nm (nanometers). This is a sort of lime green color. As the light diminishes the human eye spectral sensitivity shifts towards the blue end of the spectrum (Purkinje or blue shift). I would guess scope makers using coatings to reduce blue light is to mask secondary spectrum. Secondary spectrum may be seen as a blue/violet edging to images. The only cure for seconday spectrum is the use of much more expensive, and difficult to work with, rare earth element glasses. Fluorite crystals have also been used but would not stand up to the rigors of rifle scope recoil. | |||
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I agree about the low-light issue, perceived or real. Two other issues are important: 1) how rugged the scope is, as in will it shift POI if dropped or bumped; 2) How well does it hold up over a number of years. This is also very real for a pair of binoculars. I use a pair almost every day of the year and the good ones last considerably longer than the poor ones, but it is very difficult to predict its longevity at time of purchase. | |||
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For many hunts, I don't make reticle adjustments but I try to be prepared if I need to by arming myself with the knowledge, practice and optics which are more than capable. So, I'm in the camp of high quality, extremely rugged and repeatable. There's more to it than simple light transmission since even the modest size objective lenses on a top-flight scope will allow shooting in any legal light conditions. IMHO. My 2 cents, for free Zeke | |||
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There is a field behind my house, 60 acres, that's half the time in corn. When the corn is harvested, a herd of deer will cross it out in the center every evening just before dark. We've always scoped them just watching, no long guns allowed. I had the pleasure last season of looking through a nice Leupold and was truly impressed with the visual quality, it was better, in all our opinions, that the Nikon my BIL was so high on. We judged our scopes by focusing on the rivets in the water tower about 700 yards up the road. Bushnell did the best on the cheaper scopes. | |||
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My experience from going from a "cheap scope" to an expensive scope was that I could see detail better at 7x on the expensive scope better than I could at 9x or 12x on scopes manufactured to a lower pricepoint. This made a believer out of me. | |||
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Reviews showed that Nightforce had better low light performance than Leupold. We tried both in Africa after sun down. No one could tell the difference! | |||
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One night I compared my 7x35 and my 7x50 both Bausch & Lomb Rochester NY made. I could not detect any difference. Sophisticated equipment might be able to and thus a higher review of the 7x50 but my human eye could not detect it. BTW in my books, go to EBAY and find those mentioned B&L binoculars and they are the best buy around. | |||
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All this optical masterbation is of some importance in spotting scopes and binocs for sizing and spotting trophies bedded down or whatever..Scopes work well enough at dawn or dusk to see a 200 lb. animal and all thats required is sticking the cross hair on the blur and pulling the trigger..As for dusk, I don't shoot late evening, because you tend to lose blood trails in the dark, late evening turns to dark in a hurry and the intended animal may be lost...Id say to keep things practical for hunting, just use Leupold scopes... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Generally speaking, yes, the more towards mid day in good sunlight the smaller the advantage of a good scope. But... The first couple of hours after sunrise and before sunset depending on your elevation relative to the sun can be a real bitch with cheaper scopes and flare from into the sun shots or from glare reflecting off brush hiding your target. Cheaper scopeswith longer eye relief will often enough allow a lot of light into the back of the scope and make it hard to see the target well enough to shoot. Obviously, if you are hunting when and where it is legal to shoot more than 1/2 hour before sunrise and/or 1/2 hour ater sunset, better scopes can be MUCH better. I have killed a coyote at 3 AM with just the reflection of city lights off a cloud deck when the city was a few miles away. The coatings to combat flare, glare and reflections while the sun is still up do not come without cost. If you put pretty much anything on a lens surface, it will impede light transmission. So it takes a lot o precision in selection of and application of coatings to minimize impedance and maximize effectiveness of purpose. The same is true for color correction, which few people realize is a significant part of speed of target acquisition and allowing you to decide to shoot. | |||
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I have found that rifle scopes are one of the many consumer items that verify the old saying: You get what you pay for. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have a lot of rifles with good scopes. I have no problem giving as much or more for the scope as I do for the rifle. If you can’t aim the rifle you can’t hit with it. I also have a very cheap but good scope with very old see through mounts of all things that will shoot three shots touching for me, my son and two grandsons when we do our part pulling the trigger. The confidence the shooter has in the rifle-scope combination is the most important attribute in accuracy in the field or bench. Good Shooting. phurley | |||
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To respond to the original question: I suppose so. However, recently buying a new rifle or rescoping an old one for my lady friend we had a look through a new Kahles and the standard issue scope (Burris I think) on a Tikka T3 package. In broad daylight I was absolutely flabbergasted at the difference. The colors, clarity of picture etc. were truly palpable. Just imagine what it is if the conditions are poor such as rain, sleet or fog. I noticed the same with my first S&B: the jaw of anyone peeking through it it in good daylight just dropped. They kept staring through the scope uh-ohing in disbelief. - Lars/Finland A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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Yes, low-light performance is real at least in my experience. Kahles made a fine scope for the U.S. market, the 3-9X42 AH. I still use the Bushnell 3200 4-12X40AO and own several Leupold VX-3's. All 3 have nice clarity and only the Bush. and Leup. (both bought new) had to be sent back due to a faulty erector. Both were back in my hand in 2 weeks. But, one sunny day I waited for a 6-point buck to cross my path to the very last second of legal time. Walking up the road I said to myself nobody could see well enough to shoot in this stuff then I upped the Kahles to look at the road and it was like somebody turned on some dim lights. None of the others had the same low light improvement. Daytime clarity is about on par with the others. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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You get what you pay for in scopes. Blaser infinity scope 2.8x20 50mm Kansas December 2020 The light the deer was shot in just after last light - the game cam date and time is wrong.  The light the deer came out in  Between the deer coming out and the deer being shot. I was on my bino and rifle scope trying to age the deer and making sure I shot a mature deer. The deer also wandered around a doe ect for 10-15 min. Shot was around 100 yards. blaser r8 300 norma Mag. Want to hunt in low light spend the money on the scope. Mike | |||
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Is it legal to hunt after dark where you live? NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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South Carolina 1 hr after sunset Kansas 30 min after sunset Same time frames for before sunrise in both. Mike | |||
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Stonecreek, mgalvin and Atkinson have pretty much summed it up for me. Those high-end European scopes are primarily made for 'hunting' at night without jacklights, not for game hunting under most laws in the US and Australia. What they do bring, though, is vulnerable bulk - the kind that gets bumped more often and moves farther when it is. Unless you're under 25 and with severe myopia, chances are a Leupold scope made for a .22RF probably has all the light gathering you need. Seeing a deer in color rather than monochrome is certainly a sign of superior poor-light performance but how much does that really matter in our game hunting? It may be that we sometimes 'drink the label', too, that we know the price of the scope and somehow become in awe of it. Don't get me wrong: I have great admiration for some European brands, mainly because they were the last ones to stop using reticle-movement. Since 2006, though, it doesn't really matter. | |||
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Im pretty sure a lot of folks buy the best based on price or whats new on the market, the same folks that bought the koolaid of the battery powered car. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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My experience with scopes in the field is quit extensive in Texas whitetail hunting from a blind to a feeder..Its dark when I get into the feeder..I see a lot of deer in the late dark, and just wait until daylight comes and see if any are shooters, they tend to hang around for an hour or two, but most of the time I see a blob and use binocs to check the head or even my spotting scope taped to a rifle stock...I know where the shoulder is under 99% of the cases even when the deer isn't a crisp clean target.. Same with mule deer and elk when hunting horseback, get off and find a rock or log to rest on and shoot when things clear up..I know a ton of ranchers that do the same thing with a 30-30 and iron sights, self included. In my case, I would rather have a set of good binocs and iron sights than no binocs and a scope..but both binocs 8 x 30s and a 4X scope is my norm, but all this is to each his own as it should be.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I'm an amateur astronomer as well as a hunter. The quality of your optics is dependent on (type of glass, figure, polish and quality of and application of coatings). They all make a significant difference. Light gathering is primarily a function of aperture, a 50mm objective scope will be brighter than a 40mm objective scope, all other things being equal. Leupold is the F-150 of scopes. Works hard, does the job, within the budget. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Other options that conflict must be taken into consideration such as I have no use for bulk on a rifle, so I like 3X leupolds and 2x7x"28" of the older Leupolds, Ive never had problems with any scope with all this other stuff that is mostly in the mind of the beholder.. A scope to me is only a sighting device, stick the cross hair on the heart lung area thats 10 to 20 inches round depending on the animal size, and "SQUEEZE" the trigger, the rest is pure BS and a fictional imagenation!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Agreed. Buy the best you can afford. Look through several manufacturers and pick the one that looks best to your eyes. Kahles, Swarovski, Leica, Schmidt and Bender, Blaser are all top of the line. Leupold is fine and works 90% of the opportunities I have had. For longer shots in fading light, the Swaro's work best for me. I have not tried Nightforce, Trijicon or Vortex - but would like to. | |||
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We may be forgetting that the optical needs of a 25 yr old with 20-15 vision is a lot different than the retired office worker with tri focals. The old fart needs all the help he can get and his world of optics is the world of Swarovski, Kahles, S&B, Zeiss and mayhaps the high end Leupolds. And no matter the optics...Carefully consider the downside of making a shot at dusk....As Atkinson points out. | |||
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I have owned Zeiss, Kahles, S&B and do not have good vision and can see no difference between them and Leupolds VX3 series. The only scope I have seen a difference in is a March. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Have not tried the vx3 Leupolds, mostly because I have a draw full of variX2s along with some 3 and 4 powers, and a couple of Leupold 2.5 Alaskans..Have not bought a new scope in years short of at a gun show Leupold fixed, I will buy thoes for a hundred dollar bill every time, needed or not and if they are trashed I send them home and get them fixed or they will replace them..Try that with any other scope!! foriegn scope makers wont even talk to you and dealers say contact the company has been my experience. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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