quote:

It might be interesting if anyone had followed through as I asked and posted their minimum requirement for "momentum" for their choice of cartridge for hunting.....

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
This is the stuff of the ages. It was figured out long ago. Why is it a matter of such debate?

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/ast...ory/newton3laws.html

http://www.google.com/search?q...d=ie7&rlz=1I7SKPB_en

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...93energy_equivalence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...al_projectile_speeds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KE-Munitions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum


KB

You are exactly right, it all goes back to Newton's 3 laws of motion.

I doubt that these internet key board commando experts will even click on the links provided.

So I'll post one of them:

quote:

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html

Newton's Three Laws
of Motion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us begin our explanation of how Newton changed our understanding of the Universe by enumerating his Three Laws of Motion.

Newton's First Law of Motion:
I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

This we recognize as essentially Galileo's concept of inertia, and this is often termed simply the "Law of Inertia".

Newton's Second Law of Motion:
II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

This is the most powerful of Newton's three Laws, because it allows quantitative calculations of dynamics: how do velocities change when forces are applied. Notice the fundamental difference between Newton's 2nd Law and the dynamics of Aristotle: according to Newton, a force causes only a change in velocity (an acceleration); it does not maintain the velocity as Aristotle held.

This is sometimes summarized by saying that under Newton, F = ma, but under Aristotle F = mv, where v is the velocity. Thus, according to Aristotle there is only a velocity if there is a force, but according to Newton an object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration (that is, a change in the velocity). As we have noted earlier in conjunction with the discussion of Galileo, Aristotle's view seems to be more in accord with common sense, but that is because of a failure to appreciate the role played by frictional forces. Once account is taken of all forces acting in a given situation it is the dynamics of Galileo and Newton, not of Aristotle, that are found to be in accord with the observations.

Newton's Third Law of Motion:
III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

This law is exemplified by what happens if we step off a boat onto the bank of a lake: as we move in the direction of the shore, the boat tends to move in the opposite direction (leaving us facedown in the water, if we aren't careful!).

Notice that Newton's 3 laws of motion deal with momentum, momentum transfer, and acceleration. NO ENERGY RELATIONSHIPS.

Prove this wrong Vapodog and Hotcore.

quote:

It might be interesting if anyone had followed through as I asked and posted their minimum requirement for "momentum" for their choice of cartridge for hunting.....

quote:

Originally posted by 900 SS:

quote:

It might be interesting if anyone had followed through as I asked and posted their minimum requirement for "momentum" for their choice of cartridge for hunting.....

The two loads I used last year for moose was 168 gn TSX 30 caliber and 225 Accubonds in 35 caliber. With momentum estimated at 55 and around 80 at impact. I didnt notice any difference.

Momentum and energy is only interesting during off season.

quote:

I doubt that these internet key board commando experts will even click on the links provided.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Ah....now I see.....and this explains why ammo manufacturers publish muzzle energy and not momentum or someone's knockout factor....

I'm slow but I'm learning.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Ah....now I see.....and this explains why ammo manufacturers publish muzzle energy and not momentum or someone's knockout factor....

I'm slow but I'm learning.

Yeah Vapo! Don't you know by now that Kinetic Energy means nothing except a marketing ploy by the ammo manufacturers?!?!

Just ask the last elk you shot with your Whelen!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Ah....now I see.....and this explains why ammo manufacturers publish muzzle energy and not momentum or someone's knockout factor....

I'm slow but I'm learning.

Yeah Vapo! Don't you know by now that Kinetic Energy means nothing except a marketing ploy by the ammo manufacturers?!?!

Just ask the last elk you shot with your Whelen!

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
European ammo makrs do n't list FPE they list "joules" a thermal measurement

quote:

European ammo makrs do n't list FPE they list "joules" a thermal measurement

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

European ammo makrs do n't list FPE they list "joules" a thermal measurement

Since when do the Europeans count for squat.....what are they making.....flame throwers?

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
European ammo makrs do n't list FPE they list "joules" a thermal measurement

Lapua lists energy, not Joules

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

European ammo makrs do n't list FPE they list "joules" a thermal measurement

Since when do the Europeans count for squat.....what are they making.....flame throwers?

I thought joules was a unit of energy.
I did an internet commando raid of Wikipedia, and they gave up the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule



But I know energy does generate heat. (I recall kilocalories per joule, for instance.)
This article was interesting:

http://www.pa.uky.edu/~sciwork...at/preview/then4.htm

I assume a certain amount of heat is generated by a bullet during the terminal ballistics event. Apparently not much energy goes into generating heat.
I should perhaps take this up with my local gas company, as they charged me out the wazoo for heating this winter!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Notice that Newton's 3 laws of motion deal with momentum, momentum transfer, and acceleration. NO ENERGY RELATIONSHIPS.

Prove this wrong Vapodog and Hotcore.

I'm not sure "Why?" you would think either of us would desire to go up against Newton's Laws.

However, the 3rd Law simply deals with "equal Energy being expended in opposite directions", nothing complicated about it. I'm also not sure "Why?" you are attempting to complicate it with "momentum, momentum transfer, and acceleration', when that is unnecessary to understanding the 3rd Law.

But the good news is - I DO NOT care and have no desire to argue.

quote:

Dumb people come up with dumb things.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Lapua Special Purpose Ammunition

You'll see the Metric table lists Joules and the Imperial is listed in Foot Pounds of Energy.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
[QUOTE]Lapua lists energy, not Joules

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
Speaking of Newton...

I don't know if anyone is aware of this, but Isaac Newton himself had his own simple formula for estimating penetration depth of high speed projectiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ion_Aproximation.png

You simply multiply the bullet length times what is called the specific density. This is nothing more than the density of the projectile divided by the density of the target. Notice that such cherished ideas as velocity and sectional density don't even figure into it.

Take the example of a 1-inch long lead bullet.
Lead has a density of something like 707 pounds per cubic foot. I'll call it 700 for simplicity's sake. Soft tissue has a density of something like 62.4 pounds per square foot, which I'll call 60.

So the penetration according to Newton's formula is:
700 / 60 x 1 = 11.7 inches.

Hmm...I dunno...

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

European ammo makrs do n't list FPE they list "joules" a thermal measurement

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
...how fast do I have to throw this BOSS to get enough momentum and/or energy to kill an Elk? ...

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
...how fast do I have to throw this BOSS to get enough momentum and/or energy to kill an Elk? ...

You have obviously missed a whole bunch of threads on the Small Caliber Board. They will tell you, "It is all about Placement. For those that know how to shoot any low Velocity 22cal will work and work well."

They really believe Energy at the Point-of-Impact has no bearing at all on Killing.

However, in response to your question, I'd prefer enough remaining Velocity at the Point-of-Impact with the BOSS to provide complete penetration - shoulder-to-shoulder. But I can see where a double Lung shot with a BOSS would probably work well too.

And of course it would be dependant on whether or not the BOSS arrived at the POI Nose Forward, Sideways, or Thread Forward, how far to the Game, wind conditions, barometric pressure, altitude, moon phase, if anyone is watching and Velocity.

Very doable since it is all about Placement.

quote:

You have obviously missed a whole bunch of threads on the Small Caliber Board.

quote:

I like at least 1000fpe at the Point of Impact on Deer and prefer more.

quote:

Ignored post by Chuck Nelson posted 11 March 2011 02:47

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Ignored post by Chuck Nelson posted 11 March 2011 02:47

because you don't contribute anything!

quote:

for the record, a joule is not a thermal measurement. it is a unit of energy,

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

So how many BTUs does it take to "cleanly" Kill a Deer?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I always pronounced it "Jewel" and if anyone in Electrical/Electronic Engineering had said DJOOL the next thing said would have been - "Say what??? Huh??? Gota frog in your throat???"

So how many BTUs does it take to "cleanly" Kill a Deer?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I like at least 1000fpe at the Point of Impact on Deer and prefer more.

This is a number that has been used by knowlegeble deer hunters for a very long time.

We all know that it can be done with less as my father killed three deer with three shots in about three seconds along the temperence river near Tofte, Minnesota back in 1932 and one of them was a fine eight point that still hangs in the shop of the family farm near Rochester MN. That 25-20 kicked out about 650 FT-LB at the muzzle but was outlawed the following year by the state legislature.

Be that as it is, the 1,000 ft-lb mark is easy to reach and combined with prudent bullet choice still is my standard as well.

In all my years of deer hunting I doubt that I've seen more than a very few folks using less than 1000 fpe and one of them was using a M-1 carbine which comes close.....overall the vast majority use quite a bit more.

quote:

Momentum is easily measured. Kinetic energy is always calculated,

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

Momentum is easily measured. Kinetic energy is always calculated,

Momentum is also calculated. Measure the mass, measure the velocity and calculate the momentum. Same as for kinetic energy. The two are inseparably linked. Kinetic energy is the energy of mass in motion - by definition.

This makes the energy of a bullet a very valid measure of it's 'power'. Bullet momentum is a useful way of understanding how that energy is likely to be transmitted into the target.

But surely when we think of bullet performance we look only at impact velocity and bullet weight? Like, is my 208gr hollow nose cast bullet at 1900 fps going to kill a red deer? Hell, yeah! I've got no idea what the energy or the momentum is. That bullet has enough expansion and enough weight behind it at that velocity to do the job. Hell, it even kills a turkey on the spot - without blowing it up.