Either will kill ANYTHING in the US or Canada with the proper bullet. Which one do you want to buy? Some of these hot loads people are quoting would make a strain gage run and hide!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Moorepower:
Either will kill ANYTHING in the US or Canada with the proper bullet. Which one do you want to buy? Some of these hot loads people are quoting would make a strain gage run and hide!!!

another 2 cents worth.
my 308 has a 1-10 twist 28 inch cut barrel
my 30-06 has a 1-10 twist 27.25 inch buttoned barrel.
speer 125tnt's clock 3250 out of the 308,
same bullet in the 30-06 does 3350.
150 nbt in 308 did 3084
155sierra mk did 3070.
165sierra hpbt did 2880,and 165 sst ,and 168 nosler j-4 didlow 2900's in the 308.
165 rem cor-loc did 2920, 165 sierra hpbt did 2915,168 sierra mk did 2965 in 30-06.
175 sierra btmk did 2550,180 noslerbt did 2570,180 speer deep-shock did 2710,178 a-max hornady did 2774,190 sierra btmk did 2786 (load 2 hot)pressure signs...all shot in 308.
175 sierra mk did 2910 178 a-max did 2820 , 180 speer deep shock did 2870 ,180nosler partition did 2845 forgot 150 gr.nosler partition gold did 2960 all in the 30-06.
granted some 308 165 loads were hot but they were shot in hot weather,but hot is hot and we as reloaders should know when to say when. all in all i'd say their darn close cronographed and measureing head expansion.
regards

Bob F

Yes I used the one example as I thought it sufficient to demonstrate the point. Thanks for your example also giving Ken's results with the 200 ST in the .308. Granted that's only 399 fps difference between that and what I get with the 200 gr Speer in the '06 but I'd say it's close enough to 400 fps, eh? Your load with RL22 is also a pretty good one and I've worked up to it also. However in my M98 and M70 H4831SC gives a smaller ES. Not by much but though. I cracked 2450+ fps with 200 gr bullets (Sierra MKs) in the M700 with 24" barrel but my notes say bolt lift was getting sticky and primers were really flattened. Not had such problems with the 200 gr bullets over H4831SC in the '06. Regarding my use of 22" barrel for the .308 and 24" barrel for the '06; You are hard pressed to find a factory sporting rifle in .308 with a barrel over 22" (is there one?). However, there are several sporting rifles available with 24" barrels in 30-06 (note that I very recently purchased a new M70 Classic Sporter of the rack at a local gunshop). Thanks for the input.

Larry Gibson

Not to but a .300 Savage 99 is also a handy thing to stalk the deers with. Longer barrel with shorter overall length than a bolt gun.

"How about getting off the couch and comparing a 22" barreled 308 to a 22" barreled 30.06 loaded to SAAMI specs (or even the same pressure)?

Speaking of "talking the talk""

Given the same barrel lengths and loaded to the same pressure the 30-06 will always out perform the .308. That's a fact. As I stated in my 1st post most of my tests are with 24" barrels in both. Also I wasn't "comparing" I was reporting the actual differences.

Might interest you to know that I own several .308 rifles and, as I've said, have hunted and killed big game with that cartridge. As I told TR "If the .308 is your favorite then by all means that is the one to get. For your choice of game (roe and the occasional moose) it will do nicely. Just stay within the limits of the cartridge and your shooting ability and you will do fine with the .308." and so it seems some are continuing to argue a moot point.

Larry Gibson

True. It was a shoulder thing so it would work better thru a auttermattic weapon.
I vote '06. If the polls are still open.

I have both also.
If had a choice beetween the 2 in an 85 sako, already owning a 6.5 swede. I think I would choose the 06.
Even more so as I am a handloader.
The comarison would be interesting with both in the same sako.
While it is true on avarage the .308 is a little more acurate, a soko 06 should be plenty acurate for any use I would have for it.
The .308 would probably have less kick.
Would not matter to me at all.
The short action rifle would be a little lighter. Not enough to matter to me.
The 06 clarly shoots 180 and up bullets a little faster. I would say probably 100 to a 150 fps faster.
That might mean somthing , depending on how far your shooting.
For smaller game the 308 is as good as the 06.
For that matter so is the swede.
For moose I would prefer the 06.
You might check the hornady light magnum loads for a velocity comarison...tj3006

quote:

... Also, Ken Waters in his Pet Loads book gives several loads for the .308 Win with a 200 gr bullet that ran from 2478 to 2561 fps from his 24" barrel...

I do remember skimming through some article that demonstrated very similar results(above 2500mv),but my vague recollection of the rifle used was a 22".308win-M88winchester.
Now lets apply the 06' 400fps vel. advantage, and presto!... we have a 200gn@2950+

Well here are the maximum loads from Hodgon and one of them will make 2900 fps with a 200 grain bullet.

Maximum Loads
200 GR. NOS AB 200 Retumbo.........78.0C 2872 52,100 CUP
200 GR. NOS AB 200 H1000...........77.0C 2826 52,600 CUP
200 GR. NOS AB 200 H4831...........71.5C 2785 52,800 CUP
200 GR. NOS AB 200 H4350...........64.4 2723 51,600 CUP
200 GR. NOS PART 200 US 869........85.0 2712 51,800 PSI
200 GR. NOS PART 200 Retumbo.......84.0C 2962 52,300 CUP
200 GR. NOS PART 200 H1000.........79.0C 2883 52,800 CUP
200 GR. NOS PART 200 H4831.........72.0C 2825 53,100 CUP
200 GR. NOS PART 200 Hybrid 100V...66.0 2820 59,400 PSI
200 GR. NOS PART 200 H4350.........66.0 2753 51,700 CUP
200 GR. NOS PART 200 IMR 7828......76.0C 2851 58,400 PSI
200 GR. NOS PART 200 IMR 4831......72.5C 2859 60,900 PSI
200 GR. NOS PART 200 IMR 4350......69.5 2860 62,600 PSI
200 GR. NOS PART 200 Supreme 780...73.5 2870 62,700 PSI

Oops, my mistake!

This data is for the 300 Win Magnum. Obviously the 30.06 would be able to exceed these velocities since it's magic.

I just don't buy the comparison at all. It really is a deal of "mine is better". Trying to see the difference in the field is negligble at best.

Heck a used 30-06 or 308 is only $400+/-. Just buy one of each!! Lots of both are seen on the used gun racks every single day.

Both are accurate, both have great choices of factory ammo available. Both have ammo available just about any where. Both are within 100+/- fps until you get to slugs that NEITHER do all that well with; 200g+.

Me, I have both.

For me the caliber far is less important than the specific's gun's package & performance. I've got a superbely accurate 308 M700 with Shilen #4 SS barrel; tight groups with most bullets and loads. My 30-06 is a '56 M70 Featherweight in a High Tech Specialities stock; not quite as accurate as the 308 but darn near.

Both get shot a lot. However I typically chose my M70 circa '54 custom in 7x57 for hunting anything sub-elk size first. For larger than this I chose a caliber larger than either 308 or 30-06.

Pete A.

I think what matters more, at least to me, than the velocity vs bullet weight vs barrel length argument is just how the particular rifle feels in your hands. To me, that will be much more telling in the field and on the animal than any of the other arguments given so far. They are still just too close. I have both, in multiple rifles, and simply shoot the one that fits best at the time.

I shoot the Micro medallion in very cold winter because the stock is shorter on top of the heavy clothes. I shoot my Highwall when the weather is warmer. No big deal.

Actually I prefer a good 6.5 to either of them.

flip a coin, really - you'll be happy either way.

Weatherby Vanguard, 308 Winchester = 24 inch barrel.

Seems like an apples and oranges situation here.
Of course a 30-06 can be loaded a lot fatser with any bullet than the .308 with judicious loading practices. That's a given based on the fact that it's hard to beat factory .308 loads by very much due to the fact they're already loaded to reasonably top levels while the 30-06 is downloaded due to all the old guns that were chambered for the round.
In theory, the 30-06 in factory ammo is supposed to be faster than the .308 by an average of 100 FPS. I don't think so.
I did a test a while back running Winchester factory .308 and 30-06 Silvertips (What I happened to have on hand.) and the 06 beat the .308 by a whole 10 FPS from a 22" barrel. So much for the advertised 2700 FPS. It did a bit better from a custom Mauser with 24" barrl and finally came close in the 26" barrel of a Ruger #1B. Naturally, I can beat those numbers in the 06 with proper handloads.
Now this makes me wonder???? The 30-06 220 gr. load is advertised as doing 2400 FPS in factory loads. The .308 is not factory loaded with a 220 gr. bullet and I have not seen any 200 gr. factory loads in years.
Now part of this is based on what I learned with the 180 gr. factory loads, but if the 220 gr. load is running 100 FPS slower than advertised, as the 180 gr. loads did that would put it at 2300 FPS + or -, right? Using W-760, it's no great problem to safely load a 220 gr. round nosed bullet to 2300 FPS from a 22" barrel. I know, it's part actual shooting and part conjecture on my part. I would remove the conjecture part if I could locate a box of 220 gr. factory 30-06. When I ask at my local gun store, I get the snide cracks like, What are you gonna shoot? Elephants?"
It's also interesting to note that John Barsness made the comment in an article on the 30-06 that he was hard pressed to find a factory 180 gr. load that exceeded 2600 FPS from a 22" barrel by very much.

Now trhe next topic for discussion will be, "How many angels can dance on the point of a pin?"
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Regarding my use of 22" barrel for the .308 and 24" barrel for the '06; You are hard pressed to find a factory sporting rifle in .308 with a barrel over 22" (is there one?).
Larry Gibson

Weatherby Vanguard, Kimber Longmaster, Remington 700 SPS, TC Icon, CZ 550 American (23.6") etc. etc. etc. all come with 24" barrels.

Savage, Steyr, Remington, Sako, etc. etc. etc. all make 308's with 26" or longer barrels.

Larry, the best thing to do when you are in a hole is to stop digging!

There are lots of guys here who've been there and done that with the 308 and 30-06. There just isn't a 400fps difference between them and most of us know it because we've done a good bit of loading for both................................DJ

In the end to choose between the 308 and 30-06 you probably should be choosing the rifle that fits you best in either caliber. They are so close that the rifle you like should make the difference instead of the chambering............................DJ

quote:

There just isn't a 400fps difference between them

Agreed.....maybe half that or there abouts but not 400!

Forget the charts and graphs, they mean little in the field. Shoot some game with both and you'll never be able to tell the difference. Either one is a great choice so I'd be incline to find a rifle that fits me well, works well and attractive. You can't go wrong with either of these fine calibers. If you need more gun get a 338 Win Mag or lighter gun get a 243. For the big Dangerous African stuff start with the 416's and you'll have all you need.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Ballistically the two are about too close to call. However I prefer the 308 for a couple reasons.
One, the 308 is on average, slightly more accurate than the 30-06 - note this is thoroughly proven fact argueing it is pointless.
Two, I prefer a short action.
Three, the 308 is available in several light, handy rifles that are great for hunting. I love my Steyr Scouts. It's also available in some really nice Sniper type rifles that you won't find the 30-06 in.
Four, 308 ammo is usually more available surplus, some 30-06 surplus is available but not as often and in as much variety as 308.

If you love older Springfields, P-17's and other Pre-War rifles the 30-06 would be the way to go but for modern hunting rifles I think the 308 performs slightly better overall.....................DJ

DJ, wouldnt the extra accuracy from the 308 come from the shorter action? surely if you ran them through the same action you would get similar results? I understand the 'shorter & fatter' cases get more consistant velocities than a long skinny case.

TR, if you want more power in a short action, why not go with a 300WSM?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Ballistically the two are about too close to call. However I prefer the 308 for a couple reasons.
One, the 308 is on average, slightly more accurate than the 30-06 - note this is thoroughly proven fact argueing it is pointless.
Two, I prefer a short action.
Three, the 308 is available in several light, handy rifles that are great for hunting. I love my Steyr Scouts. It's also available in some really nice Sniper type rifles that you won't find the 30-06 in.
Four, 308 ammo is usually more available surplus, some 30-06 surplus is available but not as often and in as much variety as 308.

If you love older Springfields, P-17's and other Pre-War rifles the 30-06 would be the way to go but for modern hunting rifles I think the 308 performs slightly better overall.....................DJ

DJ, wouldnt the extra accuracy from the 308 come from the shorter action? surely if you ran them through the same action you would get similar results? I understand the 'shorter & fatter' cases get more consistant velocities than a long skinny case.

TR, if you want more power in a short action, why not go with a 300WSM?

Paul, I'm not sure if when the military did all of their testing between the two if they did them in the same or different size actions. In competition rifles it would have started out as the M-1 vs the M-14 with the M-14 dominating. I don't know of any specific tests just using action length as the variable.
It seem logical that it would be one factor in the 308's better accuracy but I don't know the specifics to prove it.
One of the reasons I prefer short actions is that I'm a bit of a stock crawler and If I work a long action bolt while aiming it often hits me in the nose, whereas I can work a short action without getting doinked. I know it sounds silly and may not happen to anyone else but it does make a difference to me..........................DJ

In the field there is simply no difference in the .308 and 30-06 with 150, 165 and 180 gr. bullets...If you want to use 200 and 220 gr. bullets handloaded then the 06 is superior but not by a heck of a lot..

I like the .308 in my savage 99 saddle gun, but opt for the 30-06 in a bolt gun..that short action is nothing except in ones mind. A std. action is just a tad longer.

Buy a 30-06 rifle, then buy a new .358 barrel. You'll have yourslf a 35 whelen, which is, in my opinion, superior to either the 308 or 30-06. Of course, you could always go with a 338-06 or a 336-08 (338 federal). All have superior ballistic performances with heavier for cal bullets, and all have enough juice for anything in N. America.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

I like the .308 in my savage 99 saddle gun, but opt for the 30-06 in a bolt gun..that short action is nothing except in ones mind. A std. action is just a tad longer.

Go to a well stocked gunshop and compare a Kimber 84M in 308 and an 8400 LA in 30-06, If you can't tell the difference between the way the two handle you are out of your mind.
For that matter compare a Steyr Scout 308 to a Safe Bolt 30-06, again the difference is so obvious anyone can tell.
Granted the differences aren't so great with all lines of short and long actions but in some there are major differences. Go and see for yourself.............................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

occasionally moose.

Then I'd prefer a heavier 200 grain bullet and the 30-06 wins this debate in my opinion.

nailed roger

Actually, moose are not hard to kill. Once hit in a vital area, they will stand there until if=t occurs to them that they are dead. Then they fall down. This is usually what happens to a moose when shot with anything near lethal, from the old .30 Remington up to a .375 H&H.... Elk, on the other hand, if not immediately killed, can run over the next two mountains before hitting the dirt.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
Not to but a .300 Savage 99 is also a handy thing to stalk the deers with. Longer barrel with shorter overall length than a bolt gun.

Right! But a Savage 99 can also be had in .308, .358, or .284 as well as .300 Savage.........

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
Right! But a Savage 99 can also be had in .308, .358, or .284 as well as .300 Savage.........

Right, but I already have one in .300 Savage.