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I always laugh about the discussion that goes "XYZ cartridge will not do any good because ABC Cartridge already exists..." As a practical matter, the 338 Win Mag filled a useful gap between the 375HH and the 30-06 in 1958 (the 8x68s was pretty much unavailable in the US) and the .223 filled a useful need in 1964. Other than that, I can't think of any cartridge performance requirements that weren't already filled by the: 243 Winchester 6.5x55 264 WM 270 Win 7x57 308 30-06 8x57 35 whelen 9,3x62 375hhmag 416 rigby 458 win mag 505 gibbs all which existed prior to 1958. Sure, some useful cartridges with unique attributes have been produced lately but we all could have easily fulfilled performance requirements with what already existed. Rifle cartridges for at least the last 50 years have had nothing to do with "need", its all about want. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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well, in the spirit of this discussion -- the 505 is a me-too round, so it should be the jeffery/schuler . and the 416 is the me-too, basis the 404 jeffery... frankly, for north america, the 7x57 covers it all #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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or the 338-06 | |||
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You can thank CNC controlled machinery for the existence of the plethora of cartridges available today. By calling up the tooling in the machine magazine, any marketer's or wildcatter's wet dream can be manufactured with a minimum of set up costs. We are blessed with an embarrassment of riches as far as cartridge availability is concerned but there might be a lot of orphaned stuff in the next 20 years. The classics will survive. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Blacktailer, How did CNC effect this? I'm a 28 year journyman toolmaker and ypur response has me in question. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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For me its the 308 win. Anything else is just want and not need. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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I would say that the following covered all bases long ago. 222 Rem 6.5X55 Swed 300 H&H Mag 9.3X62 - (or the 9.3X64 - to cover both the 338 WM & 37h H&H) 416 Rigby 500 Jeffery I know the great 375 H&H is not in the list but why do you need one if you had the 9.3 & the 416? Between the 6.5 Swed & 300 H&H, they virtually cover all the other cartridges in that bullet weight & velocity range. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Just think, if there were only 10 to 15 cartridges for the whole world to choose from, we would lose the ability to argue over finding ammo in remote locals around the world. Would also probably have issues hunting in places like Zambia and France as everything would probably be classified as military. ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | |||
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I agree that most of the recent developments in cartridge design are largely superfluous if not downright useless. Especially the field of "short magnums"; I consider those to be in the latter category. Please, no hate mail about how the reduction of 3/8ths of an inch bolt travel saved your life. CNC tools since 1964? Of course, they have revolutionized gun manufacture. If you don't understand that, go back to 1964 when Winchester went from single station machines to stampings and tape controlled machines. No one wanted those cheap guns, but CNC has made guns of higher quality sell for less than they did back then. (adjust for inflation) Labor rates killed the old ways. Need to study the market and the costs of manufacturing a bit more. But the gun manufacturers have introduced new cartridges so they can sell more rifles. That is how our consumer/capitalism economic system works. 308? That is a very recent development and does nothing that a round that was developed in 1903 did not do much better. | |||
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It did ? The US would have been better off with many other cartridges not the least of the .222 Rem Mag.
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There was one very useful purpose for 308 win (tehcnically T65) if IIRC correctly, and that was the shortening of the case worked much better for full auto weapons which was what the military was trying to achieve. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The gun manufacturers market new cartridges as an attempt to boost sales They failed However in the past couple years gun sales are dominated by the $400 rifle that just about all the major manufacturers have put out No accident these are only offered in tried and true strong selling cartridges CNC in no way makes prototype work on one off tooling cheaper. The CAD systems of today are light years ahead of systems of only 10 years ago but for one off tooling we only write programs and run 100K machines if 100% essential. Grinding a single chamber reamer for a prototype.....still done by hand ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Gun companies need to make thousands of rifles to make any money; not talking about one of anything. I have, too, noticed, that they all have lowered their products to the lowest common denominator with $300 rifles in plastic stocks. No one carries wood stocks any more; they don't sell in the volumes needed to make a profit, and after all, that is the only reason any business makes anything. 308? Not needed in the sporting world; we aren't talking about military weapons. Useful? Of course. | |||
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12ga. - 22lr - 30-30WCF - 375 H&H. Needs filled. What a boring, treacherous, hate-filled existence that might have been. Thank God for Weatherby and Ackley, and Niedner and Roberts and Waters and Simpson and on down the list. Not only did they give us options, but also pushed the development of better primers, propellants, projectiles, and brass as well as a market for reloading equipment, custom barrel makers and stocks and triggers...it has been an excessive necessity to get us to the advanced superior options we have in every other aspect of our obsession. It has allowed us this fantastic obsession. | |||
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 Just my personal opinion, Mike, but I think the .223 and the .308 were as necessary as tits on a boar hog.There popularity today stems from the fact that they both were military.If the Gov. had chosen a 250-3000 in "54" the game would be different today.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Well from a military perspective, the 308 (as I understand it) allowed for more reliably and lighterweight machine guns because of a lighter and smaller mass bolt slamming back and forth. With respect to the 250-3000, while interesting it still has a much larger case diameter and an infantryman can carry more rounds and a lighter less bulky rifle when chambered in 223 Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Interesting topic. Here's my take on rifle calibers (and I have to omit a lot of my favorites, both new and old. 44/40 (187?) 22 LR (1887) 8x57 (1888) 22 WCF (1890 or so) 450 Nitro Express (1898) 9.2x62 (1905) 250 Savage (1912 or 1914) 300 H&H (1925) 22/250 nee 22 Gebby (1930 or so) That covers all my bases. NRA Life Member DRSS-Claflin Chapter Mannlicher Collectors Assn KCCA IAA | |||
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My needs are covered with the following hunting cartridges: .22 LR .270 or somewhat similar cartridge .338 WM .416 if I need more power than the .338WM But I would not mind having a .30-06 around the house, and maybe a .375 H&H for the heck of it. I included the .22LR as a hunting cartridge since I can legally use it for hunting grouse and other small birds, and pick just one or two from a flock leaving the rest to procreate  | |||
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Well, I mean, if you're going to go down that road, the 338, really offers nothing over the 35 Whelen, which was brought out in 1922. Between the 22, the 3006, and the 35 you can handle the best of NA with ease. Throw in the 404 jeffery, and you can take the world, with nothing newer than 1922. Though a heavy for caliber 06, will certainly do anything the 35 will do, and you could have 3 for the world. That said, I like options, and I do love my 338. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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I think that you're all forgetting about some of the new cartridges that outperform the old standards. Cartridges like the 6.5x284 and some of the new 6mm cartridges that use the new sleeker bullets to beat everything at the 1,000 line. You don't see any of the old cartridges at World class competitions because they just don't compare. The 338 Lapua has proven itself as unbeatable as a long range sniper round. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I don't know about unbeatable, but its certainly a performer. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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Well I see a few folks got into the true spirit of National Marijuana Day. Let me see if I have anything that lets me fit into the Pre-1964 crowd? .22 LR .257 Robert's 6.5x55 Swedish .300 Weatherby .35 Whelen .351 Winchester SL .38-55 Win. .375 H&H .44 Rem. Mag. 12 gauge 10 gauge It don't look like I have any of the new wundercartridges. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I realize that it is not popular in 1000 yard matches but is there anything a 6.5x284 can do with a 14o grain bullet that a 284 win can't do with a 150 grain bullet. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I beg to differ on the 416 Rigby. The Rigby can be handloaded to a level beyond the dreams of the 404 and was already done so by many pre-64. So the Rigby keeps its place in the lineup of 'needed' cartridges. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The above list (with the 223 and 338WM added as originally given) has some flat-shooting rounds like the 264WM and 270, so it should have included the 300 Weatherby/WinMag, And extending the flat-shooting cartridges might include the 338 Lapua and the 460 Weatherby/450 Rigby/450 Dakota. The Lapua and 460 are filled with a handloaded Rigby (aka 416Weatherby). Then again, the list could be paired down and collapsed by grouping things like the 35 Whelen and 9.3 together. They are practical hunting versions of the same thing for the US and Europe. Pre-64 levels for practical hunting and shooting: 223Rem//222Rem - faster: 220 Swift 243Win//257 Roberts - faster: 257 Weatherby 6.5 x55 - faster: 264 Win Mag 270 Win//7x57 - faster: 7mRemMag 308//303//30-06 - slower: 30-30 - faster: 300 Magnums (H&H, Win, Weatherby) 8x57? or to be included with the 30-06? - faster: 338 WinMag 35 Whelen//9.3x62 - faster: 358 Norma Mag 375 H&H - faster: 378Weatherby 404 Jeff//416 Rigby factory - faster: 416 Rigby handload 458 Win - slower: 45-70 - faster: 460 Weatherby 470 NE gap 500 Jeffrey//505 Gibbs//500NE - faster: handloaded 500Jeffrey or 505Gibbs 577 NE gap There are not many performance gaps in the above, just opportunities for different packaging. In normal performance ranges the 338 calibre might be said to have a gap. The 8x57 is halfway between .308 and .338. Today that gap, if it exists, is filled by the 338 338-06//338RCM. One may also point out the gap for some future 'faster' rounds in 470 (e.g. 470 Mbogo) and 577 (e.g., the 577 TRex). [PS: the 'handloaded versions' listed above are only for cartridges with grossly underutilized capacities like the Rigby, Jeffrey, and Gibbs. It ignores potentially unsafe "hot" loads of standard cartridges, like when some people have loaded 30-06 up to 300 magnum ballistics.] Hunters have certainly not been hampered by cartridge since '64. However, one may note that all of the "faster" cartridges have basically led to a continuing development of bullet technology, because only the Nosler Partition was really up to handling the demands of the faster cartridges back around 1960. And many hunters learned that the real advantage of the 'faster' cartridges was the ability to shoot heavy for calibre bullets at medium-fast velocities (2600-2800fps). +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I find them all useful and interesting. If you don't like them don't buy them. If you own more then one rifle any one of these calibers buy 200 rounds of brass when you buy the rifle and you have a life time supply. Unless your a target or varmint shooter. Winter doldrums must be setting in. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t...vm=bv.65058239,d.aWc | |||
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Reckon this thread fits well under the "nothing useful" title actually. The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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Mike, I have to disagree. To get a similar BC to the 142 grain, 6.5mm bullet the 284 Win has to shoot the 175 grain bullet which has a slighter higher BC. But since the 284 Win can't get the same velocity with the 175s that the 6.5x284 gets with the 142s, the BC drops off quicker and you pay the penalty at long distances. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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frank, i don't think u r disagreeing...i think u r answering my question...but i will go research BCs and velocities Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Hell, I like them all. Invent more. But I usually gravitate to the older stuff anyway. | |||
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The cartridge game is a lot like a trip to Taco Bell. All the same crap in a different sized case. The older I get the more I like my .30-06 -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Jeezzz...would Ya'll STOP this mindless "this vs that", "my dog is bigger, better, badder than your dog" persistent, mindless, useless KRAP that is REALLY "NOTHING USEFUL SINCE ....."???? These arguments serve no useful purpose...the old timers have already chosen, many if not most are set in there ways and WON'T CHANGE...the younger ones have totally different agendas and don't give squat doodly about what you or I have to say about ANYTHING and, as already been pointed out, the manufacturers are fighting for their corporate lives and are just about to be destroyed by the present administration, see ONLY the bottom line and react to the dollar only. Without a progression of cartridges we WOULDN'T HAVE "SHIT TO SHOOT" PERIOD Sometimes I can't believe the arguments that come out of very knowledgeable shooters over what amounts to nothing but "these are MY favorite shooters and they are better than YOUR favorite shooters" and nothing else. Almost daily someone somewhere starts the SAME OLD SHIT, on some thread and EVERYONE seems to jump on the same old bait. Be than thankful we still have ANY guns to shot, brass to use, bullets still available and primers that are a hell of a lot better than those in the 40's and 50's. Whether you know it or not, or believe it or not, all this garbage being spread about is giving ammo to the Anti's in the form of various small items that greatly impact our sport in ways many of you can't or won't see, to attack behind the scenes. Lots of very good things to talk about without getting into that incessant, useless argument about which/which isn't of any "value". Yeah...I know...EVERYONE wants their 15 minutes of fame online. RANT OVER...    | |||
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Which is better, a Ford or a Chevy? Which is better, Vanilla Ice Cream or Chocolate? Which is better, Blondes/Brunettes or Red Heads? Which is better, Winchester/Remington/Ruger/Weatherby/Marlin/CZ? Which is better, Cup & Core or Mono Metal, Nosler or Barnes or Woodleigh??? Which is better Light Beer or Regular Beer, Vodka or Gin??? Discussions are what the world and sites like this go round. There are only so many new topics, especially in as varied/experienced and knowledgeable a group as comprises the membership of this site. I too have ranted about why discuss which type rifle is best, or which caliber is best for North America, it all boils down to personal choice, nothing more/nothing less and it is what makes these places entertaining and informative. To me it would be a really dull world if we were only limited to one or two choices on anything. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I tend to agree with Mike however I would mention two exceptions that deserve to be mentioned - the well thought 400 H&H which is a perfect company to my 300 H&H rifle and probably the 500/416 NE which makes the double rifle even more versatile. CZ | |||
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Why discuss the same ol crap? What do you want to talk about? Work? The price of gas? Mathematics in the 21st century? This is what you talk about when winter has gone on for 8 months and the last 5 seasons of hunting and fishing have been discussed. If the ice was still good we'd be catching fish, right now we are just bored. Personally I will always need a 300Wby, 260Rem, 243Win, 6.5-06, and right now I'm feeling like I need another 338RUM. When I sell off the 6.5x284s I will realize that I actually NEED one of those to as they serve me a use-full purpose. You can always opt out of these discussions if they do not suit you. | |||
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I've had a lot of those cartridges that were not needed. I needed them at the time. Many are gone, but they were fun while I had them. I'm trying to get down to my favorite fifteen. It's harder than I thought. You could argue that you only need a few, say a 22LR, a 30/06, and a 375, or maybe just the 375, but then I would need something a bit lighter for..... There was a John Denver song a long time ago that went something to the effect that 'loving only one kind of woman was like drinking only one kind of wine.' Well, some people like wine and some like beer and some like both, and seldom do we like only one kind. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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I think you all are missing the point of the OP. The point is that the arguments are silly and that people continue to have them even though you could pick almost any date...1915, 1925, 1958, or 1964 and say that no new development was needed past that point yet it still continues and will continue. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| One of Us |
+1 And an Amen! | |||
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One of Us |
Mike Stop being logical... 
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