THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM HANDGUN HUNTING FORUM

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Picture of 416Tanzan
posted
I am thinking of buying a handgun that would serve as an around-camp backup gun.

Background: many a year ago I had a 44 RM Redhawk as a backup for bowhunting in Africa. I handloaded 250gn Sierras at 1400fps, and other loads 240-300gn. I liked it and shot a warthog with it once. But I do not normally wear ear plugs when hunting. I hated the high-pitched whine whenever I fired the 44RM without earmuffs (rare though that was). So I sold it 30 years ago and have been without a handgun ever since.

So now I would like some help and advice from those of you with handgun experience.

Two goals:
1. I would like the gun to be quieter than that 44, if possible.
2. The gun does not need to be top of the power ratings. Probably a 10mm or 45 ACP would be my minimum standard.

Questions:

Q1: Is there any advantage between a pistol and a revolver regarding noise?
Q1b: Do certain models with tighter tolerances (like Freedom Arms revolvers, or ??? pistols) make a difference in noise?

Q2: Is there a noticeable difference in noise between a muzzle velocity below 1100 fps and above 1100fps, that is, below or above the speed of sound, approximately?

Q3: For any recommended platform (10mm, 44 Special, 44RM, 45ACP, 45 Colt), what bullet would be recommended for defending against a bear? (Yes, I know that larger calibers are often preferred, but please humor me on the relatively restricted choices listed. If speed-of-sound is a noticeable noise factor, then the 44RM would be limited to heaviest bullets, like 300gn, in order to keep the speed down.)

Q4: Would a bullet like the Hornady "HAP" work in a defensive situation on bears? I am not interested in handgun hunting, per se, but would want any bullet to penetrate reliably.

Thank you for your help.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4197 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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What are you "backing up"?

A handgun may be marginally better than nothing, but it is less than ideal if something actually needs to be shot. Any kind of shotgun is a more effective defensive tool, and works much better than a handgun for offensive actions (presumably the offensive action of taking game for the pot.)
 
Posts: 12652 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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I've lived and hunted in bear country since I moved to Montana 45 years ago. I usually have a handgun in camp -- .44 magnum, .357 magnum, or .45 acp.

Only once have I had a bear in one of my camps, a grizzly that I tried to scare off with two .44 mag shots over his head with no effect, then he ran off when I threw and hit him with a rock.

Two of the black bears that I have shot were both with handguns on spot and stalk hunts, and both were quick one shot kills. The first with a 220 grain hard cast bullet from my 1911 gov't model .45 acp, the other with a 250 grain hard cast bullet from my Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag.

So my thoughts on your questions:
1. I would like the gun to be quieter than that 44, if possible.
I think that the crack or report of my .357 is sharper than that of my .44 mag. My .45 acp is not as loud as either my .357 or .44. A shorter barrel will usually be louder than a longer barrel, a ported barrel will be louder than a non-ported barrel.

2. The gun does not need to be top of the power ratings. Probably a 10mm or 45 ACP would be my minimum standard.
Accurate bullet placement is probably most important, but the bullet must have enough power to destroy the vitals or central nervous system. At one time I heard that Colorado FWP did not consider the .45 acp powerful enough for black bear hunting.


Q1: Is there any advantage between a pistol and a revolver regarding noise?
Q1b: Do certain models with tighter tolerances (like Freedom Arms revolvers, or ??? pistols) make a difference in noise?
I don't think that a shooter could tell the noise difference in the same cartridge shot in either a pistol or revolver.

Q2: Is there a noticeable difference in noise between a muzzle velocity below 1100 fps and above 1100fps, that is, below or above the speed of sound, approximately?
I think that velocities over 1100 fps would be louder that velocities under 1100 fps. I know that my .44 Mag loads at 1400 fps are noticeably louder than my .44 Spl loads at 800 fps.

Q3: For any recommended platform (10mm, 44 Special, 44RM, 45ACP, 45 Colt), what bullet would be recommended for defending against a bear? (Yes, I know that larger calibers are often preferred, but please humor me on the relatively restricted choices listed. If speed-of-sound is a noticeable noise factor, then the 44RM would be limited to heaviest bullets, like 300gn, in order to keep the speed down.)
All of the cartridges you listed will make a similar large entrance hole, so I would look for the one that would penetrate the deepest. For me that would be a hard cast gas checked 250 grain bullet from a .44 Magnum.
Jacketed bullets can be driven faster than lead bullets, and a HP design may not penetrate as deep as solid point.
I don't know if a .44 mag 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps would be noticeably quieter than a 240 grain bullet at 1400 fps.

Q4: Would a bullet like the Hornady "HAP" work in a defensive situation on bears? I am not interested in handgun hunting, per se, but would want any bullet to penetrate reliably.
The Hornady HAP bullet is made for paper and steel and is not designed for penetration. It would be better than nothing, but there are much better bullets for bear defense.


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Posts: 1488 | Location: Bozangeles, MT | Registered: 14 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of 416Tanzan
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quote:
Originally posted by Stonecreek:
What are you "backing up"?

A handgun may be marginally better than nothing, but it is less than ideal if something actually needs to be shot. Any kind of shotgun is a more effective defensive tool, and works much better than a handgun for offensive actions (presumably the offensive action of taking game for the pot.)


I am thinking of a quick access handgun that would be available when not carrying a rifle. For example, when collecting firewood, fixing food, survival/broken-rifle situation, or anytime when not on an active hunt with a rifle in hand. Maybe "backup" was a misleading term.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4197 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Q2: Is there a noticeable difference in noise between a muzzle velocity below 1100 fps and above 1100fps, that is, below or above the speed of sound, approximately? I think that velocities over 1100 fps would be louder that velocities under 1100 fps. I know that my .44 Mag loads at 1400 fps are noticeably louder than my .44 Spl loads at 800 fps.


Along this line I would buy the lightest 6 inch or so 45colt, 44mag I could find. Shorter barrels are for sure louder

Hand load a good 240-300gr bullet to around 1100fps with 8 to 10grs of Herco.

Or you could do the same with a 6 inch 357 158gr bullet and appropriate charge of powder.
 
Posts: 16421 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Why the "quiet" requirement ?
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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The op said the sharp report hurt his ears.
I agree that a 45 or 44 in a 6", heavy bullet at 900 - 1000 fps would do the trick.
Or, do like the rest of us idiots and shoot enough until your hearing is half gone. Then it wont seem as loud!
 
Posts: 3720 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
The op said the sharp report hurt his ears.
I agree that a 45 or 44 in a 6", heavy bullet at 900 - 1000 fps would do the trick.
Or, do like the rest of us idiots and shoot enough until your hearing is half gone. Then it wont seem as loud!


What's that you say HUH
 
Posts: 16421 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of 416Tanzan
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Can anyone address the question of a 45 ACP pistol with a 900fps bullet, (or 10mm pistol with 1000fps bullet)
vs. a revolver with a 900fps-1000fps bullet?


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4197 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
The op said the sharp report hurt his ears.
I agree that a 45 or 44 in a 6", heavy bullet at 900 - 1000 fps would do the trick.
Or, do like the rest of us idiots and shoot enough until your hearing is half gone. Then it wont seem as loud!


Could you speak up a little, please ? old
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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I would guess an auto would technically be quieter then a revolver with it's cylinder gap... but would probably need testing equipment to show it.
A reasonably heavy bullet with a smallish powder charge to get you 900-1000 fps is going to be as good as any. I have a 4 5/8 Ruger in 45 colt. I use 22 grns of IMR 4227 and a 300 grn bullet. right on 1000 fps, oddly very little muzzle flash, less then using Unique. Not something I would shoot all day without muffs, but not terrible for the one or two shots needed shooting at a critter.
 
Posts: 3720 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Yes, an auto would be somewhat quieter, I'm sure.
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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I have done little handgun shooting but know that whenever I shoot at deer or other big critters with any rifle I feel no recoil and the report sounds as though it comes from over the hill.

I imagine the same would occur if you had to use your pistol as self-defence against a bear. Therefore, what about getting one with the power you really need and keep earplugs or muffs nearby for non-urgent purposes?

Earplugs often come with a plastic lanyard between them, and I wonder if they could be hooked on to the holster somehow easily available.

Use of big guns without hearing protection will damage our ears, even if we don't notice it at the time - but compared with being eaten by the bear this is of little importance.
 
Posts: 4179 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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The noise factor is kind of subjective to the user to a degree but a .45 long colt to my ears has a lower frequency boom than a high velocity .44 or .357 magnum. Plus if it's loaded up a bit it's a far better killer than any .45 ACP.


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Posts: 2300 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Can anyone address the question of a 45 ACP pistol with a 900fps bullet, (or 10mm pistol with 1000fps bullet)
vs. a revolver with a 900fps-1000fps bullet?


416Tanzan,

I am certain that you will get a lot of better answers than mine, but I will go ahead and tell you what I have done in the past 2 years or so in Alaska where I live.

I have carried a Freedom Arms long-barreled (7-1/2") .454 Casull loaded with hard cast ammo, and have finished a couple of moose that were just about dying. Anyway, when berry picking, I sometimes carry the .454 above, and sometimes a Marling .45-70 also loaded with factory hard cast ammo. I have never had to shoot a bear in self defense, so I can't tell what would work best. The problem with these two firearms is that they are heavy, and slow should you have to "spray lead."

For those reasons I decided to carry a 10mm Glock pistol loaded with hard cast ammo (around 220 grains). However, this year I plan to buy some of the new Buffalo Bore 190-grain dangerous Game Mono-Metal, and load the pistol with these instead of the 220 grainers.
https://www.buffalobore.com/in...product_detail&p=571

Yes a 10mm pistol can be a little loud, but you have a lot of firepower if you use 15-round extended magazines. There is something nice about the Glock, and that is reliability, plus fairly good accuracy out of the box. Not as easy to disassemble and then reassemble as most 1911 pistols, but have a pretty tough finish that resists corrosion.

About noise and things like that I better let others tell you. All i know is that short barrels can be noisier than longer barrels, and that a .454 Casull will make big noise even with a longer barrel, but a short barrel will be worst Smiler
 
Posts: 454 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 20 November 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Can anyone address the question of a 45 ACP pistol with a 900fps bullet, (or 10mm pistol with 1000fps bullet)
vs. a revolver with a 900fps-1000fps bullet?


I load a 250gr lead swc at 875fps in the 45acp should give some where above 20 inches of penetration. If I were looking to quite it down I go to a 6 inch model.

Same with the 10mm it works at higher pressure and well have more muzzle blast.

Auto loaders are harder to quite down because they need a certain pressure level to operate properly.

The key to quite loads is to lower the pressure curve at the muzzle. The lowest charge of the fastest powder to get the job done is the best.

When I was about 25yoa I had a box of WW 158gr LSWC 357mag. They were loud and a flame thrower. Thought wow they must be powerful.

I also loaded some 160gr LSWC's with a load of Herco.

There was a noticeable difference in noise and muzzle blast. The hand loads were way less.

When I cronyed them the hand loads avg 50fps faster.

I am firm believer that the factory want to make sure you know your shooting a magnum.

I have tailored many handgun loads for the best velocity, least noise and blast.
 
Posts: 16421 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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for camp gun/ follow up
I am a big fan of
1: big holes
2: stainless
3: revolver
4: 45 colt
5: weight

(if big hole isn't mandated, then a 22, along the same lines)

which lead me to the S&W 625-9 45 colt mountain gun, loaded with 250s at 1000fps, using the minimum powder to get there

no reason you couldn't do the same with a 44, loading it to something like 44 spec+p

having spent more than a minute carrying various automatics, including the 45 and 10mm, i consider then autos to be HUNTING pistols, which are kept in tip-top all the time, rather than tools, which may or may not having been gone over that morning - and they do jam ..

btw, I consider the 10mm with 180 @1300 is to be a prime hunting pistol

45 colt revolver, with at least 1 snake shot in the wheel, has and will serve me well .. unless all my guns are lost in another boating accident


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
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Posts: 35127 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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ah, 10mm autoloader vs 45 colt revolver --

let's get the 1000 fps part down -- i've shot 40sw in my 10s, which works fine in sample set of 3, at roughly 1000 fps- .. noise is low freq, sound pressure not even close, but it's still LOUD
(all 4" barrels") - my arbitrary scale is NOT NOT NOT dB

45 colt 250 1000fps - meh, let's all that an 80

40sw in a 10mm - about the same, 80

10mm with real loads -- about 100

44 mag with full house loads - 130

22 subsonic 40

22 LR - 50

22 mag in the AMT - 110


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 35127 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I am thinking of a quick access handgun that would be available when not carrying a rifle. For example, when collecting firewood, fixing food, survival/broken-rifle situation, or anytime when not on an active hunt with a rifle in hand. Maybe "backup" was a misleading term.


How many times are you going to fire a weapon in your above situation? I would use whatever I could shoot well. I have gone to a Ruger LC9S tu2
 
Posts: 2132 | Location: KENAI, ALASKA | Registered: 10 November 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of 416Tanzan
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
ah, 10mm autoloader vs 45 colt revolver --

let's get the 1000 fps part down -- i've shot 40sw in my 10s, which works fine in sample set of 3, at roughly 1000 fps- .. noise is low freq, sound pressure not even close, but it's still LOUD
(all 4" barrels") - my arbitrary scale is NOT NOT NOT dB

45 colt 250 1000fps - meh, let's all that an 80

40sw in a 10mm - about the same, 80

10mm with real loads -- about 100

44 mag with full house loads - 130

22 subsonic 40

22 LR - 50

22 mag in the AMT - 110


Thank you, Jeff,
this is quite helpful.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4197 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of 416Tanzan
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quote:
Originally posted by tsturm:
quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I am thinking of a quick access handgun that would be available when not carrying a rifle. For example, when collecting firewood, fixing food, survival/broken-rifle situation, or anytime when not on an active hunt with a rifle in hand. Maybe "backup" was a misleading term.

How many times are you going to fire a weapon in your above situation? I would use whatever I could shoot well. I have gone to a Ruger LC9S tu2


Fair question, but when one needs it, it needs to work. My old 44 Redhawk worked fine. But it was loud.
So how many times would I want to use it for a finishing shot?


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4197 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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I am a proponent of the “PPP”, or perfect packing pistol. My idea of the PPP is a single or double action revolver with a 4-5” barrel that weighs no more than about 37oz, and and no wider than a Colt SAA army. One of Ruger’s new 4and5/8” flattop Blackhawks in either 44spl or 45 Colt weighs in 40oz, or a little more. Fit an Aluminum grip frame and ejector rod housing, and they go under 35oz. There is a fellow down in Houston that started making CNC custom aluminum grip frames for old and new model blackhawks in a dizzying variety of configurations.

The perfect double action PPP, for me, would be the 4.1” S&W Model 69. Load it up or down to suit your needs. If you intend to shoot the heavy loads, folks are sticking the big rubber grip from the X-frame on it. For a general purpose load, I would load a 250 Keith cast bullet, or a 250 grain XTP over 8.5 grains of POWER PISTOL, for about 1000 FPS. The 69 is smaller and lighter than the mountain gun, and less expensive.


Matt
FISH!!

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"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
 
Posts: 3000 | Location: Northern Colorado | Registered: 22 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Phil (458 Win) needs to chime in on this issue.

About noise, handguns can be peculiar in that regard. Many people have told me they think a 357 Mag is louder than a 44 Mag. I've also heard lots of complaints about the noise out of 22 Mags and the 327 Mag. There's something about those smaller cartridges that is particularly bothersome for some handgun shooters. But basically, they are all loud enough to cause hearing loss pretty quickly without hearing protection. I think a back up defense gun is intended to be fired for its intended purpose (not practice) only a few times in a lifetime.
 
Posts: 760 | Location: Central California Coast | Registered: 05 May 2007Reply With Quote
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Without much analysis, I would pack either my 4 inch or 6 inch M19 .357 with bullets up to 180 grain BB.
Because I have shot these revolvers for many years and can shoot them well without aiming at close range and can hit a bear head sized target with sights out to 50 yards and have time to hide or grab a rifle for targets beyond that.
Plus having snake shot and/or other bullet selection is very handy and always used in snake county like Texas where I live and do most of my hunting.

I have carried a ported 4 inch .44 mag in camp and out, but they are loud and not as natural to shoot as my M19s.
Had a nice Ruger .44 but it slowed me down and I sold it.

Whatever you choose, be sure to shoot it a lot until it becomes second nature.


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Posts: 1865 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
I am a proponent of the “PPP”, or perfect packing pistol. My idea of the PPP is a single or double action revolver with a 4-5” barrel that weighs no more than about 37oz, and and no wider than a Colt SAA army. One of Ruger’s new 4and5/8” flattop Blackhawks in either 44spl or 45 Colt weighs in 40oz, or a little more. Fit an Aluminum grip frame and ejector rod housing, and they go under 35oz. There is a fellow down in Houston that started making CNC custom aluminum grip frames for old and new model blackhawks in a dizzying variety of configurations.

The perfect double action PPP, for me, would be the 4.1” S&W Model 69. Load it up or down to suit your needs. If you intend to shoot the heavy loads, folks are sticking the big rubber grip from the X-frame on it. For a general purpose load, I would load a 250 Keith cast bullet, or a 250 grain XTP over 8.5 grains of POWER PISTOL, for about 1000 FPS. The 69 is smaller and lighter than the mountain gun, and less expensive.


The recommendations for Smith and Wesson and Ruger Blackhawk raise another two questions/comments.

1. When I got the Ruger Redhawk 44M in the 80's I specifically chose the Redhawk over S&W because of the grip. My hands are relatively small and the Ruger grip allowed a more complete grasp. I also bought a Hogue grip for the Redhawk but immediately went back to the wooden grips because of overall grip size. Shooting full power loads was no problem, but I remember the local indoor range asking about what I was shooting because of the noise. Outdoors I practised out to 100 yards, I guess I'm a rifle hunter at heart.

2. On the Blackhawk (single action), I imagine that practice allows one to cock and shoot without thinking. With the Redhawk almost all of my shooting was single-action because of training for accuracy, but I did a little double-action, too. Since it has now been 30 years, I'm trying to remember how easy and smooth the single-action was. Back in the old West the gunslingers apparently got used to single-action, so this may be a moot question after re-acquaintance. For a ready access gun for bears, is the single vs. double-action a significant consideration? Or is it just a matter of practice and automaticity?

The Ruger single-action series have many models in 45 Colt and with barrels in the 4"-5" size. But they also have a Redhawk double-action in 45 Colt//45 Auto (with moon-cllip), 4.2" barrel. Should I think only in terms of the Redhawk, or would the various single-actions be fine?


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4197 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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i carried a blackhawk for roughly 12 years before the SW .. it's muscle memory -- i draw and pull the hammer, due to training ... single action for accuracy and speed...

i have a friend that shoots single faster than i can accurately shoot a semi

i too practice out to 100, with 50 being my preferred .. let me get 6 into a playing card, I am happy


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 35127 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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I shot a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan Toklat .454 Casull today with factory 260's and with 45 Colt 240. Very nice handling .
 
Posts: 5017 | Location: NY, NY | Registered: 28 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Ok, a Ruger compact revolver in 357 mag. WHAT!!!

What have I shot most of in camp or just an extra whist packing a rifle? SNAKES. I absolutely hate snakes. They scare the shit out of me. 38 shot shells work way better than 22 shot shells.

Also the weapon is small and unobtrusive. You'll hardly know it's there, you won't be tempted to remove it. Granted it's a short range weapon but for snakes or a sudden encounter with a bear, well it's right there, right now. Better than the hog leg you took off and left "just over there" because it was too heavy.

What about bears? Ok, if I'm bow hunting or handgun hunting I take my 45 LC or 454. But if I'm rifle hunting its not a primary hunting weapon it's minimal defensive weapon and will be used at rather short or contact range.

Power. 180 gr hard cast at 1000+ fps, yes I've chronograph that load. Recoil is absolutely brutal. It makes my 454 seem tame. You will not want to fire more than one or two shots with this load. Will easily penetrate 4x4 lumber at 5 feet. You can practice with mild 38 loads or even 158 gr 357 loads.

Just something to think about.
 
Posts: 763 | Location: Montana | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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It looks like a person could load a 325gn Barnes Buster in a 45 Colt. Maybe 11 grn Longshot or 17 gn Titegroup for about 1000fps?

That should thump a bear. And could provide a finishing shot on most anything.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4197 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
It looks like a person could load a 325gn Barnes Buster in a 45 Colt. Maybe 11 grn Longshot or 17 gn Titegroup for about 1000fps?

That should thump a bear. And could provide a finishing shot on most anything.


That sounds great! I prefer heavy LBT hard cast bullets, but that buster will certainly do the job. I’ve wondered how the 360 grain True Shot bullet would work in 45 Colt at 1000 FPS. I foolishly traded off a Bowen long cylinder blank that I had intended to use for a 45 Colt in an old model small frame Blackhawk with that 360 True Shot at 1000fps.


Matt
FISH!!

Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984:

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
 
Posts: 3000 | Location: Northern Colorado | Registered: 22 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
[QUOTE]

The recommendations for Smith and Wesson and Ruger Blackhawk raise another two questions/comments.

1. When I got the Ruger Redhawk 44M in the 80's I specifically chose the Redhawk over S&W because of the grip. My hands are relatively small and the Ruger grip allowed a more complete grasp. I also bought a Hogue grip for the Redhawk but immediately went back to the wooden grips because of overall grip size. Shooting full power loads was no problem, but I remember the local indoor range asking about what I was shooting because of the noise. Outdoors I practised out to 100 yards, I guess I'm a rifle hunter at heart.

2. On the Blackhawk (single action), I imagine that practice allows one to cock and shoot without thinking. With the Redhawk almost all of my shooting was single-action because of training for accuracy, but I did a little double-action, too. Since it has now been 30 years, I'm trying to remember how easy and smooth the single-action was. Back in the old West the gunslingers apparently got used to single-action, so this may be a moot question after re-acquaintance. For a ready access gun for bears, is the single vs. double-action a significant consideration? Or is it just a matter of practice and automaticity?

The Ruger single-action series have many models in 45 Colt and with barrels in the 4"-5" size. But they also have a Redhawk double-action in 45 Colt//45 Auto (with moon-cllip), 4.2" barrel. Should I think only in terms of the Redhawk, or would the various single-actions be fine?


I won't feel at a disadvantage with a single action as a bear defense gun as long as you practice. The idea is to hit something meaningful not spray bullets in the general direction of your target.

crshelton made some good points on the model 19 as a lightweight gun. The .357 does offer excellent penetration but it's likely beyond your noise limits you stated. I used to compete in IPSC and IDPA with a revolver and know I can stay right with the auto boys just fine in the speed department so they feel quite natural to me.

Bottom line is choose what feels best for you (I personally can't stand any Ruger DA revolver) and practice in a meaningful way until your not thinking as you shoot. It's hits on target that matter most. Stay within your accuracy envelope, speed comes with practice. As a coach I used to have would say "take your time but hurry".


_____________________________
Roger

A tyrant needs just three things to be successful; an enemy, a gullible public and a head start.

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2300 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
It looks like a person could load a 325gn Barnes Buster in a 45 Colt. Maybe 11 grn Longshot or 17 gn Titegroup for about 1000fps?

That should thump a bear. And could provide a finishing shot on most anything.


i would recommend "only in a ruger" - 250s at 1000, for finishers, haven't required a second shot, for anything i hit.. knock on wood.


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

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Posts: 35127 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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For defensive shootings Single actions take a 2nd place to double action revolvers.

For the same amount of training one will become faster with a double action.

The more hand movement the less speed.

Even more so if one is shooting one handed.

If you are having trouble shooting double action accurately you need better technique.

I think a Stainless sp101 ruger 357 with a 6 inch barrel would be a great camp/trail gun wishful thinking.

As far as grips not fitting of the 2 dozen plus double action revolvers I own only two retain.
factory grips. Most wear Pacmayer professionals.


I own Colts, S@W, Ruger, Taurus, Charter arms 2 to 7.5 inch barrels. I prefer 4 to 6 inches one of best lengths is my 5.5.

As far as weight with good holsters and belt/harness system, suspenders one can carry a good size handgun without to much trouble.


My brother owns a Taurus 6inch Ti at about 27 oz's. If you can fine one that works they carry nice.

In a police cruiser the 4s carry nicer out side doesn't really matter.

I much prefer S@W and Rugers or Rugers and S@W.

My most carried guns now are a SR1911 45acp 5 inch Glock 23, Taurus Ti 41mag 4inch, S@W 686 6inch.

I do have a Glock 35 I really like and might start carrying that more.

Just random thoughts from someone who has used/carried handguns for over 5 decades.

Most every day for over 40 of them 8 plus hrs a day.
 
Posts: 16421 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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from what I'm reading I must be undergunned when carying my EG 9mm Mak w/ 95 gr FTX's.


Jim
 
Posts: 384 | Location: Winter, Wisconsin, USA | Registered: 19 December 2010Reply With Quote
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Comment on noise: the smaller the hole, the sharper the crack. The bigger the hole the lower the boom. Think pipe organ and pitch. If you want quiet and effective a 45 caliber lead flat nose bullet at 1000 with the littlest amount of fast powder it takes to get it there. I use imr 4759 on most of my cast rifle loads and can really notice and appreciate their noise level. Ww231 is a good place to start with a pistol.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 1988 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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What kind of bears are you likely to encounter. If black bears only, I would look for a 4 " 357. I had a camp in north central PA for a number of years and had lots of big bears in the yard. All black bears so I found myself starting at a 44 Mag and working down to a short barreled 357. I did also have a 12 gauge pump with good quality slugs just inside the door.

I asked a brown bear guide in Alaska what handgun he carried. He had just bought a 500 S & W for camp but had no experience yet. He said he liked a 357 but only when he went to town where the two legged vermin were.

Today I would second the recommendation for the S&W model 69 44mag 5 shot. Much lighter and with 44 specials a nice house gun.
 
Posts: 3064 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: 11 November 2004Reply With Quote
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I really like my S&W 44 mag Mtn Gun that I have carried for at least twenty- five years. But find my 357 S&W a bit lighter easier to carry and with hard 180 gr bullets it gives virtually the same penetration and is easier to make multiple quick HITS .
And while Larger calibers do have some positive effect, from the power level of a handgun it is minimal on large dangerous game.
Placement and penetration are king.


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3825 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Placement and penetration are king


I will add having your handgun with you.
 
Posts: 16421 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by p dog shooter:
quote:
Placement and penetration are king


I will add having your handgun with you.


And being competent with it !


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 3825 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by 458Win:
quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
quote:
Placement and penetration are king


I will add having your handgun with you.


And being competent with it !


For sure
 
Posts: 16421 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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