Hello,

I'm guessing if anybody has experience, it's you here on the Handgun Hunting forum. I will add that I am not (...yet...) a handgun hunter.

I am trying to educate myself on hunting with cast bullets. A while back I bumped into an old post by Veral Smith, in which he explains his "Displacement Velocity" formula. From what I gather, they are from his book titled "Jacketed Bullet Performance with Cast Bullets."

He is very confident in his post, claiming his formula has been "proven over and over by 1000's." And that animals including elk and moose will take, at most, a couple of steps.

Problem is that after searching the internet up and down, I can't find anybody who reports on actually using his formula in the field, or it's effectiveness on game. I really want this to work!

I hope I'm not breaking any rules, but I'll will paste his post here for reference.

Thank you in advance for any experience you might have!

Here's Mr. Smith's post from 2005:

<<<<<<First understand that it is NOT a theory. I would have let you call it a concept 15 years ago, but it is now a fact, proven over and over by thousands, and no one who has tried it has questioned it's accuracy since I published it in 1990.

The easy calculation is meplat diameter in thousandths of an inch X Velocity divided by 4.

Ignore the range you'll expect to be shooting at. Just calculate it off muzzle velocity and it will be close out to as far as most can hit with a revolver or rifles which thrive on 'Pumpkin ball' type bullets.

Get the DV up to 80 minimum, for quick kills on deer and larger game, best with 100 to 125. Don't go over that very much or kill speed will go down.

If using a small caliber gun which doesn't have the omph to get the 80 minimum desired DV, you'll get good clean kills at DV's down to 60 if the bullets are placed into good vital areas of the chest. i.e. If they cut major blood vessels, heart, or the thicker parts of the lungs.

Expect approximate wound diameters straight through the muscle and organ parts of game as follows:

60 to 70 DV 1/2 inch diameter
75 to 90 DV 3/4 inch +
100 DV 1 inch +
125 DV 1 1/4 inch +
If wound diameter goes up to 1 3/8 inch or greater kill speed drops off rapidly, which means game runs quite a way before expiring. With a DV of 100 to 125, game up to elk moose and bison almost always fold in their tracks or take a few steps at most.
Veral Smith>>>>>>>

The problem with theories are the animals we hunt don’t read the same books as we do. Try not to overthink the killing process.
If you want to learn more about cast bullets I suggest you join the cast boolit forum as well as the single action forum.
Good luck

Well, a wide meplat on a .45 slug might be .40 X 1000 fps divided by 4 equals 100, a very good DV by Veral's calculation. What is missing, to me, is bullet weight. Without weight, you have no penetration.

Does a bigger hole kill faster yes no and maybe.

The more tissue destroyed the faster the animal dies most times maybe.

What was the caliber, velocity, weight and other variables such as.

How many animals were shot with each what was the bullet placement.

What was the measure distance that they moved of each.

What was the measured hole dia. of each shot.

What was the weight of the animal for each shot and each hole dia.

Personnel observation with out some science behind it is not very accurate.

I have had good results killing things with cast bullets. I have good luck killing things with jacketed bullets.

Punch a hole through the vitals and destroy enough tissue the critter will die.

I was hoping some folks had actual experience with this formula.

There were some interesting theories on that thread regarding the "why" it (supposedly) works so well. Basically, slow bullet, "small" hole, bleeds more profusely. I spoke to a surgeon friend who gave me some reasons for why that happens.

We will never have a scientific study, so observation is all we have.

It's pretty straight forward, velocity/meplat according to formula, anywhere in chest, VERY quick kills.

Mind you, I have no problem with them running a bit, I would just like to have the flexibility to use my 10mm when I'm out with a shotgun, and an opportunity arises for big game.

What I don't want is an unethical situation. Zero blood, impossible for my dog to find, and lost game.

I always carry my 10mm when I hunt grouse, and the commercial bullets I carry are hardcast.

I'll have to file the "formula" under snake-oil until I can find somebody who has experience with it.

You're probably right, I am making this much more complicated that I need to....probably should have searched/asked whether anybody has hunting with the 10mm Underwood 200 gr. hardcast...

Thank you for your replies!

quote:

I'll have to file the "formula" under snake-oil until I can find somebody who has experience with it.

yes file it under snake oil



You're probably right, I am making this much more complicated that I need to....probably should have searched/asked whether anybody has hunting with the 10mm Underwood 200 gr. hardcast...

I have shot game with hard cast 358dia, .400dia, 410dia, 429dia 458dia, hard cast bullets. of various weights and styles.

Don't be to concerned about it being a .400dia 200gr underwood hard cast.

Stick where it belongs and it well work as well as any other hard cast.

In that same weight and velocity range.

Shoot something with it in the boilerworks and it will go down. Be Well, Packy.

Veral is pretty knowledgeable in the cast bullet world. I have his book + use his lube as well as several moulds that I bought from him.

It is not snake oil. Take your 10mm and a flat nosed hardcast bullet and be happy. I have shot a ton of stuff with a 40-65 and a 250 grain flat nosed bullet, as well as a 40-70 Sharps Straight and a 390 grain flat nosed bullet, and it is deadly.

The biggest flat point practical(WFN) at a moderate speed is good medicine. Try to slow down a train. Be Well, Packy.

I have used Underwood and DoubleTap in 200 and 220 gr WFN in the 10mm in a Glock 20, S&W 610 with 5” and 6.5” barrels, Sig 1911, Dan Wesson 1911 and a 3.5” barreled Ruger GP100 and they all worked. Penetration is excellent, usually complete pass throughs sometimes through both shoulders and one from the ass through the chest

That's the kind of thing that happens when you pay attention to the principles Veral Smith has learned. Be Well, Packy.

"The more tissue destroyed the faster the animal dies most times maybe"...True story here!

Thank you all very much for your replies! This will be a new experience for me, but there are obviously a lot of people who have had positive experiences with hard cast.

My 10mm is a Glock 20, so great to hear of your experience pacecars.

Next opportunity that arises I'll have first hand knowledge!

Razor Dobbs shot three Cape Buffalo on the Outdoor Channel a while back with a 10mm Kimber. IIRC, he said he was using 200 grain flatnosed hardcast ammo by Buffalo bore. He got complete side to side penetration from 50 yards and removed the bullet from two of the animals from just under the skin with a pocket knife.

A 10mm flatnosed hardcast kills and penetrates all out of proportion to what you would expect. Better than many rifles, in fact.

You might want to be careful believing everything Dobbs puts on video. I saw one where he was doing an African hunt and he put two different hunts together to make it look like one hunt. I saw different calibers of ammo in his belt when he shot and then when he stood over his game. Never said anything about being on two different hunts. Wish I could remember what episode it was. But how do you believe anything he says? Be Well, Packy.