Anyone have some fresh reloading data and ideas. I have done searches and find few recipes.

What do you mean by "Fresh"?

You will not get new loads unless it is people like you and me IF we are playing with new powders and bullets. I do not!

I have owned 2 rifles in 6.5X54MS and they are very easy to reload to original pressures & velocity. One was an original sporter made before 1924 & had a peep sight mounted on the bolt (Lyman?)

The traditional data is tried and tested and you will not get any improvements.

Here are the issues you might find

1. The Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle has the rotary magazine that has a spindle designed for the 156 to 160 gr specific round nosed bullet. Old rifles before WW2 had 0.268 inch grooves (See Ken Waters' Pet loads). I had my rifle slugged & found the same. So you will get best results with Hornady 6.5mm Carcano bullets which are 160gr RN 0.268 inch dia. Accuracy is better with the 0.268 bullets in my rifle. PLEASE SLUG YOUR BARREL BEFORE TRYING THESE BULLETS

2. Spire point bullets do not work well in the rotary magazine and can get jammed or jump out of the magazine, which is even more annoying. I have that problem with my 9.5X57 MS using semi pointed bullets.

3. The rifles were rated for low pressure and many MS rifles have been wrecked with loads that "appeared" to be reasonable & "not excessive". So the traditional recommendations of MRP, 4831, 4350 etc. slow powders are still good. I had no luck with MRP but VV N160 & H4350 worked well.

4. If you have open sights, the rifle will not regulate with lighter bullets or higher velocities.

5. The 160gr RN bullet at 2100 to 2200 fps is unbelievably effective on deer out to 200 meters.

Having said this, Ross Seyfried used 140 gr Nosler Partitions and shot a Dall Sheep at 400 meters with a load doing around 2400 fps!

PM me if you want to chat and fluff around this great old caliber

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Anyone have some fresh reloading data and ideas. I have done searches and find few recipes.

I have tried 160 gr Hornady RN (the .264" version), 156 gr Prvi, and 140 gr spire points in my 1903. The RNs definitely feed better, but the 140s do pretty well if cycled briskly. Experimenting with seating depth is absolutely essential. Norma 139 gr factory loads perform exactly the same as the 140s. The good news is that they are all very accurate considering a 1939 era rifle and period 4X Hensoldt scope.

My loads run a little over 2100 for the 160s and 2250 for the 140s. The Norma stuff is about 75 fps hotter.

I am really looking forward to trying it on our whitetails this Fall and Winter. It is possibly the sweetest handling rifle I've ever held in my hands.

My manuals are 60s and 70s that have the 6.5 data. Just thought I needed more modern data.

My 6.5 is a 1903 made in 1920, the only problem is that spire points hang-up in the magazine unless I have an insert in place to keep them elevated. It's simpler just to load roundnose bullets that feed flawlessly. For loading I use IMR4350, as I recall, 35 grains. Cases last virtually forever so the pressure must be well within limits and the accuracy is very good with either 4x scope or factory open sights. I use "old" powders because I've never had a reason to look for anything better.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
... 1. The Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle has the rotary magazine that has a spindle designed for the 156 to 160 gr specific round nosed bullet. Old rifles before WW2 had 0.268 inch grooves (See Ken Waters' Pet loads). I had my rifle slugged & found the same. So you will get best results with Hornady 6.5mm Carcano bullets which are 160gr RN 0.268 inch dia. Accuracy is better with the 0.268 bullets in my rifle. PLEASE SLUG YOUR BARREL BEFORE TRYING THESE BULLETS

That's interesting Naki. I thought it was just the Carcano that had the bigger groove. I blocked the barrel and poured some moulten lead into the muzzle of my (shortened) 1927 Breda MS, and found the slug was a bit tighter than .268, closer to .266", since when I have fired .264 bullets with reasonable accuracy.

The local shop only had 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets, and the polymer tip probably makes them longer than similar lead-tipped ones. They are tricky to feed but I've found they work OK if seated out to be just short of the maximum magazine length. IIRC that's still a fair way from the end of the long throat.

My 2010 ADI manual lists a maximum load of AR2209 as 39.5 grains with 140-grain bullets and 37.5 with 160-grainers, but does not show starting loads.

A couple of informants have said they find 35 grains of AR2209 works well for them with the 140-grainer, but I would start a grain lower than that in an old rifle. Though I went a bit higher without obvious problems, being a chicken reloader I have backed off to 35 grains, too.

For some reason I found Remington 9.5 primers very difficult to get into my RWS cases, so will look for another brand next time.

Packrat, Nothing wrong with those loads for this particular cartridge. Very safe, very accurate and very reliable - proven in Africa and India for 50+ years.

Good to see more MS fans around who enjoy the "Gentleman's rifle" and this amazing caliber.

Hook, I agree with you, the Mannlicher Schoenauer action is the slickest and the rifles are the sweetest handling ever. Smoother than any Sako or Tikka I ever owned including the classic 1970s models.

Here are some of my tested loads in the 1903 (pre 1924) sporter - 24 inch barrel.

140 gr bullets - 2420 fps with 43 gr of N160
140 gr bullets - 2370 fps with 42 gr of N160 - final load
160 gr bullets - 2170 fps with 40 gr of N160

140 gr bullets - 2345 fps with 40 gr of AR2209 (H4350)
140 gr bullets - 2320 fps with 36 gr of AR2208 (Varget)

With peep sights, I got 5 shot groups of 2 inches at 100 meters - the 160gr load!

Frontal shot on Fallow doe - low throat penetrated 8 inches of spine with no blood shot meat!

A friend in India used the 156gr RN on Sambar stag in the 1970s and got fantastic results.

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
My manuals are 60s and 70s that have the 6.5 data. Just thought I needed more modern data.

Normas data
http://norma.cc/us/Ammunition-...ding-Data/65x54-M-S/

Wow. Those are a lot faster than the traditional loads. I wonder what rifle was used in the data collection.

With 42 gr of MRP & 160 gr bullets I got 1860 fps in the 18 inch carbine. That would not have been more than 2050 fps in the sporter.

Honestly - I do not trust that data. But who am I to argue with Norma!

Here is a picture of my sporter. I wish I could have kept it.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
Normas data
http://norma.cc/us/Ammunition-...ding-Data/65x54-M-S/

Naki, I think Norma IS pretty serious about their velocities. I scored several boxes of older Norma ammo at a gun show, most were 139 gr but there was also a box of 156 gr. In my stutzen with it's 17.7" barrel, the 156 gr loads averaged 2305 fps and the 139 gr loads were 2295 fps. Not exactly sure why the inversion of velocities, but their 156 gr stuff is too warm for my tastes. My 140 gr reloads are close to their 139 gr velocities, but still somewhat slower.


I pulled the remainder of the 156 gr bullets and reloaded them to the same velocity as my 160 gr Hornady loads. Probably not absolutely necessary, but I have no desire to stress my stutzen.

Thanks for that Hook.

Yours is a nice 1950s rifle and should have no issues.

All the horror stories I heard were from old rifles before 1924 I think.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Thanks for that Hook.

Yours is a nice 1950s rifle and should have no issues.

All the horror stories I heard were from old rifles before 1924 I think.

1939 build. Somewhat unusual in that it is still marked 'Made in Austria', not changed to Germany.

Wow!

My apologies.

I never knew that they had Made in Germany mark on them. I Thought they were always Austrian made.

The Nazis annexed Austria and took over Steyr in 1938. The changed the rollmark to 'Made in Germany' until the factory closed at the end of the war. It was switched back to made in Austria when it eventually reopened.


Apparently, the change was spotty at the beginning. My stutzen is dated '39' but still marked Austria. Another guy I heard from has one with a '38' date but marked Germany. Go figure!

These dates, are they under the wood line? With the serial number on top of the chamber? Mine says it is a 1903. But there is a front claw mount over the front of the action. It cuts off the legend on the action.

Yes sir.....the date will be under the wood at the front of the action. Typically, it will be in the form of xxxx.xx with the two numbers after the decimal place being the year of manufacture: i.e., 26 means built in 1926, etc. The first set of numbers indicates what order it was produced that year; i.e., 469 means it was the 469th rifle to leave the factory in 1926 and so forth.


My rifle, being built during the takeover of Steyr by the Germans, is different. The action and the barrel are both stamped '39' indicating 1939, but there is no decimal or other numbers indication order.

Off the topic a bit, but I have a 100% original 1903, completely unmolested. Not sure of the date as I have never taken it out of the stock. My issue is, that with Hornady 160gr. rn bullets, it hit right at 10" high at 50 yds. and prints snake eyes. The front sight is just a brass blade that is fairly short. The obvious quick fix is to replace the front sight but as of yet have not found one the right size to fit the dovetail, never mind how tall it is. Have any of you experienced this, or have a solution I have not thought about. I do not want to do anything that can't be reversed and return it to its original condition. I just really want to hunt with it.

This is a highly "Americanized" 1903. As the second photo shows it was the 5005th one produced in 1920 and C6.5 shows it was chambered for 6.5x54MS. It shoots quite well either with the B&L Balfor 4x scope or the open sights. The 160 gran RNs function best through the action but old 125 gr Nosler Partitions work quite well at extending the effective range.

Thanks, Ray, for showing what I was trying to explain. Pictures do a much better job!

Here is a picture of mine showing the aberration from that format. Don't know if this was done throughout the Nazi occupation, but it certainly was on mine....

Using 6.5 Arasaka or 6.5 Carcano data and adjust to your liking from there.I think heavy bullets and slower powders are your best bet. By slower I mean any powder slower than 4064, 414, 4320, H-380. Play with it and develop your own data bank. roger

My 1910 has just .30 marked and no numbers before that to indicate order sequence.

It has the C9.5 designation for the 9.5X57MS

The serial number is on the side and just above the wood line.

I fully agree that using a reliable source to get data is a great idea.But ,than how did the reliable source get their data??? roger

From the 2014 Woodleigh loading book.

160 grn Woodleigh
28.5 - 31.5 max H4895 2000fps
30 - 33.5 max varget 2100 fps
33 - 37.5 max H4350 2100
36 - 40 max H4831sc 2250 fps

Personally, I found the 140 grn sierra to shoot well with oversize bores. The long bearing surface of the bullet I expect.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
From the 2014 Woodleigh loading book.

160 grn Woodleigh
28.5 - 31.5 max H4895 2000fps
30 - 33.5 max varget 2100 fps
33 - 37.5 max H4350 2100
36 - 40 max H4831sc 2250 fps

Personally, I found the 140 grn sierra to shoot well with oversize bores. The long bearing surface of the bullet I expect.

Thanks for adding that data.....did they list a barrel length?

This is the only load I have recorded for my German friends 6.5x54MS. Possibly was the load I used to shoot two Roe bucks when in Germany, I know we were reloading these Hornady bullets at the time and they were very accurate in his rifle.
After he emigrated to NZ we did some chrony work with a variety of the firearms he brought with him.
Norma N202 powder is equivalent to Varget on my powder chart but of course reloader beware.

Mannlicher Schoenauer Bolt Action
22" Barrel

129 gr Hornady Spire Point
Norma N202 powder
39.0 grs load
CCI 200 primer
RWS case

18.12.88 2663 MV

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

Love your Bausch & Lomb set-up, Ray. Do you find any deficiency in the plunger mount that could account for their replacing it with the daisy-wheel type?