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Lee vs RCBS neck sizers
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I currently own all RCBS equipment with the exception of LEE shellholders and trim tool/gauges. All die sets I have are FL sizer/seater combos. I would like to start neck sizing some loads to see if I can get them a little tighter.
My question is: are there any big differences between RCBS and Lee neck sizing dies? Form, function, etc. I know RCBS is a bit more, but I'll gladly pay a few dollars more for quality and/or product support.
 
Posts: 139 | Location: Fairmont, WV | Registered: 08 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Yes, El Guapo, there is.

The Lee neck sizer is a collet type. It works by compressing a four-petal collet around the neck and against a mandrel that is the size you want the final inside diameter of the brass (or just smaller to account for springback). The Lee collet die has the added advantage of using no lubricant and having nothing to clean off of cases.

The convenional RCBS neck sizer is made just like a FL die except that the body is somewhat wider so that only the neck touches the die. The problem with this type of neck sizer is that it CAN result in a neck that is slightly out of square with the case body.

Most people prefer to do what is termed "partial full length resizing" with a FL die. The FL die is back off of the shellholder head by about .05", which usually allows the body of the die to align the neck but does not push back the shoulder, thus the perfect headspacing of neck sizing is achieved.

RCBS also has a new die system with which I'm not familiar that can be used for neck sizing. Maybe someone can fill both of us in on it.
 
Posts: 13214 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Big difference. IMO you can't beat the Lee Collet Neck Sizers for convenience, consistant low runout and price.

Convenient because there is no lube necessary because there is no expander ball that has to be jerked back through the neck. The only comparable die for neck sizing is the Redding Type S bushing die, which also does not have an expander ball, but those are expensive.

Pair it with a Redding Body Die for when you need to push the shoulder back.

To me, neck sizing is sizing all or part of the neck without sizing any part of the shoulder or case body.

Partial Full Length Resizing is sizing the case body and pushing the shoulder back to relieve the severe crush fit and goes all the way to where there is a slight crush fit. In other words the case is still compressed between the bolt head and chamber, but without much pressure. This usually happens about a 1/4 turn past where the die hits the shell holder.

Full Length Resizing is where there is headspace and the case is not held in compression between the bolt head and chamber.

Back to the subject, the Lee Collet Dies yield consistantly lower runout than a full length die, are cheap and easy to use.


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There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

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Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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WOW!! A bit more information than I expected! It appears to me from your replies that the Lee neck dies are more or less the most convenient way to go.
But now I have another question... You both spoke of partial length resizing. Is this something, with experimentation, that will achieve the same thing as neck sizing? Stonecreek mentioned being .050 inch off the shellholder, while Woods mentioned being 1/4 turn past contact with the shellholder. I'm just a little confused there. Not seeing the forest for the trees?
I can see where a "slight crush fit" would be better than "severe crush fit"; so, would Partial Length Resizing be more beneficial than just neck sizing in the long run?
 
Posts: 139 | Location: Fairmont, WV | Registered: 08 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Hey C H,

H C (Hot Core) should be along shortly to explain all this to us again as he is our resident proponent of PFLR (even though he uses old fashioned methods to do it stir)

quote:
You both spoke of partial length resizing. Is this something, with experimentation, that will achieve the same thing as neck sizing?


The jury is still out with me as far as what is the most accurate out of Neck Sizing, PFLR or FLR. The thing is that NS is the most convenient and should be the most accurate. But you will only be able to NS for a few (usually 2 to 3) reloads on a case before the crush fit becomes too tight and the bolt becomes too hard to close to use in most situations, especially hunting. No one likes to have to really crank a shell into the chamber. So then you have to PFLR or FLR to move the shoulder back to relieve the crush fit.

Since I PFLR, I will say this, once you have to move the shoulder back on a particular case, you will have to move it back on each subsequent loading. So the stages for me are:

New cases - typically just expanding the brass to fit the chamber and to hold more powder. Most of the time the new cases will not hold a full load of the slower burning powders that are my hunting loads.

Once fired to fired 4 times - neck sizing. The easiest to do, just use the Lee Collet and no other sizing is necessary. No lube needed.

4th firing to end of case life - PFLR. I then use the Lee Collet Neck Sizer and the Redding Body Die. The body die can be set to move the shoulder back .001" to .0015" if you have a good gauge like the Stoney Point Head and Shoulders Gauge. That is still a slight crush fit which chambers easy but makes me feel like I am still getting the benefits of Neck Sizing.

quote:
Stonecreek mentioned being .050 inch off the shellholder, while Woods mentioned being 1/4 turn past contact with the shellholder. I'm just a little confused there.


Well, let's go through a brief explanation of the sequence when sizing with a FL die:

1st stage - neck sizing only from approx minus (or up) 3/4 turn from the shellholder. Only the neck is resized but the amount of neck resized varies according to how far away from the shellholder you adjusted the die.

2nd stage - continued neck sizing but case body sizing also. The die starts to resize the case body at about 3/4 turn up and in the process of squeezing the case body pushes the shoulder forward and creates a crush fit. This crush fit will continue until about 1/4 turn down, where the die contacts the shoulder.

3rd stage - pushing the shoulder back enough to have some crush fit but not much. This is PFLR. From my measurements, the crush fit completely goes away when you have pushed the shoulder back .002". So to me, PFLR is defined as where the shoulder has been pushed back .0005" to .002". This happens on an RCBS FL die at about 1/8 turn past the contact with the shellholder. It doesn't take much die adjustment to make a big difference in shoulder movement.

4th stage - moving the shoulder back far enough so that you create headspace and there is no compression fit of the case between the bolt face and the chamber shoulder. No crush fit, best if you are hunting dangerous game, etc. According to the RCBS instructions for a FL die, set the die 1/4 turn past where it hits the shellholder.

So, typically (because it depends on your chamber), in most factory chambers PFLR happens about 1/8 turn past the shellholder, IMO.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Thanks Woods so much for your reply and your time. Hopefully I don't get too annoying with questions.
OK so the way I am understanding this, @ 3/4 turn above shellholder, only neck sizing occurs. Obviously, at some point in time (after repeated firings), the shoulder will have to be pushed back to allow proper fit in the chamber. At this point, PFLR will need to be done to correct shoulder location, but, (using RCBS FLSD) this in turn also sizes the body of the die? Losing the cartridge to chamber fire form?
Using the Redding body die, instead of FLSD, I can relocate the shoulder without resizing the body?
I do realize, over time, a FLR will be necessary to keep things from getting overly tight in the chamber and prevent excessive pressure to close the bolt. I think I am gathering and comrehending everything here. Am I getting close?
 
Posts: 139 | Location: Fairmont, WV | Registered: 08 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Almost

quote:
Using the Redding body die, instead of FLSD, I can relocate the shoulder without resizing the body?


The Redding Body Die resizes the case body also.

quote:
a FLR will be necessary to keep things from getting overly tight in the chamber and prevent excessive pressure to close the bolt.


No, you can PFLR in perpetuity since the body die sizes the body and shoulder.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I'm largly in agreement with Woods on his descriptions. However, you must remember that the relationship between the die and the shellholder depends not only on the dimensions of your chamber (which can and does vary significantly from rifle to rifle), but also on the dimensions of your sizing die, which also varies according to manufacturer and lot, AND the dimensions of your shellholder (thickness of the lips). All of this adds up to the need to carefully adjust your FL die progressively deeper in the press until you can close the bolt on a resized case with just the amount of desired resistance.

With some guns/dies, this has actually required me to grind a little off of the shellholder in order to resized the case enough. With other combinations, the case shoulder is encountered well before the shellholder touches the die base.

Every gun and die is an individual.
 
Posts: 13214 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Ok I believe I'm on the same page now. I realize there is no set number of turns, etc that is set in stone to achieve what I am looking for. After doing more reading, and after what your replies has led me to believe, I believe I'll skip the investment of neck dies at this time and experiment with PFLResizing for a while.

I am really going to have to back up a bit to my rifle itself to get good accuracy. i have, in the not so distant past, used not so good cleaning practices, and need to basically start over in my cleaning/break-in process with proper chemicals (read Sweets7.62). I know, first things first. I think I may have to actually get a good cleaning rod(s) as well as I won't even mention what I've used in the past.:-0
I have learned ALOT from this site, as well as others, I read most every post as it comes along, as well as archives. I try not to bring something up that has already been covered and just ask questions I'm still unsure about.

Thanks again for all your help!!!!!!!!!
 
Posts: 139 | Location: Fairmont, WV | Registered: 08 February 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by woods:
...H C (Hot Core) should be along shortly to explain all this to us again as he is our resident proponent of PFLR (even though he uses old fashioned methods to do it stir)...
Hey CH, Woods and Stonecreek did an excellent job of describing the process for P-FLRing.

Since you have the RCBS FL Die Sets, there is really no need for you to buy a thing in order to P-FLR.

That said, I'd encourage you to buy " 1 " Neck Sizer Die of your choice for which ever rifle/cartridge combination is your most accurate. That way you can do a Blind Comparison Test between the P-FLRed cases and the NSed cases.

Load up 15-18 that have been Sized using both styles, then have a buddy hand them to you at the Range without telling you which ones you are shooting. Shoot all 15-18 on a single Target and be honest with yourself if you happen to Flinch one out - cross it off.

When you get through, see which Style provides the very best accuracy for you and go with which ever one it happens to be.

For me it is always P-FLR, but I've no argument with the folks who prefer NSing. In fact, I really prefer they NS when shooting against me to see who buys the BBQ for supper. Wink

Best of luck to you.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Hot Core, with the comments here I've read, i believe I'll take ya'lls word for it and experiment with PFLRing. I can spend my money in better places, like on a chrony!!

Again, many thanks Woods, Stonecreek, and Hot Core

Charlie
 
Posts: 139 | Location: Fairmont, WV | Registered: 08 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Although you guys have Charlie all set to go on this subject,

I thought I'd throw in my fast 2 cents worth...

Considering the cost of powder, bullets etc... I have always considered Lee Deluxe die sets a cheap investment...the ones that come with the full size and neck sizing die, along with the decapping die....for about $28.00 tops via Midway and Cabelas...

I have both RCBS and a set of Lees Dies for the major calibers I shoot most....

I find the RCBS has certain advantages at times over using the Lees, and vice versa on others...

Plus a pair of dies in each caliber always leaves ya with a back up....

I can buy the Lee Deluxe Dies anyway for the cost of ONE RCBS neck sizing die anyway...

Lee's RGB (Really Great Buy) Dies for $10.00 are also a great investment for a back up set of dies... they work pretty darn good.. I have them in about 6 or 7 calibers I have picked up casually on trips to a Cabelas or Sportsman's Warehouse...

For UNDER the price of a box of bullets, and lasting forever, I don't think any serious reloader would be without a back up set in his most commonly used calibers...

The only dies I have that I really don't like are several sets of Hornady.... and then a Forrester die set in 6.5 x 57.....

But I have also picked up 4 dies of Hornady's Universal neck sizing dies, in 22 cal, 6mm, 6.5 mm and 30 cal...Adjust them right and they work pretty darn slick...and at about $17.50 the price isn't that bad!

" and that's all I gotta say 'bout that"....

cheers
seafire
cheers
 
Posts: 16144 | Location: Southern Oregon USA | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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