Woods,
if you aren't measuring headpsace, then please don't call what you are measuring "headspace" .. call it phantashmagoria or lemon, but lets not confuse "HEADSPACE" with something else.

New brass will ALWAYS be undersized, which is why it has nothing to do with the statements at hand or the initial issue. Always, as in 100% of the cases (pun intended) be under spec size, and within, but smaller than, the tightest spec chamber.. always. (which is generally +/- .0015)

Lets put it another way, you state -.001 is what you set your dies to. GREAT, works for you.. BUT you don't set your dies to -.001 from unfired cases, as that is "nothing' .. in fact, if the case came out PURPLE in length, PURPLE -.001 is what you are setting your dies to... the initial length of the brass slug before it enters the case forming dies from the maker has exactly the same relavance as measuring unfired cases.. none.

Alf's cases are as a result of someone overworking belted cases, and it happens all the time. why? people don't know how to setup their dies correctly...

then again, 99% of reloaders don't anneal cases, either

long and short of it, you are measuring something, and it works for you, but what you are measuring is FIRED CASE DIMENSIONS not headspace.

jeffe

Sorry to intrude, but some 25 + years ago me and Mike Bellm, previous owner of P.O. Ackley's Custom Rifle Shop in Salt Lake, grabbed a couple of handfulls of magnum brass and began measuring the distance from the fwd edge of the belt to the case heads. What we found was unnerving. The dimensions were all over the place. I don't recall the exact amount of variation but .013 or .017 over no-go seems likely. Remember, this was early 1980 something.

With this info firmly planted in my brain housing group, I began cutting belted chambers on the snug side of "go". For those handloading belted cases, I always recommend fire forming each round and then treating it like any other non-belted case, setting up to headspace off the shoulder. Doing so keeps the brass from stretching and separating, and it keeps case shift to a minimum which only adds to the accuracy of the belted cartridge.

For an eye opener, I recommend those with belted case get a belt gauge made to check your brass. This way you can sort the long from the short and treat them accordingly. I'll make one up for you Woods if you would like, based on the belt measurement from your set up round and get it in the mail.

Malm, you are a gentleman and a scholar. I know you are extra busy trying to help with the workload of that other gunsmith going out of business plus your own work load. But when you get the chance, that would be great. A new "thingy" to play with! Excellent. Have you found your 338RUM reamer to see what the neck size is yet?

jeffe, I know that technically on a belted case it is not headspace until the case fire forms to the shoulder. With an unbelted case, the measurements I am taking are headspace. As I understand it headspace is measured from the case head to whatever part of the case stops forward movement by contact with the chamber, either the front of the rim on rimmed cases, the front of the belt on a belted case or the shoulder on an unbelted case that does not index on the rim. I found this definition

quote:

Headspace is the measurement between two points in a rifle's chamber. These points are the boundaries of cartridge movement when a cartridge is chambered. In strict SAAMI terms headspace is the distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.

When a belted case starts to contact at the shoulder then you are "headspacing on the shoulder" and the belt becomes irrelevant as far as headspacing goes.

If I set the shoulder back from a crush fit .001", even on a belted case, I am measuring headspace, which may be meaningless to you but is significant and useful to me.

quote:

Headspace is the measurement between two points in a rifle's chamber. These points are the boundaries of cartridge movement when a cartridge is chambered. In strict SAAMI terms headspace is the distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.

This was the confusion I had over what Woods was refering to as 'excess headspace' - the difference between an unfired case and a fired case (which still has a little springback). But he did say 'excess headspace' and he did explain exactly what he meant! By the above, 'headspace clearance' would be the clearance between bolt face and a standard for that chambering that allows the bolt to close. Thanks for clarifying, Woods. And to Westpac too.

Good Shooting!

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
.I know that technically on a belted case it is not headspace until the case fire forms to the shoulder.

No sir, headspace is set when chambered. In HH cases, NO COMMERICAL heqdspace gage has a shoulder, it is off the belt in the factory. is it the best way? No, but anyone that actually knows how to set their dies (as you describe) for partial resize sets their dies for their rifle

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
With an unbelted case, the measurements I am taking are headspace. ......

Yes, in unbelted, unrimmed, and not headspaced of the case mouth, so it is apparent you understand what headspace is

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
If I set the shoulder back from a crush fit .001", even on a belted case, I am measuring headspace,

No, sir, you are not measuring headspace, you are measuring how you set YOUR dies for partial resize.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
which may be meaningless to you but is significant and useful to me.

Lets not put words into my mouth. I have stated that what you are measuring, which appears to be very useful in fired cases, is a means to set your dies to your rifle. You are not, in fact, measuring the industry term of HEADSPACE. What I said was meaningless, and you continue to reinforce, is that the differential measurement between unfired cases and your fired cases, per gun, is meaningless. That number has NO FUNCTION..

example
take 3 different 7 remmags, fire the cases, and then measure them (notice we didn't before firing)

you will probably get three different measurements, right? that's been your pointm, that this wildly varies

then set 3 different die sets for -.001 resize

and now you are partial resizing, perfectly for each rifle..

yet factory brass size, as you ARE going to fireform to the chamber, doesn't actually enter into the equation...

and, even though the brass is set perfectly for each rifle, you aren't altering the HEADSPACE of the rifle.. that's a physical measurement of the belt to boltface, in these cases.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
First and foremost, COMMERCIAL reamers and chambers are NOT DESIGNED to allow for reloading, they are designed to be safe with factory ammo. ...

Welllll, Yes indeed. Waaaaaay back when Vernon Speer, Dick Speer, Fred Huntington, Joyce Hornady, and the more younger Richard Lee, Dillon and folks like them decided to create Reloading Tools and Components.......

they all knew there was no market segment for providing Reloading Equipment to people who had any firearm that the Chamber had been cut with "COMMERCIAL reamers". Instead they decided to build their businesses on the other 0.000000000000000000001% of the market where peoples firearms were only reamed with, exotic, super-duper, extremely tight-spec, CUSTOM MADE REAMERS.

That is why it is totally, completely and utterly impossible to Reload any Factory Chambered Firearm in existance today and expect any kind of passable Accuracy or Component Life!!!!!
-----

And that my friends, is your JOKE OF THE DAY.

Hot Core,
You missed the point, and by a wide margin.

With EVERY firearms maker having handload and reload exclusions from their warranty .. well, now, what does THAT say?

It says that they aint intended for you to reload, and ifin you do, you are on your own...

which is why those boys found a market segment and something to sell.

Call up ruger and tell them their rifles don't shoot very well with your handloads....

"click"
will be the answer

Weatherby?
click

remington
click ..still there? CLICK

winchester
"we are sorry, that line is not currently in service"

CZ
CLICK

Sako
cli-click (doubletap over the trans atlantic waires)

Savage?
HAHAHAHAHHA .. click

Marlin?
No, wait, that's remington again..
CLICK

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Hot Core,
You missed the point, and by a wide margin.

With EVERY firearms maker having handload and reload exclusions from their warranty .. well, now, what does THAT say?...

To me it says they want the "User" to use Cartridges that they believe have been properly tested in $$$Million$$$ Test Labs. This is the only control they have to prevent Unjustified Law Suits when people build a Bomb and stick it in the Chamber. Or when they underload a Cartridge and shoot two back to back without checking the Bore for the first Bullet.

If I owned the Firearm's Manufacturer, I would also include a Statement in the Owner's Manual Warranty that says "Any indication of a HSGS being attached - Voids the Warranty." That is due to the way I think about the vast majority of HSGS users, like denton, who don't know their clinton from a hole in the ground. That doesn't mean they are all fools though.
-----

Since the Warning concerning "Reloads Void the Warranty" is in the Manuals, I'd never really considered calling the manufacturers and mentioning that I was using Reloads. I don't follow that logic. But I can see where they would be interested in obtaining the Serial # of the firearm that the call was about before you hear the "Click".

quote:

How do you explain the Hart barrel having an excess headspace of .015" on Nosler 280AI new brass? How about the factory Steyr 30-06 or the factory Remington 22-250? None of those are belted. I submit that excess headspace on cases has as much to do with the brass manufacturer as it does the rifle manufacturer.

I have very few factory fresh cases. My behavior is better described as compulsive, but new brass gets sized, trimmed, and primed very soon after arrival.

I size to get the case neck dents out, and I trim to make everything the same.

I did find that I have new, unsized 308 Winchester cases. And I dropped them into my Wilson case gage. The cartridge headspace is between the “Go†and “No go†marks.

Wonderful.

So how do I explain your measurements? To start with you are measuring things with a non calibrated gage. Yes, you are using the manufacturer’s recommended collets, but that does not mean you are using a calibrated gage.

I would believe that Steyr company has a Calibration Department. And were I to go there I would find that their floor gages are calibrated, dated, and regularly checked against the standards in the Calibration lab. I would also expect to find that the standards in the Calibration lab have records and traceability to a National Standard.

I also believe the ammunition manufacturers have a calibration department. Of course my sample of one is not definitive, but I will place my faith that Winchester, Remington, IMI brass is within SAAMI specs when it is delivered to my door.

Your comparator is just some device. The measurements you are taking are essentially random numbers. At best you can compare a dimensional change before and after firing, based on a random and arbitrary shoulder location.

If you want to know what is going on, buy some calibrated gages, and then, after that, we have a starting point to determine if you have a problem.

Since you brought it back up, let's talk about it.

I know that my gauge is not calibrated to any SAAMI standard. The measurements are only useful in their relationship to each other. The measurements however are very exact. It does not matter whether they are taken on exactly the datum line



or not as long as they are taken on the same place everytime.

Why should I want to buy a gauge that will only tell you if you are in the ballpark or not? I prefer to know exactly how much my shoulder is moving after each firing to the .0005".

So I suggest you buy a "device" that will actually give you something to work with rather than "Well, I must be allright, I'm between go and no-go!" Your guns have a certain amount of clearance between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder, you just don't know how much. Pardon me, but I do.

You've seen westpac, who I believe is an excellent gunsmith post that my rebarrel was just under the go on his gauge and seen what I was measuring for shoulder expansion. Hart barrels sent me an e-mail explaining their chamber was within SAAMI specs and gave me the neck dimensions. I'm sure they used a "in the ballpark" gauge also.

I see you measured a new case. I am not familiar with that gauge but I suspect that it would show "go" no matter how much shoulder space there was. The discussion here has mainly been related to the amount of expansion on the first firing of new cases to fire formed cases. What good then is that gauge to our discussion? If a fire formed case was "in the ballpark" that would still not tell you how much the shoulder had moved from a new case dimension.

Tell you what, I will buy a Wilson "in the ballpark" 338 win mag case if you will buy the gauge I use and I will take digital pics to confirm. Then we can compare and talk. Or do you think that I am the only one here that can learn something?

quote:

Tell you what, I will buy a Wilson "in the ballpark" 338 win mag case if you will buy the gauge I use and I will take digital pics to confirm.

The gage I used was a Wilson Go-No go gage. I have dropped in rifle headspace gages into these, this one in particular, and the lower "Go" and upper "No Go" of the cartridge gage always corresponds with the rifle headspace gages.

I do not understand what you meant by shoulder space, but if you oversize the case, and drop it into this gage, the case will be below the "Go" step.

This gage does not measure "fatness".

I do have a Sinclair Comparator, along with their bullet seating gage. All very useful.

I could not find a headspace gage for the 7.5 Swiss. So I used my Sinclair comparator to set up my seating dies. Sinclair did not have a recommended donut to use, so I picked the one that took a mid shoulder measurement. I took measurements off of fired cases, unfired cases. However I set up my sizing die based on the fired cases.

It is a useful device. I have found, for my purposes, the Go- No Go wilson type gages to be easier to use.

You have a point about knowing where the shoulder angle varies. I have examined cases from a number of different 308 rifles and it is obvious that shoulder angle and shape varies between manufacturers. However, when I run headspace gages through these rifles, they headspace.

So some aspects of reamer profiles must not be controlled.

If the 338 Win Mag is a belted mag, you would be better off purchasing the Sinclair version of a cartridge headspace gage. It allows you to set the gage to measure off the shoulder.

I think it has been said before, these belted mags are headspaced off the belt. So the shoulder length is not controlled by a specification. In that case, a Sinclair Comparator is as good as anything, even their cartridge headspace gage.

But for rimless, give me a Go- No Go gage.

A question for you woods. Will the Hornady Lock-n-Load guage handle the LARGE cases? By that I mean one that I reload for is a 338-378 Weatherby... It would be nice to have such a guage if it will fit my needs...

Ken....

quote:

Originally posted by Heat:
A question for you woods. Will the Hornady Lock-n-Load guage handle the LARGE cases? By that I mean one that I reload for is a 338-378 Weatherby... It would be nice to have such a guage if it will fit my needs...

Ken....

Ken

The gauge would certainly take a measurement on the shoulder. In the bushing chart of the 6 bushing you get it lists the largest at:

.420" - 284 win, 7 mm rem mag, 300 win mag, 8 mm rem mag, 338 win mag, 375 H & H, 7 mm STW, 7 mm Ultra Mag, 300 Ultra Mag and 338 Ultra Mag

No 338-378 listed there but the body of the case sticks outside the bushing



so that you would get a reading on the shoulder. As I have stated, that measurement is useful for your own records and setting up sizing dies and will be very useful in it's relationship to the subsequent readings you take on the cases after firings. It will aid significantly in your understanding of what stage your cases are going through.

Please get one and let us know the initial excess shoulder headspace on that caliber. I'll bet it is significant.

slamfire, I've got a question. The Wilson gauge shows

quote:

I did find that I have new, unsized 308 Winchester cases. And I dropped them into my Wilson case gage. The cartridge headspace is between the “Go†and “No go†marks.

Wonderful.

so the new cases were "in the ballpark". I can't read the headstamp on the cases but I assume they were typical commercially bought cases. Do you think that the new commercially bought cases I use (WW, Nosler, Remington and Norma) would not fit and be "wonderful" in your gauge? I would assume so. So what information would your gauge provide?

quote:

Do you think that the new commercially bought cases I use (WW, Nosler, Remington and Norma) would not fit and be "wonderful" in your gauge? I would assume so. So what information would your gauge provide?

You had asked a question about why 30-06 cases and other cases were so much smaller when new, and later, had grown after their first firing.

I suspected then, and suspect now, because you were not using a calibrated gage, your measurements do not conclusively show that the brass was out of spec.

However I wanted to see if something was funny about new brass, so I found some cases and measured them. In a calibrated gage.

The brass was within Go and No Go.

I suspect if you buy calibrated gages and measure new unfired brass, it should be within spec. Or at least, if it is not within spec, you can trust the measurements.

Standardization and calibration is something that has taken hundreds of years to institute, but it works.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Heat:
A question for you woods. Will the Hornady Lock-n-Load guage handle the LARGE cases? By that I mean one that I reload for is a 338-378 Weatherby... It would be nice to have such a guage if it will fit my needs...

Ken....

Ken

The gauge would certainly take a measurement on the shoulder. In the bushing chart of the 6 bushing you get it lists the largest at:

.420" - 284 win, 7 mm rem mag, 300 win mag, 8 mm rem mag, 338 win mag, 375 H & H, 7 mm STW, 7 mm Ultra Mag, 300 Ultra Mag and 338 Ultra Mag

No 338-378 listed there but the body of the case sticks outside the bushing so that you would get a reading on the shoulder. As I have stated, that measurement is useful for your own records and setting up sizing dies and will be very useful in it's relationship to the subsequent readings you take on the cases after firings. It will aid significantly in your understanding of what stage your cases are going through.

Please get one and let us know the initial excess shoulder headspace on that caliber. I'll bet it is significant.

Thanks woods... By looking at that setup I'm sure it would work... The hard part with the Weatherby cases is that double radius shoulder.. This would eliminate that issue .. If nothing else I would get an idea of how much the shoulders moved after the first firing... The chamber is pretty tight but because of the belt I can't tell if it's tight on the belt or the shoulder... It does chamber the same after PFL resizing from a once fired case compared to a new case.. I'll pick one up and see what the results are... Thanks again...

Ken....