Do I need to buy a hydraulic form die for these?

Or are they similar enough that I can do it with the sizing dies.

I have a ton of RWS 30-06 and 308.

308 to 260 would be no big deal. Neck it down in a couple steps with a type-S sizing die and turn the neck to correct thickness.

Making 280AI from '06 might require a "brass stretcher" but I'm sure you could produce something close to a 280 and then fire form. You'd never have to trim!!!


Zeke

Either .280 or .280 AI is a cinch from .30-06. Simply run the case into the .280 die only far enough to allow the bolt to close on the case with slight resistance. This creates a "false shoulder" at the shoulder-neck junction which allows the cartridge to headspace perfectly and be perfectly centered in the chamber. The case will look a little odd with the appearance of a two-step shoulder, but this is of no consequence. When fired it will take on the exact shape of the chamber (either regular or ethyl).

I have NEVER used any brass other than .30-06 in my .280 (or in my 7x64 for that matter). Unfired brass shoots just as accurately on the first firing as fire-formed brass, so I hunt with whichever I have on hand.

I load a normal full load on the first firing. If you are using a very slow powder in an improved chamber then you might not be able to get all of the powder in a freshly formed case, but that depends on your load density.

Case length: Oh, yeah, the '06 brass starts out at a nominal 2.494", while the .280 is 2.54". However, necking down and firing the '06 brass will cause it to stretch a bit and will put it right at the "trim-to" length for .280 brass. No problem there.

Squeezing .308 to .260 is no problem at all. Just be sure your cases are properly lubed. Sometimes reducing the necks by that much will make them too thick and require neck turning or reaming -- but it is a rare factory chamber that won't accept them just as they come out of the die.

Making 6.5 Creedmore is a little more involved since you would need to trim; but none of these operations requires anything other than a full length conventional sizing die of the correct caliber.

Rim diameter for the 6.8CM is different than the 308 Win. case as well.

Rim diameter for the 6.5 Creedmoor is exactly the same as the 308.
6.8 CM; IDK.
6.5 Creedmoor is derived from the 250 Savage, which has the same head diameter as a 300 Savage, which has the same as the 308 Win. Making 6.5 CM from anything else; you just have to watch neck thickness but the actual forming is a piece of cake. Brass is very ductile; nothing requires a hydraulic die, what ever that is. Unless you are forming heads, which in your two examples, you aren't.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Rim diameter for the 6.5 Creedmoor is exactly the same as the 308.
6.8 CM; IDK.
6.5 Creedmoor is derived from the 250 Savage, which has the same head diameter as a 300 Savage, which has the same as the 308 Win. Making 6.5 CM from anything else; you just have to watch neck thickness but the actual forming is a piece of cake. Brass is very ductile; nothing requires a hydraulic die, what ever that is. Unless you are forming heads, which in your two examples, you aren't.

I stand corrected. I must have pulled up the wrong cartridge case info.

It appears that the 6.5 CM may have been derived from the .30 TC.

quote:

Originally posted by Ske1eter
It appears that the 6.5 CM may have been derived from the .30 TC.

No "may". It was.

quote:

Originally posted by Ske1eter:
Rim diameter for the 6.8CM is different than the 308 Win. case as well.

I have been using standard 308 cases converted to 6.5 CM.

Work perfectly.

I don't even consider the 30 TC to be legitimate enough to be the parent of anything; dumbest cartridge idea probably ever. (Yes I know the history)
It was too close to the 300 Savage so it was dead before it hit the ground. 300 Marlin is in the same boat. Sinking boat. No, sunk.

All of the above came from the 7x57 Mauser -- some were stretched, some were cut back, some were blown out -- but all share the original case head which is a nominal .473". With the right dies, trimming, neck thinning, proper annealing, and enough patience you can make any of them from a .30-06 case.

hydraulic forming is used to pre-shape a case before firing it.
usually a short shouldered case is used and hydro formed up to the longer bodied case.

Hornady makes the hydro forming kits, they ain't catalogued so you have to call them to order one.
airc the last one I looked at was like 110$

Brass is plentiful for both of the cartridges you want to form to.
Why not just sell off the brass you have and buy the properly headstamped brass with the proceeds, not only saving time but maybe money as well.
What you are proposing seems like a lot of tinkering to get where you are going.

quote:

What you are proposing seems like a lot of tinkering to get where you are going.

For either .280 from .30-06 or .260 from .308, all that is required is usually a single pass through the FL die -- no different than if you started with once-fired original cases. That doesn't seem like all that much tinkering, now does it?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

What you are proposing seems like a lot of tinkering to get where you are going.

For either .280 from .30-06 or .260 from .308, all that is required is usually a single pass through the FL die -- no different than if you started with once-fired original cases. That doesn't seem like all that much tinkering, now does it?

I agree Stonecreek a single pass is all you need but the other posts are proposing Hydraulic sizing and hundreds of dollars in dies.....??
If he's worried about it (which he must be, he's asking...) trade off what he's got and get the right headstamp.
It ain't rocket surgery...

quote:

I agree Stonecreek a single pass is all you need but the other posts are proposing Hydraulic sizing and hundreds of dollars in dies.....??
If he's worried about it (which he must be, he's asking...) trade off what he's got and get the right headstamp.

I think we're in perfect agreement here.

The only reason I am thinking about a $150 hydraulic forming die is because I have several thousand once fired 308 and 3006 cases from RWS.

If it was anything else I wouldn't think about it.

I have 2 308's and a 260, so I make a lot of 260 brass from 243 brass to keep headstamps separate. But 308 to 260 should be a snap.

The only reservation I would have about forming 280 brass from 06 is that they have a different datum line. The extra Diameter of the 06 neck should be plenty to headspace for fire forming, but move forward bearing that in mind and do so carefully. Otherwise standard sizing dies should work fine. All you have to do is get real good at applying the appropriate amount of lube in the right places and use a good press. Piece of cake.

Here's a photo of two .30-06 cases which have been reformed to .280 and loaded. The cartridge on the left is formed and unfired, leaving a "false shoulder" where the .280's neck/shoulder junction is. The cartridge headspaces on this new "shoulder". The second cartridge uses a case after it is fired in the .280 chamber. As you can see, it irons out nicely, conforming perfectly to the chamber.

The formed but unfired case is loaded with a full-power load and velocity and accuracy are identical to cartridges loaded the second time with the fire-formed cases.



And here's a close up of the shoulders. As you can see, upon firing the shoulder/body junction moves forward to fit the longer .280 chamber while the mid-shoulder "donut" is ironed out by the pressure of firing. These were made from once-fired .30-06 and typically if brass is only once-fired it will not require annealing prior to forming. These cases happen to be WW, but I've had similar good results with other brands.

I have never made 280 cases from 30-06 brass but the only brass I ever loaded for my 280AI I made from 30-06 brass.

Thanks gents, I'll give it a try.

I'd partially neck size [with no expander] until the cases just chamber in the .280 Rem rifle. Use a standard charge of powder and seat your bullets until they engage the lands with a little effort to close the bolt. Fire away.
No idea about how well such loads will shoot, but if one was doing 500 cases, IMO that would be 500 rounds of barrel life wasted and shot to hell.

Hence the reason for the $150 hydraulic expander die.

1000 RWS 30-06 cases is about $450 new.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Hence the reason for the $150 hydraulic expander die.

1000 RWS 30-06 cases is about $450 new.

How does the die work to stretch the cases? .280 cases are .050 longer from base to shoulder than are .30-06 cases.

do it like shown above, the 55-K of gas pressure inside the case will form it just fine.

I do the exact same thing when forming Ackley cases.
you don't need to do that for Ackley cases but that's how I like to do it anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Hence the reason for the $150 hydraulic expander die.

1000 RWS 30-06 cases is about $450 new.

How does the die work to stretch the cases? .280 cases are .050 longer from base to shoulder than are .30-06 cases.

Interestingly at least with the 280AI the cases are usually within .01 of spec.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Ske1eter:
Rim diameter for the 6.8CM is different than the 308 Win. case as well.

I have been using standard 308 cases converted to 6.5 CM.

Work perfectly.

I used 22-250, then fireform, they come out a hair short OAL but work fine.

A hydraulic form die is basically a full length sizing die that has no threaded part for a decap/expand rod.
You place the case into the die. Fill with oil. Then use the punch that comes with the die and a hammer. A few hard whack's with the hammer and the oil pushes the case into a perfect fit with the die.
Then you resize as usual and shoot.
Just forming with a regular size die and shooting is quicker. And you wouldn't have to do all than a 100 or so at a time. Not really worth a hydraulic die.
If you were building some wild cat where you can't use regular dies to create case then a hydraulic die may be worth it.
Leo

Look at the SAMI specs. If the 280 AI chamber is cut currectly, it shoul have a 4 to 5 thou crush fit with a 280 Rem case.

Check the SAMI spec for 30'06 as well.

Remember that the 280 Rem has a shoulder that is forward of the 270 Win (and possibly the 30'06.

Easy to do and quick. Just do not skip the basics.