Big game hunting load for up to 300yd hunting. You work up and end up with a choice of half inch groups or 0.8" groups or so but approx 100fps faster.

Which do you choose?

I don't understand your question: I'm having trouble with what you mean when you say "nearly touching 3 shot groups." And I assume you're talking about ¾" at 300 yards, not 100 yards.

But all things being equal, I'd go any day of the week for accuracy over velocity, especially if the velocity difference were only 100 fps.

Edited.

IMO neither is a deal maker or a deal breaker.

0.8" at 100 y is 2.4" inches at 300 which is not quite head shooting accuracy (ignoring getting that steady in the field for the purposes of argument) but more than enough for consistent heart shooting.

0.5" at 100 yards is 1.5" which is not quite head shooting accuracy either but similarly much, much more accurate than one needs for chest shooting a muntjac at that distance.

100 fps gives an extra pbr range of maybe 10 yards or so, which is bugger all difference too...

In short, save the cases, load to the lower level and don't think about again.

For me that group difference is not enough to worry about.

I'd use the one with the bullet that I wanted to use. Accuracy is over-rated for hunting purposes.

Big game at 300 yards? Group difference .3 inches?

For your purposes, the difference in accuracy between the two groups is negligible, certainly nothing I could take advantage of in the field.

And the animal won't know the difference between the slower and the faster loads.

Once spent the summer and fall working up very accurate loads for my .270. Shot my deer at 12 paces.

I won't argue that either load is more than accurate enough for big game hunting. When I have high velocity with stellar accuracy then I have bragging rights but sometimes a choice has to be made, and I will always go with the more accurate load even if I have to sacrifice some speed; every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
I won't argue that either load is more than accurate enough for big game hunting. When I have high velocity with stellar accuracy then I have bragging rights but sometimes a choice has to be made, and I will always go with the more accurate load even if I have to sacrifice some speed; every time.

So will I; in the example above, the allowable wind error will be much less than than the larger group even if it is 100 fps. Of course, at 300 it is a moot point, but brass life will be longer if the extra speed is due to excess pressure.

It makes absolutely no difference; There are no MOA rilles in the hunting field and 100 fps is of no significance t 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It makes absolutely no difference; There are no MOA rilles in the hunting field and 100 fps is of no significance t 300 yards.

Hear, hear!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It makes absolutely no difference; There are no MOA rilles in the hunting field and 100 fps is of no significance t 300 yards.

Indeed. We're talking:

1) A big game load. Not a load for ground squirrels or prairie dogs.

2) A mere 100 fps difference between "slow" and "fast" loads. And the upper end of a distribution of a sample of the "slow" velocities compared to the lower end of a sample of the "fast" velocities will be closer than 100 fps.

3) A difference of 0.3 inches difference in accuracy. Worst case, that 0.3 inches was determined at 100 yards. That translates into a 0.9 inch difference at 300 yards. Best case: that 0.3 inches was measured at 300 yards!

In my book, when comparing loads accuracy trumps velocity. But if for all practical purposes the accuracy and the velocity of the two loads are virtually identical . . . "It makes absolutely no difference" (dpcd) which load you use.

Show me anyone who can tell the difference in .3MOA while shooting in field conditions.
Show me any big game that can tell the difference in 100fps.

I would take the load with 100 fps more velocity provided the 100 fps was NOT achieved by exceeding the SAAMI pressure standards for the cartridge. I'm interested in getting the best terminal performance possible out of my hunting loads. I wouldn't argue 100 fps is a cosmic difference but I'll take it. It might mean the difference between a bullet that completely exits a Moose or Brown Bear or one which stays inside the shoulder or chest cavity. I prefer bullets which exit. I'm not concerned about brass life. I can easily get 3 or 4 loads out of my magnum cartridges before I buy some new brass and that's good enough for me.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
Big game hunting load for up to 300yd hunting. You work up and end up with a choice of half inch groups or 0.8" groups or so but approx 100fps faster.

Which do you choose?

How many groups of each load did you shoot?

Choose the bullet with the best bullet integrity for penetration at any angle,
and with the highest BC, for wind resistance.

If it is the same bullet, then it doesn't really matter.

Given the same bullet, I always go for the accuracy. Most of the time, I test loads until I find the most accurate and quit. I am unconcerned about 100 or even 200fps. I can adjust the scope as necessary at testing or sight-in. I realize it is just a confidence thing since dpcd is correct. I can sight my 6.5x55 in for 2600fps at 300 yards just the same as I can my 264WM at 3100fps.

As you can see, there are people in both camps.

I strive for the best accuracy at the highest velocity, most of the time a max load is your best accuracy in hunting rifles. But your scenario is over the top, it just makes no difference for hunting..

Im also of the opinion that if one can kill deer at 300 yards consistently then he should realize his skill level is probably 400 yards..

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
Big game hunting load for up to 300yd hunting. You work up and end up with a choice of half inch groups or 0.8" groups or so but approx 100fps faster.

Which do you choose?

How many groups of each load did you shoot?

+
Aaahh, now we're asking the right question. You can get 100fps difference within a series of shots. How many shots was the op calling a group? Was .8 the average of several groups or was it the pick of the litter?
IMO, the difference in group size and velocity makes absolutely no difference.

I would actually load for 12 more rounds and alter each loads by .2 grains up and down and see which load is the least sensitive to minor variations in powder charges.

I had a friend (passed now) whose overall theory was a bullet of the heaviest weight that would achieve the closest to 3000 FPS MV.would be the optimum calibre.Craig did have a point. Along the same subject;we know that the more velocity we aquire,the less the gravity becomes involved regardless of bullet weight.

quote:

overall theory was a bullet of the heaviest weight that would achieve the closest to 3000 FPS MV.would be the optimum calibre

That's a worthy theory but still leaves a wide amount of implementation. At the risk of getting off topic a bit, we might conduct a quick survey or thought experiment.

For example, the 300 Weatherby does a 200 grain bullet at 3000fps. A person could call it an ultimate caliber. I've used it in Africa, but I prefer heavier bullets and caliber.

Going up the scale, the 340 Weatherby and 33 Nosler might push a 225grain bullet to 3000, certainly the 338 RUM. And the Lapua gets close to 3000fps with 250 grains.

Up at .375" a person can shoot a 300 grain at 3000fps in a 378 Weatherby. The .416 Rigby can push a 300 grain bullet to 3000fps , too. But it's sectional density is starting to drop, so I wouldn't call it optimum. I would prefer something heavier for a buffalo, say 330-350 grains all copper, to give better reliability for shots from more angles.

At this level of muzzle energy and momentum, recoil becomes something that takes some learning and practice in order to use the rifle as a tool just like an O'Connor 270.

So the little thought experiment needs to add a couple of restraining parameters.
#1 -
The sectional density needs to be at least .300 if a lead core bullet, and .275 if an all-copper bullet.
#2 -
The recoil level needs to be one that can be used day-in and day-out. I might suggest about 60 ft# as a max level, and many might prefer something down around 40ft# to 50ft#.

Well, 40-50ft# would bring us back to a 225 grain .338" at 3000fps.
That is an awesome package and would do it all, though not recommended for buffalo (and elephant, hippo).

As an old 270 hunter I will confess that I like 3000-3100 fps. It is a great hunting velocity.

But in Africa, I'm willing to trade some velocity for weight and sectional density. My personal compromise has been a .416" 350grain monometal at 2825fps. That is flat enough for anything in Africa. I've shot it from some funny positions, but not yet from prone. (Prone works for spur wing geese from across a wide, shallow river, with a 270.)

If one likes that 2825 fps trajectory and sectional density, then one can also drop down to a 338WinMag, firing 225 grainers at 2825fps. More pleasing recoil.

So with a need for high sectional density and tolerable recoil, I think that I would redo the "formula" as "the ultimate caliber is the "heaviest bullet over .275 SD, that can do 2800fps". And people can choose 28, 30, 33, 37, or 41 caliber according to their recoil tolerance or shooting frequency. Some of these heavy hitters would not need to be shot too often during a year, <100, so now there is room for a second rifle with pleasant recoil.
ETc.
Etc.
Same old questions in new wrapping.

quote:

I won't argue that either load is more than accurate enough for big game hunting. When I have high velocity with stellar accuracy then I have bragging rights but sometimes a choice has to be made, and I will always go with the more accurate load even if I have to sacrifice some speed; every time.

Plus One on that. I always go with the load the rifle likes the best.

Your shooting at a basketball sized target kill area !! Group size / velocity don't matter much, just hit it and everything will be fine !!

I pick a hunting bullet by construction.
I could care less how well those 308 caliber A-max's shoot, or how the match bullets keep things nice and tight.
they sucke when placed in an Elk's shoulder.

and he is just gonna run down hill further and further from where I have to carry his parts to get him home.

As long as the speed is enough for your bullet to perform at the maximum range you may shoot them my preference would be the more accurate. Why ? Well if you shooot at maximum range and the field conditions challenge your aim or result in a shot 5hat is somewhat off, long range shots will be effected greater than short range range shots. This could possibly mean hitting a vital spot or just missing a vital shot. Such event could be the start of a senario where a dangerous follow up may have been avoided. Just my two cents.

I agree that accurate is paramount. As I have told my kids + the folks that work for me the same message;learn to do it right first.then learn to do it fast. NEVER in the opposite order.We have reached an age that does not tolerate hearing about a snap shot that was not sure.Bullet construction is also a factor + heaven knows we have a plethora available today.Case in point;several years ago ,opening came upon me + I was not ready. I had a mini MK X in 223 + NO loaded ammo. So I just grabbed a box of 223 FMJ. Geneva be damned,hit me with a H.P.,tore that deer all to hell.

Head shots on elk at 300 yards is a practice in catastropy, and/or elk with broken jaws or misses..Its a ridiculas scenario..

The only velocity necessary is enough to do the job needed.

The only accuracy needed is enough to place the bullet where intended.

Any more is not needed any less well not do what is needed.

Those amounts very all over the place.

That is way we have all kinds of different calibers, firearms and projectiles.

Then we have the factor that us gun guys just like to discuss such things.

Maybe that is the most important factor and it is just fun to do so.

On paper these velocity and accuracy differences may sound huge, but in actual hunting the animal wont know the difference. Hit em in the right spot and the fun ended and work begins. But many folks wont buy that. Thus we have .300 magnums when the 30-06 was getting er done and same same with 25-06 when the .257 Roberts had been working fine.

P-Dog and Carpetman:




Yes, it's fun to discuss and muse. We slowly learn things, too.
Hmmm, the -06 and the Bob, pretty formidable duo.

A good balance between velocity and accuracy is important to me and is usually the reason why I might select one bullet over another when reloading for a particular caliber. If I have to reduce the velocity on a slower caliber to achieve accuracy, I probably wouldn't select a Barnes TSX or TTSX. At the same time, I probably wouldn't use a fragile, soft point bullet like a Sierra GameKing for elk hunting with my 300 Win Mag, even if it were more accurate. But, the Sierra GameKing is a favorite for deer in a couple of my rifles.

To me, both are important. Achieving a balance between velocity, accuracy and performance on game is what makes hunting (and hand loading) fun and challenging.

I hope this response was not off-point.

I seldom chrony a load until after I've finished the accuracy part of it. I'm usually working at 80-90+% of book max and when I get my best load, I'll chrony it to see how it matches up with what the book(s) say it should. If it's close, I call it happy but if I seem to have a "slow" barrel, I may fudge up a ways, watching my pressure signs. But still, accuracy is my first goal.

If you shoot a .5" group today it does not mean you'll do it tomorrow and certainly not from a field position! I've got a group from my 25-06 hanging on the wall over my reload bench. Only .111" group I ever shot! I know that's hard to believe but that's it.

quote:

If you shoot a .5" group today it does not mean you'll do it tomorrow and certainly not from a field position!

and that is why I focus on consistency, I use the OCW method to find the load that can vary +/- by .3 grains and still hold an inch. That equates to a load that when consistently put together at varying tempatures.

quote:

If you shoot a .5" group today it does not mean you'll do it tomorrow and certainly not from a field position!

What field position.

Standing no, off a tree no, sitting most likely not, Sitting with a good rest very accurate.

Sitting in a blind with a good rest very accurate.

Prone with a good rest very accurate.

Prone off a bi-pod I have done a half inch or better many times.

I have killed a number of deer out there off a bi-pod and tons of varmints.

Can not hardly think of a better field position then prone off a bi-pod.