Well then, if the perceived difference between neck designs makes little difference and the whole purpose of both was only to blow out the cases in an attempt for more powder capacity, higher velocity, flatter trajectories, and greater accuracy's. the results have got to be higher pressures... so it still comes down to who had the better idea if every other aspects of the rifle were left the same or in the case of Weatherby with the modification with the 6 and 9 lug bolt design and tighter tolerances within.

Then again what about an Ackley cartridge in a Mk V Weatherby rifle?

Phil

Weatherby basically didn't do a hell of a lot but blow the shoulder out on the 300 H&H and neck it up and down, later shortened it..and made a ton of money with a good idea..Roy took a big case and made it bigger and got the idea from Ackley..

Ackley on the other hand provided a movement that almost became a religious experience for some, and his endeavors added to and created a group of enthusiastic "wildcatters", who to this day still exhist, only by a hair but they hang in there year after year..

I think PO Ackley was the God father of wildcatting, and gave more to the hunter, shooter than any other individual..He was the real deal..

Just opinion, nothing more or less..

Godfather, not hardly... but to compare the two men, other than a couple years difference in age both were of the same era, both working gunsmiths, and both were wildcatters. Different approach to their wants and needs. Weatherby by that means would have to be considered the Godfather of high velocity cartridges and hydrostatic shock in ammunition for hunting rifles... but both were basically going at it at the same time.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Roy took a big case and made it bigger and got the idea from Ackley..

Not so. The idea of fire forming in a bigger chamber goes way back in time. As I previously said, in Australia (and would also have to be the case in America) it was done by any gunsmith who could make a reamer and for his own customer base.

Sometimes in Australia it was done because of powder availability or I should say lack of powder availability. Two common ones were the 218 Bee and 270 Winchester. In both cases available powder was a tad slow for 50 grainers in the 218 and 100 grainers in the 270.

Fire forming to increase case capacity was as plain as the nose on your face as soon as someone measured the case capacity of a new case and then the capacity after firing it.

Roy Weatherby simply had a different vision to P O Ackley (and a heap of others) and obviously had what it took to go all the way with factory brass and ammo and of course finally the Mark V.

It was the same with all sorts of different products. Lots of computer operating systems were around but Bill Gates got his MS DOS to become the standard and then to Windows and I think MS DOS was running Windows up to Windows 98.

Parker -- hands down!

He changed our views on many things, and improved cartridge design ..

he didn't just slap a belt on a 416 rigby or "ackley improve the 300 hh" with a round shoulder ....

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


he didn't just slap a belt on a 416 rigby or "ackley improve the 300 hh" with a round shoulder ....

Do you think Ackley could have had Norma to make brass and ammo for a 416 Rigby Improved as a belted case?

There was a bit more to it than "just slap a belt on a 416 Rigby"

Could he have got Norma to make brass and ammo for his 300 AI?

Mike,
I can get norma to make a 416 rigby improved case .. all it takes is money.

In the 50s, there was a heck of a lot more innovation on a small scale ...

but i've had second tier brass makers run a custom line of brass for me .. a couple times, for not much real money -- and I am not talking qualcart

The old boy just had to pony up some cash and specs, and await delivery.

I expect there are more 300 WSM rifles sold than ALL weatherby factory rifles ever made .. what's a WSM? well, according to court documents and HEM, the WSM is actually a 450 ackley (348 win) with the rim turned rimless ...

again, Parker was the innovator, Weatherby was a marketing guy ..

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

again, Parker was the innovator, Weatherby was a marketing guy ..

I don't agree with that. As I said earlier there were plenty of gunsmiths who make a reamer and have the Improved cartridge for their customer base.

My guess is it was probably more prevalent in Australia because of greater need. For example in the 1960s I had 25/308 Norma and 270/308 Morma. Reason being 308 Norma brass was common in Australia whereas not so the 300 Winchester or 270 Wby.

The testing of actions and pressures goes way back. A well known Sydney gunsmith, died back in 1996, his father was also a gunsmith and they also made cut rifled barrels. I have seen (umpteen years ago ) actions that Don Black's father had given the overload treatment to and that would have been in the 1930s. As a side note, the SMLE as a rear locker is not good for higher pressure loads but blowing one up is a different deal.

Ackley was only different to these blokes in he got better known and had his books. Weatherby went another stage further.

In America you also had the PMVF stuff and the Saturn ICL ones and probably 1000s no one ever heard of except their own customer base.

On the WSMs, yes I was a aware they are the head size of 348 converted to rimless. I have often wondered if that was a manufacturing thing since Winchester could already do 348 brass.

Get a life, read Ackleys books, The blownout shoulders on magnum cases was done before wby, Roy changed the shoulder and ran a excellent add campaign.

Even today its hard to find a wildcat that isn't in Ackleys books, so many "designers" just changed the shoulder angle or the case in some manor or whatever and renamed it...

I knew both men, liked them both, but Ackley was the gunsmith, the inventor, and was dedicated to the improvement of calibers and all existing guns and shared that info with all of us..Roy sold guns, he was a business man..Ackley was honest in his endevors and states without question which ones produced and which one did not..