This is my XD 40 after firing the 3rd round of reloads. They are 185gr under 5gr of TiteGroup. I have fired several before without incident. I am always careful to look into case after powder charge with a flashlight to make sure I haven't double dipped. Any ideas...1: what may have happened...2: how to get this brass out of barrel. I am not able to field strip, it is stuck.

You got about 100k psi of pressure; that is what happened. You could try to remove the melted case with a bore brush, but that probably won't work; you need to remove the barrel first. And check everything out since you got a lot of gas into the action when this happened. 5 grains? Not likely; unless it fired unlocked. Might be best to send it to the factory for repair and inspection. At least to a gunsmith.

Hodgedon's manual lists 4.7 grs of Titegroup under 180 gr bullet as max. A 185gr bullet would certainly create an overload situation using 5 grs of Titegroup.

A competent gun smith would be able to removed the case, and check the gun for damage.

Mike, I also have that info in Hodgedon's manual. I cannot understand how I would have done the 5grs. (shame on me). That is what I have in my notes with these loads. I will be pulling the bullets on the rest of the ammo and weigh the powder. I am very careful during my reloading. I check the powder levels in the cases using a flashlight to make sure I don't double charge. I fired several rounds at different times before this happened. In the future, I certainly will be more careful.

Maybe the bullet got bumped back into the case when it loaded?

QL says that you were in the 50,000-55000 range with that load. Seems a low pressure for that damage. However shove the bullet back in the case and the pressure can spike big time.

This is very strange, as I would not expect a 6% over charge to cause this sort of damage.

I still suspect there is another reason for it.

I know many such accidents do happen, which have no reasonable explanation at all.

A couple of years ago, we thought we will try to see what happens when one overloads a rifle.

We picked three rifles.

A BSA in 243 Winchester
A BRNO CZ550 in 308 Winchester
An Enfield in 303 British.

All the above cases have roughly the same case capacity.

We loaded all of them with Hodgdon Bullseye - about 35 grains if I remember rightly.

The BSA got blown to pieces - serious damage would have happened to the shooter.

The BRNO cracked the stock slightly, but we were able to open the bolt with a hammer - no damage would have happened to the shooter.

The Enfield held together too - no external damage at all, and no damage would have occurred to the shooter.

We hammered the bolt open, and got part of the case in the bolt, the rest of it stayed in the barrel.

Now I am wondering if I did not taper crimp enough. Never thought of a bullet setback. Hmm!

My experience has always been that pressure will increase when a bullet is seated closer to the lands, not farther away. Increased jump to the lands tends to reduce initial pressure. I guess the theory of deep seating causing pressure spikes has to do with the idea that case capacity is reduced. However, as soon as the primer ignites the bullet will easily move into the lands, giving back all the case capacity that was lost.

Weatherby put freebore in his rifles when he developed his chambering as a way to slow down the available powders back then and reduce pressure. I even remember reading an article in some hunting rag about how they found pressure and velocity increased as they moved the bullets closer to the lands, which surprised them, and surprised me that they were surprised.

Then again, I deal almost exclusively with rifles. Does a fast burning pistol powder really have a spike when seated deep? Does perhaps the starting and stopping of the bullet make a fast burning powder go nuts?

Your massively excessive pressure did not come from too much bullet seating depth; I have done a lot of that without any bad results. Looks like your issue was with way too much/wrong type powder. Try that with a revolver and really bad things will happen. I have seen that too. I have a cylinder blown open around here somewhere.

quote:

Then again, I deal almost exclusively with rifles. Does a fast burning pistol powder really have a spike when seated deep? Does perhaps the starting and stopping of the bullet make a fast burning powder go nuts?

A pistol bullet and powder act in reverse to what you see in a rifle. In a rifle a long jump will normally lower your pressure

In his 40 load to saami max his load of 5gs only uses 83% of the usable case volume and calculates 50,964. Almost 20,000 too high. Move the bullet back .05 all of a sudden you are using 104% of capacity and pressure is 75,226 (QL) Take a pistol you can seat the bullet a touch deeper reduce your charge and get the same velocity.

As always if you change something like seating depth work back up to your max charge. If you are low enough in pressure you probably won't see anything. If you are at max doesn't take much.

Look at the pressure curves on a rifle and pistol. A pistol pressure peaks with almost no bullet movement. In a rifle with slow magnum powders the peak is after 2-3 inches of movement.

I "think" that even with a rifle you get a pressure rise by seating deeper. However that is more than offset by a reduction in the bullet starting pressure. Hopefully someone smarter than me will have an opinion.

I concur, Ramrod. In all my reloading manuals, they warn that reloading of pistol cartridges require additional cautions. Generally speaking, we are using faster burn rate powders, in a smaller container (cartridge), and thus less room for error. Sticking to max OAL for the bullet, and carefully working up to max loads is just that much more critical with pistol cartridges.

hdog, I am really glad you weren't injured, and lived to learn from it!!

Yes Mike, I consider myself blessed that there was no damage or injury to anything or anybody except the pistol. The pistol is now in the hands of a competent gunsmith. I will be pulling the remainder of the bullets and weighing the powders to confirm my error.
Thanks all for your comments and great information.

Theoretically, you all are right; however, from my actual experience with bullets pushed back into the brass cases, nothing as drastic as the above meltdown, ever happened to me. I still think he had a massive overcharge.

quote:

however, from my actual experience with bullets pushed back into the brass cases, nothing as drastic as the above meltdown, ever happened to me. I still think he had a massive overcharge.

I haven't had anything like that either. I have had a couple 38 super that I had seated a MAX load deeper than previous workup. There was NO DOUBT with the first firing that something wasn't right. Public range ground covered in brass I didn't find the case but didn't fire the rest either. Can't remember how much deeper it was.

Wrong powder, double charge or out of battery makes the most sense.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

Look at the pressure curves on a rifle and pistol. A pistol pressure peaks with almost no bullet movement. In a rifle with slow magnum powders the peak is after 2-3 inches of movement.

That is the answer, and is what I was suspecting. Makes perfect sense...............

hdog, do you weigh each powder charge, or use a powder measure to charge the cases?

Mike,
I use a RCBS Chargemaster combo. I will charge maybe 50 units and then take my surefire flashlight and inpect each to verify that the depth of powder by eye is the same. I realize that a few tenths of a grain may not be determined by eye, but any major error should be detectable. I may get out my old Redding balance scale and double check the chargemaster.

So "hdog" balls on the table, what did you in fact load?
What bullet
What COL

5gr Titegroup under a Hornady 180grXTP (max COL) will give @41000psi but set that bullet back 1/8" and the pressure is more like 122000psi.
Sooo??????

Dane and all,
I ordered a collet type bullet puller which should get here by mid week. I have tried my impact style remover, but I am not convinced I can get every tenth of a grain of powder out of it due to static. I will pull the remainder and reweigh the powder in each case. I will also measure overall length before pulling.

Dane,
It was suggested, and may be, that this bullet was set back (could it be from recoil?) a bit. I measure every 4th or 5th OAL while setting the bullet. I also do the taper crimp as a seperate operation. The bullet is Speer 180gr. FMJ.

quote:

Originally posted by hdog:


Dane,
It was suggested, and may be, that this bullet was set back (could it be from recoil?) a bit. I measure every 4th or 5th OAL while setting the bullet. I also do the taper crimp as a seperate operation. The bullet is Speer 180gr. FMJ.

Recoil can set bullets back so can repeated loading into the chamber.

I wonder if it wasn't a partial out of battery firing. I seen that happen with a Glock I use a lee bulge buster die on all my 40 reloads and check to make sure they chamber properly.

I also load 40s on the light end of loadings. I have reloaded many 10s of thousands of 45 and 9mm with out trouble the 40 seem to take more care.

It well be interisting what you find out

I agree; as I said way above, it looks like possibly it fired whilst un-locked. Not from deeply seated bullets.

My guess is fired without complete lock up also.

I have used the Lee Bulge Buster on these cases. However, I'm sure that does not completely eliminate the misfeed possibility. The pistol is at a local gunsmith now. Maybe he will be able to analyze and determine what really happened. I am still going to remove the bullets from the rest of the ammo and reweigh the powder charges.

Have him check the disconnector to see if the striker will fall when the barrel is out of battery.

OK, the verdict is in on the reloads. I pulled the 25 remaining bullets. 4 were 4.5gr of TiteGroup, 3 were 5.0gr, 1 was 5.1gr, 1 was 4.6, 2 were 4.7gr, 9 were 4.8gr, and 5 were 4.9gr.

I used an RCBS ChargeMaster. I can't understand the variations, as I calibrate everytime I start my session, and wait for stabilization after each weigh. I could understand a +/- 0.1gr or maybe even .2gr, but a range of .5 to .6. Something is wrong here. I suppose I will need to weigh each brass with the charge before seating the bullet.

Has anyone else had a problem with the Chargemaster?

quote:

Titegroup

Here is double charge (9.6 gr) of titegroup - just another picture:
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/4/538423-2.html

quote:

Originally posted by vashper:

quote:

Titegroup

Here is double charge (9.6 gr) of titegroup - just another picture:
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/4/538423-2.html

Seems like a 9.6 gr in a 40 S&W case would surely stand out. This is why I look inside of the charged cases with a flashlight. I hope the shooter was not hurt.

And there is some damage at weapons? Very similar to the abnormal combustion of gunpowder, which turned into a detonation. I think you need to contact the manufacturer of gunpowder. There are no grounds for the claims, but maybe they can tell what's the matter?

I've heard of cases where companies had withdrawn the cartridges because of problems with gunpowder. We had a loud story when one serie cartridges caused the destruction of several rifles. It turned out that some new gunpowder (Belgian) was sensitive to a small excess weight and, moreover, to the low temperature.
This is hardly your case, but the reason was not really the double charge, where the result looks different.

Can you provide a photo of a fired,non-failed cartridge?

Rapid,
I'm afraid if I have any, they are mixed with other brass from different loads. I was so upset at the time that I failed to pick up anymore brass. I sure wish I had been calmer with a presence of mind to pick up the brass.

Thank you for this posting - it let everyone of us re-think every time we reload - make double sure!

I try hard to load with powders that leave no room for a double charge...tj3006

Vashper,
There were no double charges in these cartridges. I may have "over" charged them. That is what I think caused the problem. The pistol was taken to a gunsmith. He had to send it to Sprinfield because there was a part, according to him, that they do not sell. Must be a liability issue.

Its obvious that VERY high pressure was involved, high pressure could be caused by an overload, an obstructed barrel or by bullet setback. Bullet setback is very real possibility with the .40. It is also possible that the gun fired when it was out of battery.

Below is some pressure data and a quote from an article by Charles Petty that was in American Handgunner.

However, because of the deep-seated 180gr bullets, there is very little extra case volume left after powder and bullet are added to the case. Even the smallest variation in bullet seating or powder volume drastically affects the volume of space inside the case where the chemical reaction occurs which builds the pressure which sends the bullet down the barrel. These minor variations, therefore, make it very easy to get an overpressure situation with a 180gr bullet. The table below shows how dramatically peak pressures increase when the bullet is seated too deeply.

Overall Length
Pressure
1.140" 26,195 psi
1.130" 27,521 psi
1.120" 29,079 psi
1.115" 29,924 psi
1.100" 32,900 psi
1.075" 39,641 psi
1.050" 50,954 psi
1.040" 57,926 psi
1.030" 66,890 psi
1.020" 80,345 psi
1.010" 101,286 psi
1.000" 138,744 psi

Standard OAL for the .40S&W is 1.120" ... table data from "Handloading" by Charles E. Petty, American Handgunner Jan/Feb 1998, p41.

quote:

Originally posted by hdog:
OK, the verdict is in on the reloads. I pulled the 25 remaining bullets. 4 were 4.5gr of TiteGroup, 3 were 5.0gr, 1 was 5.1gr, 1 was 4.6, 2 were 4.7gr, 9 were 4.8gr, and 5 were 4.9gr.

I used an RCBS ChargeMaster. I can't understand the variations, as I calibrate everytime I start my session, and wait for stabilization after each weigh. I could understand a +/- 0.1gr or maybe even .2gr, but a range of .5 to .6. Something is wrong here. I suppose I will need to weigh each brass with the charge before seating the bullet.

Has anyone else had a problem with the Chargemaster?

Right after I got my Chargemaster, I tested it and found variations of almost 0.5 grains with rifle loads of powder.

I did a little reading up about it on the internet and many people mentioned that if you get a lot of variations in your house electrical voltage that it would affect the Chargemaster.

I hooked up a voltage meter with a logger to measure my electrical voltage. It varied from 112 V AC - 123 VAC and was never steady for more than 5 seconds.

I took and old computer's UPS (battery back up) that I had in the house and used it between the Chargemaster and the wall outlet and now I have a consistent voltage input.

It's rare that I ever see more than .1-.2 grains of difference now on loads of 40 - 80 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by hdog:
OK, the verdict is in on the reloads. I pulled the 25 remaining bullets. 4 were 4.5gr of TiteGroup, 3 were 5.0gr, 1 was 5.1gr, 1 was 4.6, 2 were 4.7gr, 9 were 4.8gr, and 5 were 4.9gr.

I used an RCBS ChargeMaster. I can't understand the variations, as I calibrate everytime I start my session, and wait for stabilization after each weigh. I could understand a +/- 0.1gr or maybe even .2gr, but a range of .5 to .6. Something is wrong here. I suppose I will need to weigh each brass with the charge before seating the bullet.

Has anyone else had a problem with the Chargemaster?

Right after I got my Chargemaster, I tested it and found variations of almost 0.5 grains with rifle loads of powder.

I did a little reading up about it on the internet and many people mentioned that if you get a lot of variations in your house electrical voltage that it would affect the Chargemaster.

I hooked up a voltage meter with a logger to measure my electrical voltage. It varied from 112 V AC - 123 VAC and was never steady for more than 5 seconds.

I took and old computer's UPS (battery back up) that I had in the house and used it between the Chargemaster and the wall outlet and now I have a consistent voltage input.

It's rare that I ever see more than .1-.2 grains of difference now on loads of 40 - 80 grains.

Holy sh*t!

Thanks for that. Never would have thought of it.

checking a load with a flashlight isn't a bad idea but it does not preclude a double charge as you may have just missed that one and found later!! The damage looks like a lot more went off than a 5 gr. load..a bullet pushed back may raise the pressure but I doubt seriously it would do that kind of damage,more likely it would blow a primer and open up the primer hole considerably but not blow the case in half and melt the edges as I see the picture, that's one hell of a lot of pressure..No problem getting the case out, a wire brush or heat will get it out but I would send it to the factory and be sure other damage wasn't done.

To All,
Thank you very much for you inputs and advice. I readily admit that whatever happened is my fault. Two things that have been mentioned several times are double charge and set back. It seems that a double charge (9 grains) of TiteGroup would definately stand out amongst 49 other 4.7 grain charges. The set back is a strong possibility as my crimp may be minimal. There are many suggestions in this thread that I will incorporate. As of now, the pistol is at the factory (or it may be back at my gunsmith). Thank you again.

A Kimber SOLO came into the shop recently with a live round jammed in the chamber and unable to eject. Customer said he fired it several times until he got the stoppage. I removed the round by forcing the slide back. This resulted in de-bulleting the case and spilling powder. The bullet was firmly lodged in the rifling and had to be removed with a rod. Turns out the chamber was not finish reamed and the gun was firing out of battery the whole time. Moral is that it is possible you could have a pistol with a short chamber.