THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM FORUMS


Moderators: Mark
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Protruding primers
 Login/Join
 
new member
posted
Hi

I'm hoping to pick the collective brain of the forum members!

I recently started reloading for a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 - 9.5 x 57 MS

I slowly started with a load of 41 gr of IMR 3031 that gave me about 1750fps and I increased the load by 1 gr of powder up to 44 gr which gave a velocity of 1945 fps
I use standard rifle primers and a 270gr RNSN .375" Woodleigh bullet
Bear in mind the gun in question is the rifle version with 24 " barrel and not the carbine

Every cartridge that came out of the gun had protruding primers with rounded edges and a ring on the neck and just below the shoulder of the cartridge

No signs of excessive pressure were noted ie Heavy recoil or a stiff bolt

So the question is - Is this a headspace problem or is this insufficient velocity not reseating the primer
The primers stand about 0.0022" proud



 
Posts: 4 | Registered: 07 January 2015Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of eagle27
posted Hide Post
You don't mention if you are using new brass. If you have some fired brass, back off your sizing die a turn or so and then keep adjusting and sizing until you can feel a slight drag when closing the bolt on a resized case. This will take out any headspace issue, then load and try your loads. Even with light loads of powder shooting cast bullets I don't get protruding primers so your issue is very likely headspace.

Shallow shouldered cases can cause headspace issues with some cartridges e.g. 400 Whelen. 10,75x68, etc., if sizing is not carefully done.
 
Posts: 3826 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
You can try to make a doubble shoulder with a .40cal expander to see if it can hold the cartridge back. The marks on the case may show your chamber are out of specification a chamber cast will show how big it is.
 
Posts: 3611 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 02 May 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
Yes, that is due to excessive headspace, not pressure. Do what they said above to fit the brass to the chamber, and do not size it back when you reload.
Another way is to use a starting load and seat the bullet jammed into the rifling; that will keep the brass rearward and make the shoulder move forward.
Specifications do not matter; just make the brass fit the chamber. Unless you are going to set the barrel back so the chamber fits the brass. No.
 
Posts: 17019 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Maybe compare base to shoulder length on fired vs new unfired brass. The ring behind the shoulder in the fired case may be where the original shoulder was.
Could be the barrel was rechambered for a longer case. The ring just behind the case mouth may be due to this also.


A good job is sometimes just a series of expertly fixed fark-ups.
Let's see.... is it 20 years experience or is it 1 years experience 20 times?
And I will have you know that I am not an old fart. I am a curmudgeon. A curmudgeon is an old fart with an extensive vocabulary and a really bad attitude.
 
Posts: 324 | Location: Too far north and 50 years too late | Registered: 02 February 2015Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
What is happening is that the brass case is holding all the pressure, (the brass alone can hold a lot more than most people think; up to about 40 K psi; read Ackley's tests), and the primer backs out to touch the bolt face.
Due to the chamber being longer than the brass, or vice versa.
The fix is outlined above. A couple of methods, just like forming brass for a wildcat. Which you effectively have.
 
Posts: 17019 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
What DPCD said re cause and solution.

I'd toss those once-fired brass cases. That's alot of excess headspace, and the cases likely lost wall thickness from near the head. You may be able to feel this with a dental pick or wire. Start with fresh brass fire-forming using either technique outlined by DPCD.
 
Posts: 670 | Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME | Registered: 25 May 2002Reply With Quote
new member
posted Hide Post
Hi Guys

Thanks for the great input and sage advice

What would be better going forward ?

Expanding the neck to .40 Calibre and forming a false shoulder to headspace on or just jamming a bullet into the lands?

Kind regards
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: 07 January 2015Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
I would not toss any cases; they are not stretched much if at all; if they were the primers would not be protruding. Even if they are, it won't hurt anything.
The less work method is the jam the bullet into the rifling method and is the one I use when forming brass. Has to be tight; the firing pin blow is very powerful too.
 
Posts: 17019 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frikkie Badenhorst:
The primers stand about 0.0022" proud


Pics suggest alot more stretch than 0.0022". A feeler would help decide on the cases.
 
Posts: 670 | Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME | Registered: 25 May 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of bartsche
posted Hide Post
old A good buddy of mine had the two ring problem when a GS simply re chambered a .308 to 30-06 . Frowner roger homer


Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..
 
Posts: 10226 | Location: Temple City CA | Registered: 29 April 2003Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
I think the OP meant twenty two thousandths instead of two.
Anyway, that does not translate into case stretch. Not sure how anyone can deduce that from backed out primers. Even if they are stretched any, as long as they are stabilized at the right length, no worries.
The OP can check them though..
 
Posts: 17019 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Below is from the Sierra manual, read the last paragraph.



Below 7mm Mauser cases fired in a milsurp rifle with excessive headspace and low pressure. If the bullets had been jammed into the rifling with a warmer load these cases would have formed to the chamber and the primers would be flush with the base of the case.

These primers if removed would look like the base of a rivet or a mushroom. Meaning the exposed part of the primer expanded and bulged outward.

 
Posts: 217 | Registered: 29 July 2009Reply With Quote
Moderator
Picture of jeffeosso
posted Hide Post
the ring on the shoulder bugs me .. oh, and that the primers are backed WAY out ... use a sharpie or black the case, and run through your resizing die until you feel "real" pressure .. it looks like the WHOLE case is sliding forward "a lot" .. looks like 2mm from here, but that a sWAg ..

something about this really bugs me more than 'grown' headspace .. like your dies are off .. a bunch ...


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38365 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of eagle27
posted Hide Post
Low pressure loads may highlight the problem but increasing the pressure will not fix the problem. The problem is excessive headspace. If the OP mean't 0.022" primer protrusion that is way too much headspace. Increasing the pressure of the loads will just lead to incipient case head separation.
Get rid of the excessive headspace by only partially sizing the case to reduce the 'head clearance' to a minimum. I refer to this as headspace but I usually get told off for doing so on this forum. Technically the head clearance is not the same as headspace but they both manifest themselves as being the unwanted excessive gap between the bolt face and case head which leads to protruding primers with light loads, very flattened primers with normal pressure loads, incipient case head separations and rooted cases Smiler
 
Posts: 3826 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
If the protrusion was misstated by a decimal placement typo, case stretch may have been nil.

But I would not just guess about this. Easy enough to check.

I do not reload brass having incipient separations as revealed by a probe or obvious external appearance. Realize you can mostly eliminate further stretch by neck or partial sizing. I've done it. My experience may be singular, but some pieces eventually develop a partial or complete head separation. Usually no big deal (like head failure) but it would stink to need a broken case extractor on a hunt. I don't reload brass with incipient neck splits, either.
 
Posts: 670 | Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME | Registered: 25 May 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frikkie Badenhorst:
Hi Guys

Thanks for the great input and sage advice

What would be better going forward ?

Expanding the neck to .40 Calibre and forming a false shoulder to headspace on or just jamming a bullet into the lands?

Kind regards
I prefer the false shoulder for more positive headspacing. The blow of the firing pin can possibly push the bullet back into the case a bit prior to the pressure from ignition building sufficiently, thus re-creating the headspace problem.

However, I'm assuming that you are making your 9.5x57 (or is it a 9.3?) cases from some other case like a .30-06 or 8x57. If using a .30-06 case as the parent you can simply back your FL die off of the shellholder the appropriate amount to place the "new" shoulder in the right place for your chamber.
 
Posts: 13213 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I'd neck size and move on.

low pressure and poorly fit cases is what we are seeing here.
I see the same thing [minus the rings] on one of my wild cat rounds on the first low pressure firing that starts moving brass to fill the chamber before hitting it with a full pressure load to set the final shape.
 
Posts: 4960 | Location: soda springs,id | Registered: 02 April 2008Reply With Quote
new member
posted Hide Post
Hi there


Thanks again for all the valuable input from all the contributors


Sorry for the mix up in the measurements

It is indeed 0.022 " protrusion of the Primer

The calibre is 9.5x57 Mannlicher Schoenauer

The brass is brand new Quali-Cartridge brass

I did not sized the brass so it is not the sizing die
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: 07 January 2015Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Hi Frikkie,

I answer your question in another forum. I am reading this right now.
I am with Stonecreek!
At your question about creating a false shoulder vs. jamming a bullet on the lands, I prefer the first option any time!!! Because the possibility mentioned by SC. And because doing this you can load that case with the false shoulder as a normal one! Not need to use a bullet, primer and powder only to form the case.
I have made that many times and I don't know a better way....

Good luck!
 
Posts: 377 | Registered: 17 March 2006Reply With Quote
new member
posted Hide Post
Any suggestions in regards to expander stem size?

I see the next biggest calibre offered by Sinclair in their expander mandrels are
.408" calibre
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: 07 January 2015Reply With Quote
Moderator
Picture of Bakes
posted Hide Post
I was just going to post the same question. I'm having the same problem with my 8x57 mauser Verguerio. Would excessive head space also cause accuracy issues?


------------------------------
A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!"
 
Posts: 7963 | Location: Bloody Queensland where every thing is 20 years behind the rest of Australia! | Registered: 25 January 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of eagle27
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bakes:
I was just going to post the same question. I'm having the same problem with my 8x57 mauser Verguerio. Would excessive head space also cause accuracy issues?


Not necessarily but allowing a case to fire-form to the chamber and then only neck sizing or partial F/L sizing to maintain that snug fit in the chamber can help accuracy, An undersized case rattling around in a chamber doesn't help with bullet alignment to the bore.
It all comes down to how much leade is in the bore, if minimal, case alignment is not so critical but either way snug fitting cases in a chamber will give the longest life when reloading.
 
Posts: 3826 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
Moderator
Picture of Bakes
posted Hide Post
Thanks mate.


------------------------------
A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!"
 
Posts: 7963 | Location: Bloody Queensland where every thing is 20 years behind the rest of Australia! | Registered: 25 January 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Hi Frekkie,

The ideal expander would be a gently conical one. The .408", if it is so, should works. Other option is to make one. A gunsmith or a lathe operator can make a perfect tapered expander button of around .400" diameter.

Good luck!
 
Posts: 377 | Registered: 17 March 2006Reply With Quote
Moderator
Picture of jeffeosso
posted Hide Post
hey.. can you mike the shoulder of an unfired round and the "new" shoulder.. when you said you didn't resize them, it triggered a thought


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38365 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Or take a photo of a new unfired case sitting next to a fired case.

The rifle may be another caliber or been rechambered.

The case shoulder should be .022 past the fired case shoulder location in your photo.
 
Posts: 217 | Registered: 29 July 2009Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


Copyright December 1997-2023 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia