Guys,

I recently purchased a Holland & Holland double rifle chambered in 450 black powder express. I purchased some Woodleigh 350 grain BPE specific bullets for it. This rifle has the typical tapered bore, the grooves measure .462 near the chamber, and tapers to .454 near the muzzle.

My question is, would the jacketed Woodleigh bullets be safe to use, or should I stick with cast lead bullets? I’m just afraid that I would damage the barrels trying to shoot .458 jacketed bullets through a .454 groove, but maybe the taper will make everything play nicely?

Any help with this would be great!

Personally I would email Woodleigh & ask them if their bullet is suitable,I have shot cast in a DR but it was a full out nitro & not a BP,I do not do so anymore anyways because cast seems to have the highest barrel strain as compared to a number of other types of bullets,interestingly,Kynoch loads a 350 gr bullet for this caliber as well.

Thanks for your response. I emailed Woodleigh to confirm.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73: .......because cast seems to have the highest barrel strain as compared to a number of other types of bullets......

That B&M Rifles "barrel strain" with cast bullets testing is still causing some discussion.
It is undeniable that a bullet cast of a typical black powder rifle mix of 1-40 to 1-20 will be more malleable than most jacketed bullets.
Just try slugging a barrel with a jacketed bullet versus a relatively hard 1-20 mix lead bullet or slug.

Now whether the strain from a cast bullet is in fact a problem remains to be seen. I have not read that any of the known/published examples of barrel failure in vintage double rifles happened with cast lead bullets. Add to this the note that pressures in traditional Black Powder or Nitro for Black loadings for vintage/antique rifles is approximately 2/3's of that in a full Nitro rifle, ie: 8 to 10 tons versus ~15 tons. Surely that alone would make a difference in measured strain on a barrel.

Your rifle is a period H&H, shoot it with what it was designed for: cast grease groove bullets or paper patch.....no harder than 1-20.

vandeusenps- do you have a copy of Graeme Wright's Shooting the British Double Rifle? It has a wealth of excellent information on loading for double rifles especially for the Nitro for Black in the .450 X 3.25" Well worth owning a copy!!

I tend to agree with Redstone about using cast bullets.
But it is your choice.
Good Luck!
Jim

The same old question came up some years ago that monolithic bullets would split barrels, and 4831 would blow up double rifles ... Todate Ive use both many times in many doubles including two black powder guns..JIm Brockman hammers several monolithics through double rifle barrels wit no serious results..

Since that time all those many posts have cooled down and many many shooters are using monolithics to shoot African game with..many have been using 4831, 4350 and 7828 in doubles, both English and US, Searcys I know for sure. All with good results.

The world of the double gun is flush with old wives tales, its part of its charisma I suppose.

Ray,
Your input is certainly worth considering “if” one has a later Nitro Era/Nitro Proof rifle.
IMO your experience and opinion are less advised if dealing with an earlier than mid 1890’s Black Powder Era rifle.
ie: why RISK an irreplaceable bit of history with dubious loadings?

- Mike

Guys,

I reached out to Woodleigh bullets following Bill73's recommendation. I gave them the groove dimensions of my rifle (.461 in front of chamber, .454 at muzzle), and asked them to confirm if the 350 grain jacketed BPE bullets would cause any issues in my rifle.

Geoff McDonald from Woodleigh bullets responded within a day or so of sending the email. He mentioned that these bullets have a very soft jacket and lead core, and there won't be any issues shooting these through the tight grooves.

I've loaded 20 rounds, 4 each at a few grains below to a few grains above the 40% of service charge with H4198. Hoping to shoot these this weekend, I'll provide a quick summary of my results if I get the chance.

quote:

Originally posted by vandeusenps:
Guys,

I reached out to Woodleigh bullets following Bill73's recommendation. I gave them the groove dimensions of my rifle (.461 in front of chamber, .454 at muzzle), and asked them to confirm if the 350 grain jacketed BPE bullets would cause any issues in my rifle.

Geoff McDonald from Woodleigh bullets responded within a day or so of sending the email. He mentioned that these bullets have a very soft jacket and lead core, and there won't be any issues shooting these through the tight grooves.

I've loaded 20 rounds, 4 each at a few grains below to a few grains above the 40% of service charge with H4198. Hoping to shoot these this weekend, I'll provide a quick summary of my results if I get the chance.

Good that you got confirmation from Woodleigh.

Re: your loads you just assembled with H4198....you did use either backer rod, Dacron, or Kapok to take up the airspace in the case?
- Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:

quote:

Originally posted by vandeusenps:
Guys,

I reached out to Woodleigh bullets following Bill73's recommendation. I gave them the groove dimensions of my rifle (.461 in front of chamber, .454 at muzzle), and asked them to confirm if the 350 grain jacketed BPE bullets would cause any issues in my rifle.

Geoff McDonald from Woodleigh bullets responded within a day or so of sending the email. He mentioned that these bullets have a very soft jacket and lead core, and there won't be any issues shooting these through the tight grooves.

I've loaded 20 rounds, 4 each at a few grains below to a few grains above the 40% of service charge with H4198. Hoping to shoot these this weekend, I'll provide a quick summary of my results if I get the chance.

Good that you got confirmation from Woodleigh.

Re: your loads you just assembled with H4198....you did use either backer rod, Dacron, or Kapok to take up the airspace in the case?
- Mike

I used 1/2” foam backer rod based on the recommendations provided in “Shooting the English Double Rifle”.

Any results to report?
Would like to hear what you learned.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Any results to report?
Would like to hear what you learned.

Finally got a chance to shoot this rifle. For this session I loaded 43 to 46 grains (4 each at one grain increments) of H4198, using backer rod to keep the powder against the primer. Velocity was way low, none of the rounds got much above 1500fps. That being said, I got some ok groups, all of them measured 3 to 3.5 inches at 50 yards for a composite 4 shot group. All groups had the right barrel stacking both shots on top of the left one. I'll try increasing velocity to 1700 or 1800 fps and see if that helps. If not, I'll try different bullet types and continue to experiment.

As a side note, I didn't encounter any pressure signs. Primers looked fine, and cases easily extracted from the rifle. I've already sent three of the fired cases to Hornady so they can make me a custom sizing die.