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Looking for a good source of premium bullet penetration test data between various bullet designs (i.e. partition vs. mono-metal) as well as comparing bullets weights in same designs i.e. Barnes .30 caliber 165 gr. vs. 180 gr. thank you. | ||
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I would also like to see such a test. It would have to be very extensive - several bullets weights, at different velocities, with different bullets. Our own limited test showed that bullets like the Barnes X and our own Walterhog bullets, in 375 caliber, 300 grains, had best penetration between 2700-2800 FPS. Above and below that velocity the penetration was less. For actual hunting, we can control the penetration of or bullets by altering the depth, and diameter, of the hollow point. Narrow, and shallow, hollow points penetrate further, all things being equal. Our bullets penetrate a Cape buffalo from the tail to the front of the neck, going across the body. | |||
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What happens in these tests is a partition will win one time and the monolithic will win the next test...and in both tests Ive found the difference is only a few inches all things being equal..Expansion kills penetration, but expansion kills more quikly, fact is its an over rated scenario, on ways to kill game, and so many varibles involved that its turned into a cartoon carnival for hunters to play with!! Experience will tell anyone that most of todays designs have differences but most all bullets today get the job done and done well... My favorite bullets in the 270 are the 160 Nosler partition for elk and moose or a 150 GS Customs or Barnes TTSX 150 gr. you can usally drop a grade in weight with a monolithic and pick up a goodly velocity and maybe a tad of penetration, but you may get a quicker kill with the Partition or Accubond and enough penetration!!! Roll the dice..I could give you the same scenario on the 30-06 or the 7MMs....Big bores are even closer to each other, in fact its hard not to kill a big animal with a big bore rifle,so what are we talking about? Well mostly a conversational cat fight for fun campfire talks on a cool evening in the Selous over a Sundowner, and worth the price of a safari.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Mr. A: thanks for sharing your experience. My motive for asking isn't just for discussion: I'll be heading back up north hunting the big bears again: you hear so much completely conflicting info from VERY experienced people re: brown bears that it leaves me scratching my head: some outfitters say they want their hunters bringing nothing smaller than a .375 with premium bullets and then others that say that an 06' with 200 gr. NP will give MORE penetration. A couple years ago, a Barnes tech guy told me I wouldn't gain ANY penetration going from 165 gr. to 180 gr. with their TSX, but many experienced men want the heaviest for caliber. Guess I've just bought into the fun to discuss idea. I thought it would be educational to see some actual comparisons but maybe there aren't any. | |||
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There have been several links posted here to bullet tests and some are pretty informative it just takes time to find them try searching in Medium bore and Reloading forums here. Also review some discussions in the Alaska forum on AR especially 30/06 on Bears. Phil gives some great advice, experiences and recommendations on Bear rifles and bullet choices. I'm no Bear guide but if you shoot what rifle you are pinpoint accurate with under all situations that you would hunt Elk or Moose with then take that rifle. Accuracy trumps "magnum" in every situation. I'll look and try to post links if I find them. | |||
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Also try some of your own testing. Shooting water jugs is informative and fun all in one, may not be a definitive test but will give you some idea about shear penetration. Line up 5 or 6 milk jugs full of water at 100 yards and center punch them with your 165 and 180 Monometals. In my experience you will get 30 to 36" of penetration in water jugs and will recover your "mushrooms". I too would be surprised if there is any difference in the 165 and 180's at 30/06 velocity. Although the Partitions are reputed to be excellent penetrators I think they fall second to the Mono's. Monometals are designed to retain nearly all their weight, Partitions shed 40% of there weight in early expansion and retain the back half (60%) for penetration all the while losing momentum and mass. | |||
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I have lost only two animals that I can remember. I have great confidence in Nosler partitions from 22 to 338. I have never shot one at an animal in 375 or above (Pigs excluded: they are targets where I live). 95% are bang flops, I have found outstanding accuracy in the TTSX but few bang flops. The quarry dies but runs 50 yds. That being said I have such great confidence in the Nosler partition I have seen little reason to change. While in Africa I used Norhfork solid shank softs and CEB 13's as my solid. Never pulled the trigger on a solid as the Northforks took care of everything in short order.I only recovered one projectile and that was in the skin beneath the hind quarter on a frontal chest shot on a Zebra (416; 370 gr.). A 500 gr NF (470) @ 2200 FPS shot through both shoulders and exited on a buffalo at 30 yrs. | |||
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My experiences are similar to Saeed's. TSXs in medium-heavy to heavy for caliber at ~2700+ fps have been excellent penetrators. 4-5 ft of front to back - brown bear, moose, elk Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I am curious, which outfitters are saying this? Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Mr. jbrown: Just to reiterate: my interest is in penetration comparisons between bullet weights in same calibers as well as comparing penetration of calibers with various premium bullets, not necessarily caliber adequacy for brown bear. However, in response to your question, if you look at gear recommendations of many of the brown bear outfitters, they will say prefer either .338 or .375 with premium bullets, and some say just .375. However, it sounds like some small caliber (30) premium bullets will give more penetration that larger caliber (i.e..375). | |||
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The nice thing about the .338 and 375 on any soft skinned game up to and including buffalo is a cup and core or a super bullet like the Nosler Partition and Accubond, Barnes and GSC monolithic, even a Rem Corelokt or WW PowerPoint and my all time favorite 375 bullet, the 350 gr. Woodleigh PP, will all kill about anything..Hell in a 375 you could load it with beer cans and it'd work!  Ive never had a bad experience with the .375 H&H on anything with any bullet. Don't know personally anyone that has..Only in print and rumor.. I would hunt Brown Bear with a 30-06, with 200 gr. Nosler partitions and a Phil Shoemaker to back me up any day..but I doubt that he would have to back me up..but that said, if push came to shove I would hunt Brown Bear or buffalo with a 30-06 and some nolser 200 partitions and a hand full of solids for the buffalo just in case..That may not be the best scenario but Id still do it and feel confident. Keep in mind things can go south with any caliber if you the hunter screw up..If the first shot is good, all is well 999 times out of a 1000. Just my two bits, but to each his own on such things. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Mr Ray, Well.....count me as your first disgruntled .375 H&H user. It was during the ‘80’s, using Sierra 300 grain SPBT’s. Three animals shot, 2 recovered....with the two recovered there was complete bullet “deconstruction”, finding “only” an empty jacket. These were not large animals, a spike mule deer and a 300 to 350 pound black bear. Both animals were shot broadside, no heavy bones hit....in fact the only bone hit, was a rib on the Bear. Neither bullet exited, pretty ridiculous for a 300 grain bullet,on relatively small big game , with broadside shots taken. An elk was lost, because I had far too much faith in my bullet, taking a shot that should have been an easy kill for the H&H. I’d sure have hated using these against a large, dangerous animal, in a life threatening situation! I switched to Hornady 270’s and never encountered another failure. In testing the two bullets, incidental test medium, all of the Hornadys gave the classic “mushroom”. There was nothing “recoverable” from the 300 Sierra’s. I contacted Sierra concerning my bullet failures, and their excuses/explanations....only made me much angrier. Their Excuses: Maybe I was loading them too hot! Maybe, my barrel rifling was too sharp, cutting the jacket! Perhaps, I was using the wrong powder. I’ve have been told that Sierra has much improved this bullet....I shall “NEVER” have the opportunity to prove or disprove that. memtb You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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memtb THe "1980's" were 30 plus years ago.... Everyone has improved their product since then. Your experience 35 years ago can not be deemed as typical behavior of todays product no matter what brand. | |||
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Snellstrom, Had I not received such  answers from Sierra, I may....repeat, may reconsider. However, 26 years ago I was introduced to a great bullet, which has “only” improved with time! I’ll just stay we’re I’m at. No doubt, all bullet manufacturing has improved over the years. “Fool me once, shame on you......”! memtb You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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What I would do in a case like that is use another bullet, maybe a Nosler partition or Accubond or a TTSX, like you did, good move.. I on the other hand have never had a complaint with the 300 gr. Sierra although limited use, on one cape buffalo, one shot kill fairly quickly but ran 100 or so yards, pretty normal cape buffalo kill, and a couple of elk and deer. Lots of good bullets out there if one fails I seldom give it a second chance..If I was going to shoot bear I would not normally use a Sierra but a 350 gr Woodlieh or a 300 gr. Nosler partition in a .375. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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 While thirty years old, it is still true data. I had the same experience in the '80s with Sierra in both 375 (300gn) and 338 (250gn). At the time I went to the Nosler partitions in 338. Nowadays I am content with TTSXs. My anecdotal observations are that the TTSX will out-penetrate the Partition, probably because many partitions would blow their nose-weight. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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