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Has anyone used "H-1000" or "Retumbo" in this cartridge, or another as badly overbore? I am having difficulty maintaining my original velocity due to lot-to-lot variations in this powder and now, to add to my difficulty, it's discontinued. I had the rifle built in '96 and developed loads that were quite satisfactory; 83.0 gr. H-870, Sierra 140 MK - 3,400 fps and 3/8" groups. Upon shooting through that particular batch of powder, it was replaced. The new batch seemed slightly "hotter" and would not quite tolerate the original load, with pressure signs beginning to appear. About the same time, I realized that a hard carbon fouling ring in the throat was causing pressures to spike when I had exceeded about fifteen rounds between cleanings. BTW, I also found out that many solvents will remove copper and not even touch this damn carbon ring. Consequently, I reduced the load by one grain, to 82.0, which eliminated the pressure indications and allowed a few more shots between cleanings. I recently got into yet another lot that is showing mild pressure signs with even the lighter load. Early data, such as the old Sierra manual, Ackley's handbooks and the Powley calculator all indicate charges up to 87 grains, which I was never able to match in my rig. I was able to get 84, settled on 83, went to 82 and now . . . Perhaps the original MilSurp suppliers are drying out or otherwise degrading and changing the burning rate? Common sense dictates reducing the charge weight even further, but I just don't want to. The main reason being that I have had a Leupold scope done by Premier Reticles, that has dots calibrated for impact points out to 1,000 yards and they are getting less correct every time I do something else to the velocity. I would also add that accuracy is still extremely good, in spite of the pressures issue. At 900 yards, my last 3 shot group was about 6", but 14" below the corresponding dot. Correcting the elevation for the 900 yard dot puts them in the 'V', but causes too much error in the closer ranges and is unsatisfactory. I am now shooting at 3,290, with a scope set up for 3,400, and imminent plans to drop down even further. I am going to have to change powders at some point. I have 8# of this last lot of H-870, and the only use I have for it is this rifle. Rats. To get through this batch, I decided to try to find a bullet that was lighter, yet presented a similar ballistic coefficient, as to be compatible with the scope. The Sierra 140MK has a BC of .545, and I found the 6.5 Lapua 8g/123gr match BTHP has a BC of .547 - close enough. With the weight difference, I should be able to safely re-approach 3,400 fps, which is how the scope is calibrated and hopefully, get happy for a while longer. I hope they'll expand, since this is mainly a groundhog rifle. Once the current batch of 870 is gone, or, if I cannot get accuracy, velocity or expansion from these Lapua slugs, I back to finding another powder. I have tried a batch of 5010, but it's burning rate was almost exactly the same as the 870 I had on hand at the time. IMR7828 is way too fast, except with extremely light bullets. Does anyone have any suggestion to help overcome this problem? Any experience with comparing H-870 with any of the newer powders available? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} Thanks in advance, Ed | ||
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Accurate claims their 8700 is the same as H-870, but I found it to be a little faster. I'm in the same boat as you, I only have 5 pounds of the same lot number left...but that should last me until I leave the earth... | |||
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I have had excellent, (make that EXCELLENT) results with WC 872 (an Olin surplus powder) in both .264 Winchester and 7mm STW. It is significantly slower than H870, but gives extremely consistent velocities and is not at all hard to ignite even with standard force primers. Several surplus dealers sell it, and it is available either as pull-down (used as 20mm powder, I believe) or newly manufactured powder. As a bonus, it usually runs in the $30 per 8-pound jug range. I have not had quite as good luck with the similar WC 860 (which actually seems just a tad slower), but lot-to-lot variations could account for this. | |||
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eshell, In my 6.5/300 WWH I run either H-870 which im down to about 7lbs left or WC 872.. Both in which I use 85-87grains behind 139gr Norma's or 142grain MatchKings in a 30" tube with 1-8 twist velocity is around 3500fps.... Have also used X-283 but not sure if thats even available any longer... Hope this helps 6.5 Bandit | |||
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quote:Hey Ed, I used to burn a whole bunch of H870 and had similar results with light weight bullets. The H870 really needs the resistance of heavier bullets so the burn will be clean. Long ago Bruce Hodgdon answered this question by suggesting we make a Paste using your favorite Bore Cleaner and "Bon Ami" cleansing powder and scrub the barrel with it. It worked well for me by loading up a Bore Mop with the Paste and giving the barrel a few strokes. Then follow with a good brass brush for 8-10 strokes. Then just follow your regular cleaning routine. Be sure to use "Bon Ami" because it is non-abrasive. Good luck with the scrubbing. | |||
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Actually, Bon Ami is abrasive. It contains the abrasives feldspar and calcite (go see www.bonami.com if you doubt). However, these are rather mild and fine abrasives. I would use Bon Ami in a badly fouled hunting rifle barrel, but not an expensive aftermarket barrel. jpb quote: | |||
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quote:Well, jpb is correct, Bon Ami is composed of abrasives. If it wasn't "abrasive" to the Powder Residue, you might just as well scrub it with wishes. The Bon Ami abrasives would best be thought of as "soft abrasives" when compared to other cleansers like Comet, etc., which will actually scratch a barrel. I used the Bon Ami / Bore Cleaner mix for about 15 years and never had a problem with any barrel scratches in any rifle I used it in. I did some research into Abrasives about 3 years ago and found out that "Garnet" is the only commercially available Abrasive that is Non-Embedding. So, if a person is concerned about the Bon Ami(which my experience indicates is a waste of worrying), a person could make the Paste from Garnet. It is readily available from commercial sources, or can be purchased in 600 and 800 mesh(not grit) from Brownells. Good scrubbing to you. | |||
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I would try RAMSHOT MAGNUM,just because TAC and BIG Game are so good and clean! I`m going try it in my 300win if I ever get back to it! I`m having to much fun loading for my 358win and my 338-06! Ed | |||
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Good old Bon Ami. Bruce Hodgdon loved the stuff. Of course, it is abrasive, but "housewives" (gotta be careful about that term these days) like it because it will cut scum on a porcelin or finished plastic surface but won't damage the finish with normal use. I think that it's pretty safe to say that it would be difficult to damage barrel steel with the stuff. Since Hodgdon passed on, you don't hear much about Bon Ami and I forget about it, but I think I will try some on my next cleaning job to see how it does compared to today's fancy and pricey cleaning solvents. | |||
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quote:Thanks for that, since I was wondering how it would be. I think I need to get one step slower and would have wasted my money on a faster powder. quote:Dang, hate to look at it that way, unless you're using it in a .25 ACP ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:This sounds like it may be worth checking out. Thanks. Couldn't be much more reasonably priced. I found a reference to it at "patsreloading.com" where they had some advertised in SGN. | |||
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quote:I could never get to 85 in my rifle, an M700 with a 29" Hart. I remember seeing x283 listed, maybe in the second Sierra manual, but never saw it available anywhere. IIRC, it would have delivered even higher velocities than 870. | |||
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quote:Perhaps you are correct, I have never used anything heavier than the 140 Sierras and Bergers, although I know a bunch now exist. At the time I set everything up, the 140MK seemed the most efficient, available and affordable. When the rifle was done, I was warned about the severe bore erosion and how the throuat would be washed out in 500 rounds - scared me to death. I stuck with my first 'good' load and immediately had the scope done to match it. Worked great for a good while. quote:Ahh yes, Bon Ami. How old ARE you, anyway?? ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} I haven't heard of using Bon Ami for a very long time and had forgotten about it completely. Back from the days prior to the miracle solvents. I will give serious consideration to trying this. It is a great leap of faith to use something like that in a top of the line Hart barrel, but it does have a bunch of miles on it and it's not working as it should anyway. It does get me thinking, though. It occurs to me that my rifle's increasing intolerance to higher charges might reflect a carbon buildup I cannot detect. I can clean it thoroughly enough with Sweet's that I can wet the bore and let it stand 10 minutes and still come out with a perfectly white patch. I can soak the bore with my mixture of Shooter's Choice and Kroil overnight and get no sign of fouling. Using JB, I get dark patches, but have never seen JB come out otherwise . . . Hey 6.5 bandit, how do you clean your WWH? | |||
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quote:I'm not familiar with the Ramshot line. I'll check it out, thanks. A clean burn may not exist when the powders get into the "charcoal" portion of the burning rate range. BTW, a buddy has a match grade 300WinMag and has very good success with H-1000 and 180's of various flavors. | |||
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quote:Thanks Lee, I have dealt with Hi-Tech before with projectiles, fine service. I went to their site and they have the WC872 suggested above as follows: quote:Thank you all for your suggestions and advice, and for the discussion of the pros and cons of Bon Ami. I really appreciate the insight ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} I am going to get a can of Bon Ami tonight on the way home, think it over another day or two, and then very likely give her hell with the Bon Ami. Maybe I can get back to where she used to be. I have about twenty rounds left from the last batch that shot well but showed pressure signs, so I do have a "control". I should be able to see if the Bon Ami relieves pressure due to accumulated fouling by comparison of bolt-lift effort, or if it seems to degrade accuracy by looking at new groups vs. old. Thanks again!! Ed [ 08-13-2003, 22:17: Message edited by: eshell ] | |||
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Ed, Mine is a 30" Hart tube... Built on a Enfield action.. As a matter of fact all the one's I and my dad has ever owned prolly around 20 of them have always been 30" Hart tubes on either mauser 98's or Enfield's.. I clean my bbls alot and very rarely will let them get to hot.. When im at the range or LR chuck hunting I will run a patch or 2 with Hoppes Benchrest about every 3-4 rounds.. When I get back home I will run a patch of Kroil oil and let it sit till morning then clean it out with some Benchrest... My last bbl had around 3500 rounds through it before I retired it (most of the time we had them replaced @ around 2000 rounds)and now im awaiting my new bbl to get finished... What brass are you using??? Mine have always been the Weatherby brass.. Just makes me curious on why you can only run 82gr... For all of ours that we have owned everyone we run 85-87gr of 870 or wc872 most have been with 139 Normas as well.. Havent run the 142 MK's much just becouse we still have a few thousand Norma's... But even with the times I tried them loads still were 85-87gr's... With NO pressure signs.. 6.5 Bandit | |||
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quote:Hey Ed, Old enough to have have been raised so I knew it was proper to call Mr. Hodgdon and thank him for sharing that great bit of wisdom. Sure made life easier for me when using H870 and 150gr bullets. quote:Let me "suggest" you(you all) prove to yourself about just how abrasive the Bon Ami actually is. When I was doing my research into the abrasives, I had a Galvanized plate that had been exposed to the elements for 8-12 years that I did my actual testing on. Obviously the Galvanize will "scratch" before barrel steel would. Maybe you have an old Galvanized bucket outside somewhere which would also do. Take a "Soft" toothbrush and put regular old Colgate toothpaste on it. Pick a non-rusted spot on the Galvanize and give it 100 strokes(back & forth is 1 stroke) and mark that spot. This is your Benchmark Comparison area. Note just how nice and shinny the spot is. Clean the brush thoroughly and do the same thing again with a toothpaste containing a Whitening compound(two Dentists told me this was the most abrasive toothpaste made), repeat the scrubbing in a different spot and mark it. Re-clean the brush and repeat the test with the Bon Ami / Bore Cleaner Paste. If it doesn't scratch the Galvanize, it won't scratch barrel steel. For those of you that have the "Lapping Kits" laying around, give the compound found in them a try and see what it does. And if you decide to test Garnet, save yourself some time and begin with 600 mesh. Some of the larger meshes of Garnet will in fact scratch the Galvanize. ... Thank you again Mr. Hodgdon and please keep a space reserved for me. Not ready to join you just yet, but eventually I'll be there. [ 08-14-2003, 03:49: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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Ed, thought you would like to Know, H1000 And Ramshot Magnum have the same burn rate!!! Western Powders Inc. 1-800-497-1007 ! Ed, | |||
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quote:The 30" blank finished out to 29" - sometimes (halfway up the hill) I wish for 16. I have several Rem700's and used one in 300Win to make this rifle up. Sid Goodling in PA did the metal work. I have been very pleased with the whole deal until recently. quote:I'm very careful about letting mine get hot, too. Being paranoid about barrel life also helps keep the pace slow. Most of the time, I shoot groundhogs with it and shots aren't really fast & furious. I took it to a match once, but after watching some of them shoot, I left it in the truck. I'll change up my cleaning regimen and try running a couple wet patches through every few rounds and see how it does. I've got some Hoppes BR. I've been cleaning every time I return, no matter how many times it was fired, with the Kroil/Shooter's Choice and Sweets. I never let it go past 18 or 20 before I stop shooting it. I also use JB about every other time, hoping I am affecting the carbon. quote:That's more than I expected - I'd be delighted to get that many useful rounds out of it. I'm getting close to 700 rounds through mine with little, if any, loss of accuracy. Sid told me it would start declining at about 500, but I suspect I cannot shoot well enough to notice yet. quote:Same here. I bought 100 of the same lot from Gander Mountain and gave them the "treatment"; trued pockets, beveled flash holes, neck turned, taper chamfer, weight sort. . . My loaded necks are .292 and my chamber is .294. quote:This is baffling to me as well. How long is the bearing surface on the Normas, compared to Sierras, I wonder? I got the rifle in '96 and bought 2# (silly me) of the same lot of H870 at a local sporting goods store. This batch shot well, and I got to 85 before getting slightly flattened primers and a bit of resistance on lifting the bolt handle. I dropped to 84 and the bolt opened easily and the primers weren't too flat. I didn't worry too much about not getting to 86 or 87, since I was already impressed by how fast I was going through a pound of powder, and also because all the data I saw was pretty old. Terminal performance also seemed quite sufficient. I shot a bunch of 140 MK Sierras and then tried the Nosler 120BTs, which shot nearly as well. I also blew up two Sierra 85 HP's at the muzzle before I realized what I was dealing with. First powder lot gone, I bought another few pounds of H-870 locally and about the same time, I started seeing intermittent pressure signs for no apparent reason. Halfway through a hunting trip, my bolt would get sticky. Later, after a cool-down, and often, a cleaning, a cartridge from the same batch was fine. I dropped the charge a grain, thinking ambient heat was causing my marginal pressures to get too high. At some point, I extracted a live round and noticed scratching on the bearing surface where it joined the ogive. I had been very concerned about the obvious copper fouling, and sort of assumed my rigorous cleaning was addressing all fouling. Not so. As it turned out, the scratches were being caused by the bullet engaging a hard ring of powder fouling when chambered. I started adding a powder solvent to my regimen and the scratch marks went away, but re-appear after shooting as few as 15 rounds. After the typical cleaning, there was never any sign of powder fouling on my patches, yet enough remained to mark my bullet, until I used more effort toward the carbon. I had a Canjar trigger installed at about 200 rounds, and Sid borescoped the barrel while I was there. He said it "looked good", with regards to any cleaning rod wear or firecracking. I feel confident he would have scolded me if it was dirty, so i believe it was fine then. Now, smart enough to buy a BIG can of powder, I cannot seem to load to the same level with my shiney new can. Darn. After seeing posts by HotCore & StoneCreek, I am now wondering if I have inadvertantly allowed this powder fouling to accumulate to the point of affecting pressures. What irritates me is that i just can't prove it's there. Except for scratching the bullet, there were never any obvious indications of the buildup I knew I had. Still wouldn't explain why I never got past 85 grains, but different rifles . . . Picked up some BonAmi, unless I get some some revelation soon, I guess I'm going for broke and putting some in my barrel. Another day or two and I'll have worked up the nerve. 6.5 bandit, Thanks!, I really appreciate your experience, I think I am the only one on my street shooting this caliber. | |||
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quote:That was decent of you, he did make MANY contributions to the sport. I think he and Barnes could have run almost the whole show. quote:Thanks for the suggestion/reminder/history lesson, I am taking it to heart. There is now a can of BonAmi on the bench, I am hoping for the best. Looks like I'll clean it out this weekend and shoot it some early next week. [ 08-15-2003, 19:44: Message edited by: eshell ] | |||
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quote:Thanks, ELB, I'll check it out. Even with getting my immediate problem solved (I hope), I might still have to find another s l o w powder. | |||
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Ed, Do you by chance happen to live in pa?? If so maybe we can get together sometime.. The Norma's I have are old right before Norma quit making them my dad and a few other gentleman bought 500,000 of them.. So I have plenty to last me a very long time.. Allthough my personal supply is running extremly low I can get my hands on a whole bunch more.. My loaded rounds are 3.600 from the tip my case alone is 2.800 and my neck is also .295.. I always seat mine to the lands as well... These mesurements come from memory and may slightly be off... If you like send me a pm with your addy and I can send you a few of those Norma's if ya like... 6.5 Bandit | |||
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quote:I'm in central Maryland, south of Baltimore. Sid Goodling's shop in PA is about a 1-1/2 hour run. I go to Western MD for most of my LR shooting. Here, I am stuck with 100 & 200 yard ranges and 50 acre farms - practically Hornet territory. I was member at the PA 1,000 yard club for a couple years, but it was too far for a casual run, about 4 hours out. I'd definitely be interested in shooting together if we could work it out. I don't mind a drive, and regularly go three hours to shoot groundhogs or long range. I have a "nearly" level, lasered 900 yard shot at the farm I use in the mountains, near Deep Creek Lake. It would be very educational to shoot with someone else with a 6.5-300WWH. We'll have to talk about the bullets. Check your PM. | |||
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I also puckered at the thought of H870 going away and emailed Accurate Arms to see how AA8700 was going to hold up. They have enough in stock to last 7 years, and will have more made after it is drawn down. It needs good start pressure so undersize your necks and use a firm factory crimp die. If you are fouling really is powder, and not jacket material, J&B bore cleaner is an excellent paste, and a bore snake will keep the particles of powder residue from embedding with a pass through the bore every 5 rounds. | |||
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quote:"ricciardelli" has tried it (above) and his experience indicates a slightly faster burn tha the original H-870, probably makes it too fast for me. Oh well . . . quote:Thanks for your suggestions, Sabot. The cartidge it is being used in is a wildcat derived from a larger caliber case, and it's neck turned and prepped to benchrest style standards, so I don't crimp. My neck die sizing ring already reduces the neck diameter to .003 below the finished neck and I'm reluctant to increase tension, for fear of bullet base damage during seating. What I could do, is put the bullet tighter to the rifling, to increase start pressures, but my pressures are already getting critical. If I can solve the immediate pressure problem, I may be able to prevent future buildup by taking some of your advice. quote:Yeah, it's powder. I have been very successful in keeping the copper to a minimum, but this hard carbon is a new animal to me. JB doesn't do much to it, though when the initial problem started, JB helped. The cleaning with the bore snake is a good suggestion, and the intermediate cleaning idea was also advanced by "6.5 Bandit". Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and start doing 'something' every few rounds. I think I have made some progress, as I outline below. | |||
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Well, I said a small prayer and loaded the patch with a mixture of solvent and Bon Ami this past weekend. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} First, I cleaned the rifle as well as I could, using Sweets for the copper and Hoppes BR for the powder/carbon. I dry-brushed the bore, applied Sweets, let stand, repeat, etc. until no more blue. I switched to Hoppes, did the same thing, until no more black. I ran some Shooter's choice & Kroil mix through and no further fouling was removed. I used a very tight patch and JB for a while, then tried the powder solvent again, got just a little bit of black on the patch, but not much. Tried the Sweets, then the Hoppes, no apparent fouling. As far as my regular methods went, I was done and it was now "clean". Nope. Then, I mixed some Shooter's Choice with the Bon Ami to make a paste. I used it like JB, putting a little on a tight patch, running it back and forth and reloading or replacing the patch occasionally. Holy Cow!! Glad I was alone, I got so much black gunk out of the rifle, I was embarrassed. I wish now that I had weighed the rifle before and after! Initially, it was difficult to get the patch through the throat, but as soon as it got about 6" up the bore, it slid easily. I could not feel this fouling at all with the JB or solvent on the patches, but I sure could with the Bon Ami. The more I worked on it, the shorter the distance I had difficulty with. I worked on the bore with Bon Ami & solvent until it felt slick from one end to the other. It was amazing, the amount of carbon that came out, even after JB and the rest of stuff passed through. I finished up with trying Sweets and Hoppes, but got no fouling on the patches whatsoever. I left a light film of Kroil in the bore, which I'll dry patch before I shoot. I didn't get the opportunity to fire it, so I don't know whether it's ruined or rejuvenated yet. I have a range trip planned for either Tuesday or Wednesday, so I'll get a chance to see then. Judging from the amount of "material" I've removed, I can't believe some major difference in performance won't be apparent. I'll report back when I get out. We'll see. Again, thank you all for your assistance. I am encouraged at this point and I appreciate your help. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Ed [ 08-18-2003, 19:18: Message edited by: eshell ] | |||
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which version of Bon Ami are you using? as there are alot of diffrent ones on that web-site.. and what kind of shooters choice are you using to make the paste with? | ||
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quote:This is the one I (and I think others) have been talking about Bon Ami Cleanser It is the one you would buy to clean your bathtub. eshell: Thanks for the feedback on your experience with Bon Ami! As a non-benchrest shooter, I will try it if I find a bore that resists JB bore cleaning compound. jpb [ 08-19-2003, 18:47: Message edited by: jpb ] | |||
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quote:This looks like it, unless they put something else in a very similar can, and is the only kind I remember seeing around:  quote:I used their regular bore cleaner as shown below, not the copper remover: Bore Cleaner  I used a small plastic tray, poured some Bon Ami in, wet it with solvent and mixed it well. When I pick it up on a patch, the patch material wicks away much of the solvent, leaving the Bon Ami slightly "caked", so I moisten the patch again with a few drops of solvent to thin it out. | |||
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quote:You are quite welcome. I appreciate the assistance I've received in this thread myself. What really surprised me was the amout of gunk it took out when I could not detect it with a JB or solvent patch. I suspect the carbon was well polished from my cleaning efforts and felt smooth to everything I've used except the Bon Ami, which dragged considerably at first. BTW, I was talking with a friend about this and he reminded me of the old mechanic's trick of using a tablespoon of Bon Ami to help new piston rings seat. The practice was to start the engine and hold an open tablespoon of Bon Ami in front of the carb intake and let it gradually be drawn into the airstream and down into the engine. It was said to cut break-in time substantially. | |||
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quote:Hmmmmm! I had been assuming that I would feel a rough area when I used my JB Bore Cleaning paste. Now you convinced me that I should try Bon Ami on my 7mm Rem Mag that has lost the accuracy that it once had! Nothing to lose, a lot to gain! Unfortunately, I have found that Bon Ami does not seem to be sold in Sweden. Damn -- a couple of tablespoons would probably be all I need! ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} jpb [ 08-22-2003, 23:12: Message edited by: jpb ] | |||
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Unfortunately, I have found that Bon Ami does not seem to be sold in Sweden. Damn -- a couple of tablespoons would probably be all I need! jpb[/QB][/QUOTE] Well, I'd be glad to mail you an envelope full, but I'm afraid our ever-vigilant Department of Homeland Security (has a nice Teutonic ring to it, doesn't it?) would think it was anthrax spores. After all, these are the same folks who alerted us last week to the purchase of $30,000 worth of United Parcel Service uniforms on eBay as a suspected terrorist plot. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Well, I've been to the range and can report some aspects. I could only make it to the 100 yard line, but feel much better now anyway. I shot the last loads I had (82.0) and the pressure signs were gone. Hooraw! Accuracy was just fine. I was slinging them into a small cluster until I blew one. I had 6 shots into .291, then yanked one out to make it about 5/8". I wasn't square on the bags and had a little side pressure holding it on target, and just as the short broke, I saw the crosshair drift off to the right - relaxed too soon. I knew it was gone without even looking. Dumbass. Oh well. Since this is about as well as I ever shoot, I'd say "my" accuracy is unaffected. I dry brushed the bore after about ten shots. Pressures stayed down until I had fired 19 times, upon which I had some added resistence to the bolt lift. I chambered, then extracted, a loaded round, and was able to see scratches on the bearing surface from accumulated powder fouling. Bummer. I stopped shooting it, pending cleaning. Cleaning went fairly well, and, besides the solvents, it only took a little JB to get it cleaned up. Jacket fouling seemed pretty light as well. Good news is that I can possibly get my speed back up. I think I will try loading a few up at 83, 84 & 85 and just shoot them for pressure observations. I will stay with the heaviest load possible to give the 870 more incentive to burn cleanly. Bad news is that I have to figure out how to minimize this powder fouling. I think I'll do two things now: First, I'll consider "Hot Core's" advice concerning H-870 needing much resistance to "eliminate" the worst of the fouling. Perhaps running at max pressure will keep it down some, as well as seating the bullets into the rifling somewhat. Second, I suppose I'll have to resign myself to intermediate cleanings, as suggested by "6.5 bandit". Overall, I think the Bon Ami was productive and restored my bore diameter to original, so reducing pressures. If accuracy is damaged, I cannot tell, at least at 100 yards. I appreciate the help thus far and would appeciate any further comments too. Thanks again, Ed [ 08-23-2003, 15:00: Message edited by: eshell ] | |||
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quote:Hey Ed, Good for you on what appears to be getting the "Pressure" back down. Always aggravating to have it pop up when you have a good load. quote:Sure dislike having to "disagree" with you, but in your first post, I believe you mentioned your groups were running about 3/8"(0.375"). Needless to say, it is unfair to count a called flier in the overall group(unless you were shooting for record). So, it looks like your accuracy has been affected to me. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} quote:I agree. I normally "clean" my barrels a lot more often between shots than you are. My reason for this is I'm seriously interested in where the First bullet is going to go from a cold, clean, lightly greased barrel. And I do have a passing interest in where the second shot will go too. But, if nothing lethal has happened to the Game by then, I've got something seriously wrong with my rifle or cartridge. Due to this, I shoot a lot of "Combined 1-Shot Groups" to see just how well my rifle/cartridge combination will really shoot. Is there a particular reason you are shooting 6 and 7 shot groups? Doing it just for the fun of it? quote:I load for SAFE MAX myself. I'm not sure if getting the additional few grains of powder in the Load will help it burn cleaner or not. Seating "Into-the-Lands" has a good possibility of helping - a bit. Maybe tighter necks would help a bit too. But, the best way to get the Resistance needed is to simply increase the bullet weight. You might not get the screaming muzzle velocity you want, but sometimes the "typically" higher Ballistic Coefficient of the heavier bullet will offset the difference enough to make it a minor issue down range. quote:Good for you. Speaks well for Bruce Hodgdon's wisdom indeed! Best of luck at the extended ranges. [ 08-24-2003, 03:06: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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quote: quote:My previous groups ran about a .375 average, with a few that were smaller. Best one ever was .275 for three shots. quote:Yeah, I suppose my expectations were somewhat unrealistic. When I first got the rifle, I took the vise, rod and cleaning box everywhere and cleaned hell out of it. As time went by, I became lax, since it shot very well even with a little fouling and the only indication of a problem was pressures climbing (which is enough). At this point, I'll follow the advice given by you, 6.5 bandit and others to clean much more often. Obviously (now), I wasn't completely cleaning it out thoroughly enough to prevent long-term accumulation. This was my first cartridge of this (grossly overbore) class, and I suppose I just have not have enough adult supervision. quote:At only 100 yards, all of my shots seem to go into the same group, if I pay attention. The only difference between my first round and others shows up on the chronograph, and would likely show up at very long range as well. My first shot is always about 50-60 FPS lower than any subsequent shot over the screens. After that first shot, the rest are OK. Go figure. After cleaning, I had been coating the bore with Kroil/Shooter's Choice, then running one tight, dry patch through to sop up any excess. It stays that way until I shoot it. quote:That seems like a good idea and is probably the only true test of a hunting rifle; where it puts the first few. quote:No scientific reason, I normally shoot three shot groups with this rifle, when I shoot groups at all. Most of my group shooting is done while in experimental mode and once I establish a decent load, I try to quit playing with it. This time, I was doing a combination of burning up the last few rounds of the last (lightly) loaded batch, as well as trying to see how fast it got dirty and what tolerance I now had for fouling. I was sort of having fun, just dumping them in there. quote:I agree, a heavier bullet may be in order. Though I do like to keep the MV up (gotta be able to justify using a cartridge such as this), speed isn't my only concern. Even at that, my working velocities have been nowhere near those published, and I've been content. My main concern is the increasing intolerance to charges that had been just fine, and having to introduce scope error by backing them down. Much of my gymnastics here are intended to avoid dismounting and sending the scope back to Premier Reticles for weeks and weeks to re-arrange the dots that are calibrated for the original load, which (sob) used to be fine. Were it not for the scope dot consideration, I wouldn't mind holding the load I have now, since it shoots well except for the fouling problem. As it is, my dots are pretty good out to 400 yards or so, but get worse as I go further, winding up 14 or 15 inches low at 900. If it did become necessary to send the scope back, I would definitely go to the Sierra 155 or a similar, heavier bullet. Although what you say about increasing bullet weight makes perfect sense, the combination of 140 bullets and H-870 (albeit heavier charges) appears in all of the published data and runs through the entire history of the cartridge, so I am sort of at a loss. To add to the soup, "6.5 bandit" uses the same combination with very good success, though in greater charge weights. The main difference I see is that he has taken more care to keep up with cleaning, perhaps due to his greater experience with this cartridge. Since I would like to stick with the scope set the way it is and use up my 8# of H-870, I appear to be stuck with the 140's for now. I received the 123 grain Lapua's (same BC), and could drive them to 3,400 easily to salvage the scope dots. But. . . if what is evolving here is an accumulated fouling problem based on insufficient pressures, then I'd be going backwards using lighter bullets yet. [ 08-25-2003, 18:47: Message edited by: eshell ] | |||
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Ed, When you get a chance grab some of those 142 Sierra MK's.. I wouldnt want to go anything heavier then that.. You should be able to push those @ 3400 with ease.. I had those 139gr Norma's I gave you over 3500 without signs of pressure.. My ideal speed for the 6.5 is right around 3450 with taht speed those bullets are traveling extreamly flat.. Since you are running a "tight" neck on your's this maybe the reason you are not able to reach the 85-87gr without pressure signs.. Im itchin to see what this "tight" neck and 40� shoulder will do.. Are you seating to the lands or just off it? Your case's are slightly larger then mine as well.. Didnt get a chance to measure them to see what they really are but just visually I can see they are longer then mine.. I had a really good time shooting the breeze with you guys yesterday and hope to do so again.. If time permits this year maybe you can come up to Williamsport for one of these last few shoots.. Even if your not planning on shooting the match we can stick around after the match and "compete" against each other @ 1000yds .. 6.5 Bandit | |||
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quote:Could be, but it's not as tight as many. My chamber neck is .294, loaded case neck is .292. My neck turner is cleaning up almost all the way around the neck, and I could get more clearance by thinning the necks a bit more. Dunno, dang thing worked before . . . quote:You mean your 6.5-300 Weatherby/Wright/Hoyer, Ackly Improved? Good luck getting that on a custom headstamp Maybe the sharp shoulder will promote a cleaner burn. Be interesting to see the chrono. quote:Just off, but only because that's where I started and since it was pretty much working, I didn't try to fix it further. If I were a better shot, I would try to detect a difference in seating depth. I may try getting into the leade a little more later on, to see if I can move the peak pressure curve back closer to the case mouth. quote:Odd, though not totally unexpected in an obscure wildcat. If they were truly larger, I should have been able to get heavier charges than yours, all other things being equal . . . I have not measured the length within the last two firings, but last "going over" they were trimmed, turned and F/L sized, among other things. Trimming was only to make them uniform, they have always been slightly less than specified length. Of course, I have to check now. quote:Same here, we enjoyed the show and your company. I'll give you a call when we head back up that way. We'll hit some of the shows near Carlisle, Lebanon, etc., too. Next ones are late Sept/early Oct, IIRC. I hope the bullet trade was satisfactory, let me know if I owe you anything, I'll work it out ASAP. Those Norma 139's sure are slippery looking, though all this time, I expected them to be HP's. I do notice the break from the ogive to the bearing surface was difficult to find. I suspect the bearing surface is shorter, making it easier to get the velocity. I am going to get my .0001 mike out and see whats up, compared to what I have. Except for surface color/finish, the Lapua 123 gr. bullets are nearly identical to the Sierra 140MK's. quote:Sounds like a good time, I can always use shooting lessons. I need to find the schedule. Are they online? I had carried the rifle up there to compete (for my first 1,000 yard match) and then realized I was out of my league. Way out. That girl sure could shoot. If I can reach some sort of truce with this rifle, I'd likely enter a match, just for fun. I have a bit more confidence with it since my last visit to Williamsport. Even if I chicken out on the match, we could still shoot some. I always like to play with long shots. The place I shoot is pretty easy to get 900, but to get 1,000 I have to shoot around some obstacles like overhead lines and farm roads. Thanks for your help, Ed [ 08-26-2003, 00:43: Message edited by: eshell ] | |||
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Ed, quote:You like that quote:Sounds like a plan to me.. quote:Im am completely satisfied.... quote:http://www.pa1000yard.com/schedule.html I only go up there on sunday since I dont have a light gun setup for comp.. But if saturday is better for you I could always grab my 25/06 to shoot the match then break out the big gun after its over.. quote:hehe dont feel lonely she can beat alot of the guys/girls that shoot up there.. take it easy.. Brock | |||
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