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.375 H&H Mag Help With Reloads
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<JohnT>
posted
Anyone out there with any good load data for the 235 gn Speer and the 300 gn Barnes X. I am limited in Australia basically to just Winchester and ADI powders (in US branded Hogdon).

Also any opinion on whether magnum primers are required in this caliber. I am currently using WLR primers.

I just can't make the 235gn Speer work yet. I have tried 70 & 71 gn of AR2208 but groups are terrible. 2-2 1/2 inch. Whilst with Win Supreme 270gn Failsafe I get less than 1 inch for 3 shot groups.

Also looking for some light loads too for practice and hunting smaller game.

Could you also tell me the overall length (C.O.L) that you load to. Mine set at Max 3.60 but my rifle is so long throated that I can't seat the bullet close enough to the lands like what they advise in the load manuals cause it won't feed in the magazine.

Any opinions on bullet seating depths?

My rifle is Sako L691 topped with Leupold Vari XII 3-9 in Sako rings.

 
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John,
It sounds exactly like the problem I had when I made some low recoil loads for my wife when using 120gr bullets in Brno 7x57. They would be all over the place no kidding. The throat was so long I could actually push the bullet towards the lands and it would fall out of the case!!
I used 140's and the groups got smaller, with 1" with 160's and 175's.
I have my barreled action in Tuscon Arizona, getting final touchup to .375 Weatherby. I have 200 cartridges loade with 235gr Speers and 78gr IMR-4350. If I had it I'd go shoot some groups for you. Sorry.
 
Posts: 1844 | Location: Southwest Alaska | Registered: 28 February 2001Reply With Quote
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John,

As you probably know ADI 2208 is sold as Varget in the USA. However, I am not convinced it is exactly the same powder. Like yourself, I have found Win Fail Safe 270 grain ammo extremely accurate.

My experience with the ADI powders has been that once you move away from 223, 22/250. 243, 270 and 308, accuracy can be a matter of luck. It also varies with different batches.

I have found in the 375 using 2208 that accuracy can be ifluenced greatly by the primer. The current batch of 2208 I have shoots very well when Winchester primers are used but other batches have been much better with Federal 210s.

Don't worry about the seating depth and freebore. The standard 3.6" is fine with the right load, as your Fail Safe factory ammo demonstrates.

Winchester 760 works very well in 375s but is more suitable for the heavier bullets such as 270 and 300 grains. One load that seems to shoot in any accurate 375 is 78 grains of 760 and the 300 Hornady Round Nose.

I would say in general terms that the 375 is most likely to give its best accuracy with 300 grain bullets and I have always found the 235 Speer a difficult bullet to work with.

"The Powder" for the 375 is Reloader 15. There is supposed to be a big shipment coming in a couple of months. If you ring Denis Tobler on 0248851490 he can give you some information on this.

I think for a light bullet load the 220 Hornady Flat Nose is better than the 235 Speer. One 375 I have here at the moment is shooting around 1.5" with loads from 67 to 73 grains of 2206 and Federal 210 primers.

However, the fastest way to success is 78 grains of 760 and either the 300 Hornady Round Nose and also the 300 grain Sierra.

Mike

 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
<Don G>
posted
John,

Mike has a LOT of experience with the 375 - he's certainly giving you good advice. The most recommended powder for 375 on this site is Reloder-15, and the bullets are usually 270-300 grain.

Mike,

Good to see you again, stop by more often!

Don

[This message has been edited by Don G (edited 04-11-2001).]

 
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<JohnT>
posted
Mike,

Thanks for your insights to loading this calibre. Looks like you have had lots of experience.

Does not look good for getting an accurate load with the 235gn Speer. Pity because as you know we don't have a lot of game big enough to warrant the 270-300gn bullets (nor a .375 for that matter)but you need to practice shooting a .375 somehow.

Very interesting about the Reloader 15. I didn't think it was available in Australia but will follow it up with Dennis Tobler.

From your comments AR2209 must not have been great with the 270-300 gn bullets either? Will try your 760 loads and see how I go.

Thanks for advice on seating depth. One less ghost to chase.

BTW what kind of rifle do you have in .375?

John

 
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John,

A few years back Fuller Firearms brought a lot of of Reloader in and now a place in WA is supposed to be bringing some in this year.

2209 will often shoot OK with both 270 and 300 Hornadies but velocity is not high.

If your main reason for wanting to use the 235 Speer is for expansion on roos and pigs etc. then you will find the 300 Hornady Round Nose is a good all purpose bullet and a very good substitute.

Don't worry about ballistic coefficients and round noses as it does not always work out in the field. The 270 Hornady Spire also works well but is generally more difficult to get to shoot as compared to the 300 Round Nose.

I own 3 Model 70s Stainless. I also have a friends 375 here at the moment and this a Rem 700 416 that was rebarreled to 375 with a number 5 26 inch Tobler barrel. I have it to work up some loads for him and have just been doing some with 220 Hornady Flat nose.

By the way, a full case of 760 (about 86 grains in a full length size case) will usually shoot well with 235 Speer and does about 2800 f/s. However it often produces a large muzzle flash and deep loud boom.

One of the tricks with calibers like 375 and 458 is to try a large variety of loads. Contrary to popular opinion these large calibers with realtively small case case capicities for the bore size often shoot terrible groups with loads they don't they like.

This idea that you just load them with anything and they shoot is false. This idea comes about because large groups look OK with the big holes and people often fire a couple of shots at a rock and hit and then say it is accurate.

The other bullets that work nicely in 375s are the Woodleighs. They make a full round nose, a semi round nose and a protected point in 235, 270 and 300 grains. The Woodleighs work on our light game like pigs and roos.The expansion characteristics of all 3 bullets are the same. The 300 grain simply has a longer shank than the 270 which is longer again than the 235.

If you talk to Geoff McDonald that makes Woodleighs he will tell you that he only started making the spitzer protected points becuase of marketing pressure. He uses the round nose and semi round nose himself.

The best way to use a 375 (apart from just playing around with loads) is to pick a 270 or 300 grain bullet and load 82 and 78 grains of 760 repectively and use that load for everything from tin cans and sparrows up. The same bullet weights often shoot good with 2206. Use about 65 grains with 300s and 68 grains with 270s. This duplicates original Kynoch loads with about 2400 and 2600 f/s and similar recoil and noise with the light charge of quick powder. The original cordite loads were aqorund 60 grains.

If you do a lot of shooting with a 375 the difference in recoil becomes noticeable between these 2206 loads and slower powders.

One last point on light bullets in the 375. Quite often an accurate load with the light bullets will be a good grouper but inconsistent. They will often throw shots way out from clean barrels or barrels with cold hard fouling.

Mike

 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Another bullet to try is the 270 grain Speer boattail. My .375 likes this bullet a lot. As to powders, Hodgdon 4350 is excellent if your goal is maximum velocity with good accuracy. Hodgdon 4350 seems to me to be better than IMR 4350. IMR 4064 also works well with 270 gr. bullets. For primers, I recommend the Winchester WLR. I tried Federal 215 and Remington 9 1/2M (magnum) primers but they seem to produce poorer accuracy. In 300 gr. bullets, the Sierra boattail may be the most accurate one available. I have no experience hunting with it, however, so I cannot say how it performs or holds together on impact.

(There -- I finally used the word 'impact' in a way that I approve of. I hate hearing that word used for the effect of a policy on people, as in "That policy will have a great impact on this problem." I think 'impact' should be reserved for projectiles and for collisions of vehicles.)

 
Posts: 5883 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 11 March 2001Reply With Quote
<JohnT>
posted
Have just hit on a load of 68 or 72gn of AR2208 with the 235gn Speer bullets, in Win cases & using WLR primers. Shooting those loads in an indoor range at 50 metres both loads shoot less than 1/2 inch 3 shot groups in my Sako L691 in .375 H&H.

Will be loading some more and shooting at longer ranges to see how it shoots.

Interestingly, the 72gn load shoots to same point of impact as the Factory 270gn Failsafes at 50 metres.

 
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John,

You will find that those 2208 loads and 235 Sppers will have similar velocity to the factory rounds.

375s with good barrels (which your Sako will have) typically shoot loads of similar velocities to similar points of impact. They also give similar velocities with the same powder charge and different weight bullets.

The loads you are using for 2208 are about the range one would use for full loads with 270 and 300 grains.

If the 2208 is working well for you, it would pay you if you can to get some more of the same batch.

The ADI powders seem to vary and epsecially as to whether a particular batch will shoot.

If you go to the Hogdon website:

http://www.hodgdon.com/

The powders they list as "Extreme" are made by ADI.

The powders that have SC for short cut are our powders.

ADI claim the powders are exactly what we buy. This is probably true but does not always appear to be that way becuase of lot to lot variations.

If you can get a load of 2208 (Varget) to shoot in your 375 with 270 and 300 grainers, it will be right with Re 15 for velocity and accuracy, especially with 270 grain bullets.

However, Re 15 is more flexible and just seems to shoot with any batch and in any accurate 375.

Another powder that you might want to try (I have never used any) is the Vitavouri powders that have been imported by Custers. They make one powder (I can't remember the number) that is about like Re 15.

The other powder that will often do well in 375s is 2209 (H4350SC). It goes well with Hornady 300 Round Nose and Woodleigh round nose and semi point 300 grains. The 300 grain Spitzers and Barnes X are too long to get enough powder in.

A lot of 375 shooters use 2209 with 270 Hornady which often shoots extremely well but velocity is down because you can't gey enough powder in with that long bullet. About 2600 will be it without heavily compressed loads.

By the way, Hornady is now selling the 225 grain Spire point that they used for the factory loads in the 376 Steyr. This should be a good bullet as it was designed for light game in the smaller 376 Steyr caliber.

As of a few weeks ago, the agents for Hornadies (Herrons) had some of these bullets in stock.

Mike

 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
<JohnT>
posted
Mike375,

Thanks for your reply. I was most interested in your comment that certain loads will group but will not be consistent. I will be retesting my 235 gn speer loads.

Your comments about using a good 270gn load for everything makes a lot of sense. I wanted to work up a lighter load so that it would be a lot nicer to shoot a ot of rounds but the loads that shoot seem to be full power ones anyway & there is not a lot of difference in felt recoil between my loads & the factory 270gn loads.

Saw the Woodleighs at the SCI show but they did not have the .375 in stock. Who regularly stocks them in Sydney? Horsley are supposed to but I've never seen them there.

 
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John,

Call Kevin Webster at Sporting Agencies on 02 97484810 and tell him Mike McGuire said to call.

He will get stuff in for you and is very good to deal with.

The nicest Woodleighs are the semi pointed ones. Woodleigh advise that the semi point and round nose will expand better than the new proted point bullets they make.

Two other nice bullets in 375 are the 260 and 300 grain Noslers. These bullets have the right shape for 375. In fact their general profile is very similar to the original Winchester 270 grain Power Points and 300 Grain Silvertips. In fact, not unlike a longer version of the 235 grain Speer bullets.

Mike

 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike375:
The other powder that will often do well in 375s is 2209 (H4350SC). It goes well with Hornady 300 Round Nose and Woodleigh round nose and semi point 300 grains. The 300 grain Spitzers and Barnes X are too long to get enough powder in.

A lot of 375 shooters use 2209 with 270 Hornady which often shoots extremely well but velocity is down because you can't gey enough powder in with that long bullet. About 2600 will be it without heavily compressed loads.


If 2209 is the same as Hodgdon H4350, then you can get excellent results with 270 gr. bullets in the .375. I've found that 83 gr. of H4350 behind the Speer 270 gr. boattail bullet -- the top load listed for that bullet weight in Hodgdon's loading manual -- gives 2811 to 2822 f.p.s. in my .375 with a 24 inch barrel. This is a compressed charge, but so what?

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 04-16-2001).]

 
Posts: 5883 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 11 March 2001Reply With Quote
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LE270

Are you using H4350SC and if so how late a batch.

2209 is a very short grain powder. The grain diameter is almost the sdame as the length.

It has a burning rate very similar to IMR 4831.

Mike

 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike375:
LE270

Are you using H4350SC and if so how late a batch.

2209 is a very short grain powder. The grain diameter is almost the same as the length.

It has a burning rate very similar to IMR 4831.

Mike


As far as I can tell, Hodgdon does not list a H4350SC -- they have only H4350. (They do have a H4831SC as well as a H4831.) H4350 is not especially short grained, although its grains are not as long as, say, IMR4064. H4350 is supposed to have the same burning rate as IMR4350, but I think the Hodgdon powder is a bit slower. But I do not think H4350 is as slow as IMR4831.

I do not have a batch number for the H4350 that I have, but I got it within the past half-year from Graf & Sons.

 
Posts: 5883 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 11 March 2001Reply With Quote
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LE270,

The powder you are using sounds like the earlier version of 2209, which was also supposed to be sold as H4350.

The velocities you are getting for the powder charge are also about what you would get with the earlier version of 2209.

The burning rate was like IMR 4350, however velocity was usually higher in calibers/loads where a very full case was required.

For example, in the 270 the earlier version of 2209 would give similar velocities to IMR 4350 with say 130 and 150 grain bullets but was not as good when 100 and 110 grain bullets were used.

I am not 100% convinced that the Australian Defence Industry powders that we buy are the same as what Hogdon gets. I imagine Hodgdon buys very large lots of a particular batch.

In some ways we are worse off since our powder was made since it is so chaeap compared to imported Dupond or Reloader powders that it is not economib\cal viablew for importers to bring these other powders into Australia, except as an occassion on eof off batch.

The exception is Winchester powder which I belive Winchester Australia imports in bulk and the packages it in Australia and that is supported by the labeling on the tin.

I would like to know whether the Winchester brass we get is the same. Anyone out here who knows anything at all, will tell you in the last 10 years or so that Winchester brass is a bout as soft as plastic on a hot day. It also looks like it was made from brass door handles.

Yey Americans I have questioned don't share this view.

The old Winchester Super X brass use to have a bluish tinge around the solid head.

Just recently I bought 1000 375 Winchester cases and I noticed that they now look like that are made form brass door handles.

It must be the balance of nature at work.

We have countless animals to shoot and can shoot them until the barrel melts. On the other hand, you guys have all the components readily available.

Mike


 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike375:

The powder you are using sounds like the earlier version of 2209, which was also supposed to be sold as H4350.

The velocities you are getting for the powder charge are also about what you would get with the earlier version of 2209.


I found that both of us are right when I checked the Hodgdon website. They say there that H4350 has now been changed to an SC version. But they haven't changed the designation -- it's still H4350.

I also checked the H4350 that I have, and it looks to me as if it may indeed be the new SC version. I measured some granules; they measure about 0.04 inch in diameter, and 0.06 inch in length. The color of the powder I would describe as medium-dark gray with a tinge of brownishness.

 
Posts: 5883 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 11 March 2001Reply With Quote
<SnapDragon>
posted
I tried loading some 235 grain Speers the other day and had a bad time with the seating die plug grabbing onto the bullet and pulling it out of the case neck on the downstroke. Does RCBS make different shape plug or am I going to have to modify the one I have?
 
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Originally posted by SnapDragon:
I tried loading some 235 grain Speers the other day and had a bad time with the seating die plug grabbing onto the bullet and pulling it out of the case neck on the downstroke. Does RCBS make different shape plug or am I going to have to modify the one I have?

I had exactly this same problem seating 300 gr. Hornady full metal case bullets. I solved the problem by wadding up and stuffing paper into the seating plug so as to change its internal shape and dimensions. This worked. The only problem then was digging the heavily impacted and compressed paper out of the seating plug when I was finished.

Someone on one of these reloading discussion forums said that if I sent a sample bullet to RCBS (I was using RCBS dies) they'd supply me free with an appropriate seating plug for that bullet, plus return my bullet. But when I tried this, RCBS sent me a bill for about $12 before they'd send me the seating plug. I haven't yet taken them up on the offer.

 
Posts: 5883 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 11 March 2001Reply With Quote
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LE270,

I measured my 2209 and it is about .04" in diameter. I could not do lenght as I was too clumsy but it looks like the granukes are about 50% longer than their diameter.

I would have put 83 grains of it with a 270 grain bullet and 24 inch barrel at about 2700 f/s tops.

But you could have a tighter chamber and/or a quicker barrel and a faster batch of 2209, because it does vary.


Unquestionably the best powder I have used in the 375 when tested across several different rifles is Reloader 15 for the best combination of accurayc and velocity.

Although Win 760 and IMR 4064 will often give it a good run in the accuracy area.

Mike


 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
<JohnT>
posted
Mike,

Called Tobler today, they will not be getting Reloader 15 for another 2 months or so but it is on order. Will persist with AR powders for now. Thanks for the contact on the Woodleighs.

Have you ever tried IMR SR4759 for reduced loads on .375 H&H and where can you get some in Sydney?

I also checked out the Woodleigh web site. The BC of the semi point bullets are better that the pointy protected point bullets of the same weight. That is totally the opposite of what I would expect. Why bother with a pointy bullet then?

Did I read it right that you bought a thousand cases of Win Brass. I bought 150 and thought that was a lot! You must have a shoulder made of iron. 30 rounds on a bench is about the limit for me.

Regards,
John

 
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<JohnT>
posted
Snapdragon,

I use the Hornady Custom Die set with the optional micrometer seating attachment. The plug is flat so no way for the bullet to get stuck and the bullets is aligned by a sliding sleeve. The micrometer make adjustment a breeze.

Only problem with the Hornady dies is with the sizer die. Because the stem is held just by a friction fit unless you tighten the nut really (& I mean really tight) the neck expander stem gets pulled out on the upstroke. Good thing is that you don't need a stuck case remover since you can push out the case from the die.

I'm sure you could get the seater die for less than $12 in the States. My 2 die set cost me $24 from Midway.

 
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John,

You read right 1000 cases.

Th only person I know of who has Dupont from time to time is Bruce Brown in Canberra. I will get his number for you asa mate of mine has just ordered 5 8 pound kegs of IMR 7828 which is due in a couple of months.

I have never tried them but perhaps some of the ADI pistol and shotgun powders will be OK. If they are ball powders then they would probably be a waste of time. If stick or flake then they will probaly perform like the Dupont powder. That is , they will be very bulky. For example, a 308 will only hold abiut 25 grains of some of the Hercules/Alliant powders like Green Dot etc.

Another one that can be good for midrange to quite powerful is 2207.

Sometime in the next wek or so I am taking a 375 up to Silverdale range to work up some loads for that Keving Webster at Sporting Agencies with 220 Hornady and 2207.

As I said before I would not worry about ballistic coefficient too much. Some of those real pointed bullets seem to get a bit sideways and lose ballistic coefficient...I think.

Target shooters are different since they are using twists that are as slow as possible for the bullet in question.

I have shot my share of 270 Hornady Spire and Round nose and I am still waiting to see the extra ballistic coefficient cut in. In fact I sometimes think the round nose is higher.

Mike

 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
<JohnT>
posted
Mike,

Be very interested how you go with the Hornady 220gn & AR2207. I understand that they have a chronograph at the Silverdale range?

Can confirm that the 68gn and 72gn loads with 235 gn Speers are accurate in my rifle with the 72gn full power load more accurate(.8 vs .5 at 50 metres). But they still don't beat the 270 gn Factory Failsafes & it may be physcological but I find the 270gn load nicer to shoot. The jolt is not as sharp, although I assume that they are full pressure loads.

Regards,
JohnT

 
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John,

It is quite common for the recoil to be a bit heavier with lighter bullets and especially with the ADI powders.

It can vary a bit with the load as it appears to be related to combustion. You will often find the load that is down from maximum (which your is with 2208 and 235s) has a heavy boom to it and you seem to get more rocket effect.

The powder I have in my failafe ammo looks like non canisterd 4320. Winchester use to use 4064 for 270 grain power point loads.

Dupondt powder still seems to be the best powder when it comes to blast and recoil when compared to the AFI and Reloader powders.

Mike

 
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Have you checked runout with a concentrity gauge? I have two 375's a Sako Safari and a Kimber and use use a separate set of Redding dies for each. I almost pull my hair out trying to seat bullets with acceptable runout. About the time I think I have the dies set to give me .003 or less, I'll begin to see rounds with .010 to .015 - these will definately be big time flyers! I don't know about the rest of the reloaders here, but I seem to have terrible time seating the big bullets (This happens with my Rigby bullets also). I'm about ready to get a reamer and make my own Wilson-type die and seat these in my K&M arbor press.

Hope this helps,

 
Posts: 1147 | Location: Ohio USA | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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