THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM CAST BULLET FORUM


Moderators: Paul H
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Let's talk gas checks
 Login/Join
 
one of us
Picture of Pa.Frank
posted
I've been considering adding gas check to some of my plain base cast bullets (pistol calibers only)

I'll use a Lyman 450 to seat the checks..

Does anyone have any experience with the aluminum gas checks made specifically for plain base bullets?
Problems seating? problems shooting? whatever... thanks


NRA Benefactor.

Life is tough... It's even tougher when you're stupid... John Wayne
 
Posts: 1957 | Location: The Three Lower Counties (Delaware USA) | Registered: 13 September 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
they help in a couple of ways, but they ain't quite the same as a properly designed gas check shank.
 
Posts: 4962 | Location: soda springs,id | Registered: 02 April 2008Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I have came to the opinion that gas checks serve no purpose. I can shoot my gas checked designed bullets with no gas check and not be able to tell any difference in accuracy or leading or how clean my bore stays. Melt the base of a bullet--yea right. You can't melt lead with a fast pass of a cutting torch and your pass with a torch is many many times slower than the time the bullet is exposed to heat.
 
Posts: 3797 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of eagle27
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by carpetman1:
I have came to the opinion that gas checks serve no purpose. I can shoot my gas checked designed bullets with no gas check and not be able to tell any difference in accuracy or leading or how clean my bore stays. Melt the base of a bullet--yea right. You can't melt lead with a fast pass of a cutting torch and your pass with a torch is many many times slower than the time the bullet is exposed to heat.


I beg to differ. My 404 will just not group plain based bullets cast from a Hoch nose pour mould, so perfect bases.
I have seen small splatters of lead around the outside of the case necks when shooting the bullets plain base. Entirely different story when I put a shoulder on the plain base bullets seat and crimp on a gas check. Hole touching groups at 50m and no sign of any lead melt. A bullet is contained in a case within a chamber where the intense powder flame is concentrated under pressure, nothing like a gas torch out in the open. I know what I have seen.

I have read posts here on AR where some shooters of the bigger bore cast bullets have had no luck with shooting plain based but get good results with a gas check so while some get good results shooting plain based or GC designed bullets without checks, that doesn't hold true in every case.

The OP doesn't state why he is considering using GC on some pistol bullets, if accuracy and no leading is obtained without checks then no reason to use them but each to his own.
 
Posts: 3827 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Eagle--not to flame with you--Recover a cast bullet and the lube is still on it. If it were getting hot enough for ANY melting of the bullet, the lube would certainly melt and be slung off at the rpm bullets spin.
 
Posts: 3797 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of eagle27
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by carpetman1:
Eagle--not to flame with you--Recover a cast bullet and the lube is still on it. If it were getting hot enough for ANY melting of the bullet, the lube would certainly melt and be slung off at the rpm bullets spin.


I have recovered quite a few lead bullets in calibres 7mm, 404 and 45 (the latter from a revolver) but they have never had lube left but that is not overly scientific as I suppose it depends on what media they are fired into and possible what lube is used. In my case usually a sand and dirt backstop at the range is the backstop, I've never recovered a cast bullet from game to see be able to see what, if anything, was left on it.

I know others have written that it is impossible to melt the lead base of cast bullets when fired but I can only relate to what I have observed with my own eyes. I have observed the base of the fired 404 bullets when shot plain based and they are quite rough compared with the perfectly flat and shiny base as cast.
I have tried quite a few different loads with my 404 from small charges of fast burning shotgun/pistol powder to reduced charges of normal rifle powders and I get absolutely no grouping with any combination when the bullet is used plain based. I have a setup for turning a gas check shoulder on the bullet base, so can pop on a 44cal Hornady gas check, run through my Lyman 450 lube/sizer and get perfectly consistent grouping with no leading. This phenomenon also happens with bullets cast for me by another AR member in my own mold and his lead alloys i.e. it is not just my lead alloy that causes the problem. The gas check is the key to performance for my 404 rifle.
 
Posts: 3827 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I have seen it both ways as far as accuracy goes.

The biggest difference was in my 44mag hard cast 315gr loads.

Without gas checks around a 3 inch groups with gas checks a lot of ragged hole groups.

So I use gas checks with them.

So the only real way to know is try them and see.
 
Posts: 19314 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I have lots of experience with what you are talking about. Some people call them Freechecks. You make the discs out of soda or beer cans. I also use a Lyman luber/sizer to install the check, lube, and size the bullet. The original way to do it was you machines the top of the sizer die to accept the disc. You cut it precisely so there is no movement. Then you had to make a washer that fit snug inside the sizer die retaining nut. This washer has a hole in it that is the exact size of the bullet you are going to check, lube, and size. My way is I make that washer and I cut the disc retaining portion on the bottom of it. A touch of lube is sufficient to hold the disc in while placing the washer on top the die. I also put a radius on the mouth of the die and polish it so there is less resistance of disc forming and entering the die. I have been shooting these for decades almost exclusively for pistol and revolver cartridges. No reason why you can't use them for flat base rifle bullets. You haven't asked, but the are good for up to 2200 fps. They aren't as tough as regular gas checks you buy.

Here's a pic of that washer with the recess in the bottom:



Next is a pic of the disc in the recess:



Next the disc alongside the washer (top view):



Next is a cast 10mm hollow point that has been fired and the check is made from a soda can. This shows you they stay on pretty good:

 
Posts: 662 | Registered: 15 May 2018Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Fury01
posted Hide Post
Lot's of different experiences with Gas checks is consistant with the full experience with Cast bullets. It is far more and Art than a science. Having said that, there are some fairly solid science things about shooting cast. Too small, Too soft, Too hard, Too fast and the questions forming in your mind all lead us back to the Art part of the story.
My version is that Copper GC greatly assist in these cases:
44 mag heavy loaded 300 + grain bullets. 35 Whelen 290 grain heavy loaded bullets, 458 win mag 425 to 485 1750 FPS to 1900 Fps loaded. Maybe it's just that the GC makes every base the same for the powder induced Gas column to work on...don't know for certain. Adding Dacron filler to the Whelen and 458 improved both as well so again we are back to the Art. Good news that the Free Check is something to tinker with and can't hurt to try. Enjoy and let us know!


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Fury01
posted Hide Post
BTW: Only recovered on Cast bullet out of a game animal and it was a 44 mag 250 Keith bullet plain base over a midrange load of Blue dot. Cow elk, broke both front shoulders and was found under the skin on the far side. No lube was left on the bullet. All the rest of my cast bullets used on Game have been complete pass through's, returning their minerals to the ground from which they came, as I am big on Recycling.
I recover quite a few bullets out of my wood backstop, intermingled with old tires and there is never any lube on those either. I also recycle these into the alloy can. Smiler


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Lube can and often will remain on a bullet. If you check the lube groove of the GC bullet on Vzerone's post above you'll see plenty in the groove.
 
Posts: 531 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: 01 January 2010Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Fury01
posted Hide Post
Jerry,
Yes I have seen many of my 38 specials and 45 acp retain lube after recovering them in the target base. I just haven't on my rifles as of yet. I am sure they do retain lube until they exit the barrel because my entire lube program is to ensure that they do! Lube stars at the muzzle is a happy thing so I add lube until my fouling is soft and "lube-ie all the way to the end of the barrel.
Also as mentioned, I think my target butt probably wipes the last bits off when hit at rifle speeds. I also know that no amount of anecdotal data creates an "always" or "never" in the cast bullet world.
Best regards,


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Rifle bullets have less of a chance or retaining the lube because they spin at a much higher rpm. I don't think that revolver/pistol bullets have enough spin to really fling off the lube although rounds such as 9mm and 30 Luger for example have very fast twists, but not sure the velocity is enough. If you're thinking all the lube is going to come out of the lube groove and coast the bore while the bullet is in the barrel...you're wrong. A lube star also depends upon how vicious your lube is among other things.
 
Posts: 662 | Registered: 15 May 2018Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of NormanConquest
posted Hide Post
I use gas checks on the majority of my rifle calibres but not on my pistols.In the case of my 44 mag. I just use linotype.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 17357 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
new member
Picture of Wallacem
posted Hide Post
I use the alum checks on my plain base bullets. I cant say that I can tell a big difference, except I seem to have less lesding. I have seen a lot of discussion on the matter and believe they work. Wallacem in Ga
 
Posts: 4 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 21 May 2010Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Bill/Oregon
posted Hide Post
This scarcely counts as research, but Georgeld graciously sent me some heavies from the Lee 452-300RF mold to play with in the Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt. Tiny sample, but I loaded five with gas checks over 9 grains of Universal and five without. I'll be interested to see if there is any difference in how they shoot. This is a mild load, and I will probably move on up to heavy loads with H-110, which may show more of a difference. This slug has a huge meplat, and weighs 323 grains with GC. At 1,000-1,100, I suspect it would let the air out of a bunch of the larger critters.
The gas checks are Gators, from Sage Outdoors.


There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t.
– John Green, author
 
Posts: 16306 | Location: Sweetwater, TX | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of NormanConquest
posted Hide Post
Looking forward to your report Bill.So if I get this right,you are firing 5 w/ GC + 5 w/o but still having rebated bases. I know,should make no difference but I am a glutton for abstract knowledge.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 17357 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Bill/Oregon
posted Hide Post
That's right, Randy. We'll see. Hope to shoot these in the next couple of days.

fullsizeoutput_1161 by ComeWatson, on Flickr


There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t.
– John Green, author
 
Posts: 16306 | Location: Sweetwater, TX | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of NormanConquest
posted Hide Post
Nice pistol as well Bill.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 17357 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


Copyright December 1997-2023 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia