I am getting a 470 NE double rifle which I won on Holtls auctions.

I am new to casting lead bullets. I have been reloading for 25 years.

I have a good friend in the US who is very experienced with double rifles & he is giving me some help by email.

Here is what I have done so far

1. I have bought the Lyman book on cast bullets - it should be here in 2 days.
2. I have found 2 Lee bullet moulds - 325 gr gas checked & 400 gr without GC. I can buy those any time - I need to decide.
3. To keep it simple for light practice loads I can shoot 325gr or 400 gr pistol bullets
4. Even with cast bullets - one advise is to just hand lube the bullets in a tray and not bother sizing. I would need to use backing fibre wad & card under the bullet
5. I have an eye on on a Lyman 450 lube press that I could buy
6. I have found the 476 cal RCBS lube sizing die
7. I do not know what top punch to get - may be the Lyman book will solve that mystery.
8. I have found a source of 476 gas checks here in NZ - $75 for 1000

Here are the decisions to be made

1. Should I bother with sizing & gas check at all? Or Should I just hand lube and shoot with card backed wad like my friend suggested?
2. Should I buy the Lyman 450 sizing press & sizing die?
3. What is the right top punch?

I would appreciate any help.

I realise the risk of damaging the rifle if I use card / wad and not seat the bullets correctly.

Might not be much help, nut I load mine with 425 gr bullets cast by a local guy, I don't size them, lube in a tray and don't use gas checks, I use Trail Boss powder and keep velocities very mild at about 1200-1300 fps. When I want to step up velocity on practice loads I use Speer .475 Deep Curl pistol bullets (275 gr) and shoot them at normal or slightly above .470 NE velocity.
Good luck!

The Lyman sizer/luber and the RCBS sizer/luber are identical in operation. The RCBS seems to hold pressure better and offers the GREAT RCBS warranty if problems ever arise. The older RCBS used a ratchet to feed the lube and the newer ones use a toggle handle. I much prefer the ratchet and the newer can be converted. It is not as simple as changing the bolt. The bolt has to me modified to accept the ratchet.

I have came to the conclusion that gas checks are a complete waste of money. I have molds designed for gas checks and have shot the bullets without gas checks and can not tell one bit of difference.

Getting the Lyman manual is a great start.

Lee molds are ok, but I find spending a few extra $$ and get an RCBS mold is a worthwhile deal. You will know which top punch to get for it.

I would size and lube in the lubers mentioned and leave off the gas check or even better yet buy a plain based mold to begin with.

One thing I'll add to the Lyman Manual. They talk about making Lyman #1 etc. They start out with 90% wheelweights, which are really an unknown, then add exact precision amounts to this 90% unknown and come up with an exact. Sounds to me some one is trying to make rocket science out of what isn't rocket science. Get wheelweights and use as is and it's as good as it will get. Some say add tin--a waste of money as is is fine.

What kind of wad to use. Where can I get it?

Naki,
This is the best place to learn about casting bullets.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
They are very helpful. Brian

cast boolits---hell they can't even spell bullet. It's like a sign that says backhole work when they are talking about a backhoe. And they have bumper stickers with castboolits---people think what idiots. Seriously there are some good folks there and some not so good. Knowledge base just as good here.

I have a Lee 476/400 gr 2 cavity mold. Compared to many other molds it doesn't seem like it would be avery good mold. But it throws great bullets ! Of a very useful weight and shape.
Learning to cast good boolits has some curves to it. And like reloading. It can be done well without a huge overhead . Or you can go all in with all the top of the line everything.
I also have some Mihec molds. They are VERY nice molds. But still all they do is make a boolit.

For the cost, the Lee 2 cavity molds are the best value out there. Have you thought about powder coating your boolits. RIP has a bit of a tutorial on it in the 458 Winchester thread. Imho it's worth a read.

try powder coating... far better then lubing, and get a plain base bullet that is powder coated, it works as well as a GC in protecting the base of the bullet

Daniel

Thanks guys.

I found the Lee moulds for 325 GC & the 400 gr here in NZ.

The cost is US$30 each, which is cheaper than trying to import with shipping costs.

I found 12mm leather punch on Alibaba and got 3 for a few dollars. Now I need to find fibre material or felt. I have already found 12mm thick cork sheets.

I have also found good quality felt - 12.5 mm thick - that is used for gaskets etc. Suggested by a black powder gunsmith here in NZ. Expensive stuff but I got an off cut for $50.

I'll preface my response with the fact that I haven't loaded for a double rifle but my understanding from those that have tried is that it is difficult to get them to regulate with cast bullets, a whole lot harder than jacketed. So you might want to do more research before spending up big on equipment.

If it were me I'd probably start with a bullet that had a similar weight and shape to the regulation bullet.

If you wanted to simplify your handling I'd look at paper patching and use an adjustable weight mould. I'm sure CBE in Oz could make something suitable. This way you can tweak the weight depending on your alloy and won't need to use a GC or a lubesizer if you specify the right diameter and bullet shape. If you did want to size bullets and add a GC you could order a sizing die from Lee and use your regular loading press. I think NOE also makes a special 7/8"X14 sizing die with separate inserts.

Regarding your question on sizing, you can avoid sizing if the as cast diameter is suitable - ie if it's 2-3 thou over the groove diameter (and chambers freely). Also, a double rifle is in effect two rifles, so you would need to slug both barrels to determine the barrel dimensions.

Regarding case fillers, I'd be very cautious with a double as there are a lot of examples of ringed chambers when using case fillers. Kynoch use case fillers and you can google up what they supply. They look like lightweight expanded foam wads. You should be able to source suitable material locally and wad punches are easy to acquire.

Good luck and keep us posted.

carpetman1,
That's interesting because I came across some real jerks at Cast Boolits too and I don't go over there much any more. I thought it might be just me so I didn't mention it. ( I make friends where ever I go!)
I still think that Naki would do well with them.
They helped me with a lot of esoteric lead mixtures.

Naki, the lyman book is A-1 too. Also, I could be of more help but I made all the .585 bullets that I will ever need and so I just stopped casting and am focused on boutique bullets like CEB. Now I have forgotten most of the the little that I learned about casting.

Casting is great hobby and it is easier that much of the stuff you already do with guns. I will look in my file and see if I can find anything that is useful. Brian

Naki, here is a good place. You have to dig out the casting section.
www.lasc.us
Brian

In loading my cast rifle loads I use 5744 powder.You can call their 1 800 # on the can + speak to the ballistician + tell what you are wanting to load using their powder + he will give you the data almost immediately.I would have to look through my records as to what I loaded for my 470 NE,but one phone call will tell you what you need to know.

Thanks guys. Much appreciated.

I have made contact with a gunsmith & dealer who specialises in black powder rifles & pistols. He has been very helpful.

The Lyman cast bullet book has arrived.

I went to a local engineering supplies business who service very old British machines with leather pistons, gaskets, washers etc.

I got some 16mm felt from them. Very expensive stuff - I had to pay $20 for a 65mm X 650mm piece that will give me 200 wads.

Perfect!

I will second the 5744. No wads, fillers or spacers needed and with the 400 grain slugs I use my verney regulates well out to 75 yards.

.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
I will second the 5744. No wads, fillers or spacers needed and with the 400 grain slugs I use my verney regulates well out to 75 yards.

.

Agree using a powder where no fillers or wads are needed. Looking at load data recommended for 5744 it is just replicating light powder charges and lower velocities for cast bullets that are commonly achieved with other shotgun or pistol powders. It seems 5744 is in the same burn range as Red Dot, Unique etc.

For Naki loading his 470NE to the 1300 - 1500 fps velocity range Vectan AS which I have endorsed earlier will be much easier and cheaper to acquire.
Naki, Gunworks advertise Vectan AS often on TradeMe and probably have it in stock. If you didn't live in the wrong Island I would send you some to try

The Beaver Grease (aka the Cast Bullet Kid) used to sell bags of wool wads for over powder in cast loads where a filler may be needed but I don't see them advertised on his site anymore. I use one of these wads over reduced loads of AR2209 (H4350) with cast bullets in my 404 when getting velocities up around 1800fps. There were about 3 different sized wads in a big bag full (cheap too) and they were similar in density to felt. Burned clean in the barrel but smelt like burning hair and a small puff of smoke when fired, all part of the NE experience .

Eagle27

Do you know if 5744 is available in NZ? Cannot see it on Guncity website.

I checked the NZ Ammo company website but no luck.

Paid for 2 lee moulds - 325gr GC & 400 gr.

Does anyone know where I can get the right kind of Wheel weight lead.

It looks the old lead type WW is not easy to find.

What kind of lead are the NZ guys using for bullets?

I was hoping to just use WW and keep it simple.

We used to get them at any tire center but word was that our last President "outlawed" them + replaced with some other pot metal weights. WW 's are great for casting as they already have the correct amount of antimony in the lead. As to using a filler in the large cases I just go to the hobby/crafts store + buy a large bag of holo-fil pillow + doll stuffing.A $5.00 bag should last you the rest of your life.

FWIW 5744 has a burn rate closer to H4198/ Reloader 7.

It's a bulky, easy to ignite powder, like a slow burning version of Trailboss.

I see different opinions on 5744's burn rate. It's a little slower then Unique, Herco, BlueDot, and 2400.

Accurate 5744 is an extremely fast burning, double-base, extruded powder. This unique powder can be used in a wide range of rifle calibers and magnum handguns. 5744 is characterized by excellent ignition and consistency over a very wide performance range. Low bulky density and superior ignition characteristics make 5744 an excellent choice for reduced loads in many rifle calibers and in large capacity black powder cartridges such as the 45-70 through 45-120 and 50-90 through 50-120. Made in Canada.

Here's Accurate's Burn Rate Chart link:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/...10/12/burn_rates.pdf

Vince

I'd be very careful of the Dacron type filler especially in straight walled cartridge. They have been known to ring chambers, again in straight walled cartridges. I'd find a powder that doesn't need a filler.

Don't believe the false information from the so called x-spurt over on Assboolit forum. Carpetman is right what he says about them.

Vince

vzerone,
Yes, there sure are some jerks over there. But,to be fair, some guys really helped me.

I have been reading the huge threads on double rifle bullets my michael458 & Sam. Lots of great info there. I am also corresponding with Sam.

I have a few questions - just getting opinions of how many options are there.

1. Should I use the case mouth flaring die (475 Linebaugh) - will it work well?
2. Can I use the 475 Linebaugh taper crimp die - particularly on lead loads to get rid of the case mouth flare before chambering the ammo.
3. Wads - should all the air space be filled by wads? Can I use 2 wads (16mm X 2 = 1.25inch) and card on top? I am concerned that a small wad and space under bullet may act like an obstruction in the chamber & damage to the rifle.

I do realise that double rifle ammo should drop into the chamber like shotgun ammo. One should not crush fir them in tha chamber like it can sometimes happen in a bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Eagle27

Do you know if 5744 is available in NZ? Cannot see it on Guncity website.

I checked the NZ Ammo company website but no luck.

No I have not seen this powder for sale here. I put you wrong a bit on Vectan AS powder at Gunworks, they won't ship powder between the Islands but there must be someone up in the North Island that has it in stock. Unique is also a good if not a little dirty burning powder for light cast loads and that's usually readily available throughout NZ.
I've got a good supply of AS powder, bought cheap off TradeMe a while back and picked up when passing through Christchurch. Also got some Unique left from earlier casting days.

Yes is harder to find the old style wheel weights anymore and linotype pretty well not used now in the digital age. Worthwhile asking around a few garages or transport companies who have their own tyre workshop.

Company called DLM up in Auckland do castings and will make Lyman #2 casting alloy in 5kg ingots but minimum order is 100kg. They might have some left over stock left, I did see them advertising some on TradeMe quite a while ago.
Was some ingots of lead for sale on TradeMe only recently, freight is the killer for lead though.

The casting lead I have in stock now came from melting down some lead shot that I didn't need any more and adding a bit of pewter from a couple of old cups I had to hand to get some tin into the alloy. Tin helps with the lead flow to fill out the mould properly.

If you shoot on a private range you could collect your spent bullets and melt them down again to keep up your supply.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
vzerone,
Yes, there sure are some jerks over there. But,to be fair, some guys really helped me.

There are a few knowledgeable people there, but they usually don't post much because of all the crap going on. The Administration has everyone throttled, plus they are protecting their golden boy Larry Gibson who runs off every and anyone that challenges his phony theories or even tries to debate with him and then has the Administration ban them.

Thanks for the heads-up. I actually haven't been on there since I got cross threaded with someone in the summer of 2016 so my comments are way out of date. Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have been reading the huge threads on double rifle bullets my michael458 & Sam. Lots of great info there. I am also corresponding with Sam.

I have a few questions - just getting opinions of how many options are there.

1. Should I use the case mouth flaring die (475 Linebaugh) - will it work well?
2. Can I use the 475 Linebaugh taper crimp die - particularly on lead loads to get rid of the case mouth flare before chambering the ammo.
3. Wads - should all the air space be filled by wads? Can I use 2 wads (16mm X 2 = 1.25inch) and card on top? I am concerned that a small wad and space under bullet may act like an obstruction in the chamber & damage to the rifle.

I do realise that double rifle ammo should drop into the chamber like shotgun ammo. One should not crush fir them in tha chamber like it can sometimes happen in a bolt rifle.

1. I use my now spare 45ACP case mouth flaring die for my 404, just turned down the spigot slightly to enter the sized case mouth and adjusted the die so the flare is achieved with the case insertion into the die stopped by the shoulder i.e. the case only enters the die to about half way up shoulder taking care to just feel the flaring occur as I work the press handle. Any spigot and flare unit larger than your 470 case mouth could be turned down to work in a similar fashion or you could have one made if need be, they're a pretty simple setup.

2. Don't need to crimp cast loads, if the bullets are at or slightly over bore they will have adequate neck tension in the case. If your dies are made properly the bullet seating die will iron out the flare. My RCBS seating die does this perfectly for the 404. Seating dies should support the case neck and mirror the chamber dimension so that loaded cartridges will always fit the chamber as far as the bullet and neck area goes.

3. To prevent ringing the chamber the knowledgeable guys say there should be no air space between bullet base and powder. I don't really understand what this chamber ringing thing is but bow to others who have experience of it. I seat one wool wad on top of a load of 63.0grs AR2209 (H4350) in the 404 and there is an air gap to the base of the bullet but have never seen any problem. I use the wad because without one I can get ever so slightly delayed ignition even with a magnum primer. My chamber has a lot of freebore so maybe this obviates any chance of ringing the chamber i.e. the bullet moves off a way before hitting the bore. Another 404 user with this same load did not use a wad and had no ignition problem.
They say chamber ringing is most likely to happen with straight cases.
With the shotgun powder loads wads are never needed as these powders ignite easily with standard primers even with the small charge just laying along the bottom of the case. I get very uniform velocities and accuracy so the combination works well.

I got the moulds and the dies arrived. Also Woodleigh softs.

I have some Re15 about half lbs. I also have 1 kg each of N160 & N560 and half used cans as well. If these work well in the rifel, I do not need to spend anything on MR4831! Also the regular AR 2208 & 2209.

I am still awaiting the wad punch from china.

The import permit was sent off to Holt's last week.

H4227 maybe called AR2207 or some such may work well for you, at least for at least for the practice loads of which you speak. I have never seen loads for that cartridge so am unsure what more to say except stay away from 4832 unless sit is in a book or someone you REALLY trust gives you a load with it.

I would not bother with the 325 gas check at first and just see if you can get the 400 plain base to shoot for ya. 17.5 of those big boys per pound or 38 per kg.

Depending on your wheel weights I am going to assume a bhn of about 14.5.

I have found that there are those that can be quite contrary at times or all the time on every site, but the the cast link that you were supplied will be a very good source of information for ya.

First casting went well as I have posted on the other thread.





I need to know what sizing tools I need. Very frustrating on the web. Not much for the 476 cal lead bullets. RCBS make sizing dies but it is not clear if they only work with their own lubing sizing press. Lee and Lyman do not have 476 cal dies.

I did find NOE with the bushing sizer die for use on my single stage presses. Not sure if they will ship to NZ.

RCBS and Lyman sizing dies are interchangeable i.e. both work in each others lube/sizer.

You could purchase any Lyman sizing die and have it opened up to suit the bullet size you want, they are all obviously the same outside dimension. If opening out a die also need a larger insert rod made but that is just a straight forward piece of shaft.

Gunworks has some Lyman H&I dies for sale on TradeMe that could be opened out. Robbie may even do that for you if you cant get a correct sized one.

Thanks Mate.

I am awaiting reply from NOE. I like this system. I may even get a 9.3 cal bushing!

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/i...hp?cPath=564_104_410

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/p...479&products_id=3721

I have asked Gunworks as well.

cheers

I had a set of moulds made for my 470 years ago before I sold it along the lines of moulds that I had bought from Veral Smith. I.E. a 2 cavity mould w/ the 1st cavity only for the frontal agive.The second cavity was the complete bullet. The process was to cast X amounts of 'tips' using pig lead + then inserting the tips into the other cavity + fill w/ your W/W or your choice of mixture.(I used linotype for the backer).You now have a solid w/ an expanding point. I used it with great success in my 7X57 but never hunted with it in the 470 N.E. The gent that bought the rifle bought the moulds as well.I have found it an interesting concept.

sorry;ogive...I wish folks would not talk to me when I'm trying to write about things so mundane as "Are you going to fix dinner?"

Powdercoated 20 bullets as a trial. I got 1 kg free sample from the Rep.
This is the first coat and 30 min at 400F (20 min metal temp according to the Rep.


This is after the second coat.



Adhesion seems to be good. I should probably do a hammer test. Hammer test was surprisingly successful - similar to Youtube clips. The PC does scrape off if cut firmly with a box cutter knife. No flaking, wrinkling etc with hammer blows.

N
The first coat looks normal and the seconds coat looks pretty good ..i dont think you will have issues, just need to size them now

im not sure why you have got bare spots on your coated bullets...i coat all my bullets nose down so there are no bare spots from bullets touching each other

Daniel

Thanks Daniel

I am using a mesh tray that I made up and it jerks around when I put it in the oven. I'll try the tray with baking paper & see how that works.

I got the sizer yesterday and sized up a few. Required some effort on the first one. So I used Imperial was - very little - and that was a bit easier. Still need some effort compared to sizing cases.