BANG, Bang, Bang - I just shot it!!!

Amen!!
bang bang.. We' all just pretended to back you up so we could get our picture taken with it too and maybe get a replica for our trophy rooms!

I hope you WERE just giving me permission to shoot it? Right?

One thing Kevin.
Not cool to sound like " Oh, no wonder lots of PH's stay away from this site "
The ones that do that, have maybe too many skeletons in closet?
Again, you're the expert, but it doesn't give you right to spend other's people/hunters money
Pretty simple outlook.
Like I said before, without average Joe ( especially American Joe ) , African hunting industry is simply toast
My pretty simple view as that " American average Joe "
One more question here.
Why is it that once you become well known ( not Kevin, just in general ) that you look down upon this site and their members as an uneducated Cro' magnons ?
Lots of guys on this site are probably better hunters in their own right then the so called experts/PH's in Africa

What I see of this is that it is somewhat analogous of the lion issue. You can take as many 12+ year old buffalo or 6+ lion and it will have no impact on the population. Similarly, if you set your quota low enough, it doesn't matter how old the individual animal is from a population standpoint.

The ideal would be to convince everyone that a 12 year old is the ideal trophy, but let's face it, a trophy is in the eyes of the hunter, and we can't really "dictate" what one likes, especially since traditionally width is the basis of trophy quality (heck the RW record is a cow...) This would place the onus on the outfitter and PH as to what they will allow the hunter to shoot, and will likely cause issues when a hunt is unsuccessful but a bull that the client found acceptable was vetoed.

I have shot enough buffalo that I personally am ok with turning down a 45" slightly soft bull, but I also know I would not have felt that way 10 or so buffalo ago.

I think that we are going to have to see wild buffalo quotas drop, and thus the price of a buffalo hunt go up, and that controlled herds (game farms) may actually become the cheaper option again, with a pay by size system in place.

This is an interesting discussion. I know nothing on when buffalo become mature enough too breed. But there have been several studies on white tails,sheep,elk that say a majority are bred by younger animals. Reason being you've got the mature animals trying too keep other males away from the female that's in season,and some young stud slides in while the mature males are trying too push each other out of the way.

The day some nut in the game department decides to make a 12 year old rule for buffalo, will be the day I stop hunting them.

And I suspect the majority of buffalo hunters will do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:
I'm amazed people don't draw the exact analogy between say Whitetails, Elk, and Sheep!
You mean to tell me I'm (or anyone) are on a hunt for free ranging Whitetail and i run across a mature 4.5 yr old+ 200" world class absolute buck of 5 lifetimes and I'm supposed to NOT shoot it for the sole purpose that the trophy of a lifetime should be allowed to pass on its genetics (that oh by the way have already been passed on AND existed in the herd to begin with)

...or elephant. Are we supposed to pass up a 75 pound elephant today because in 10-15 years time he might be what USED to be a 100 pounder when he breaks off his tusks?

So they don't start breeding until they are 8 , I guess this young fellow wasn't sent the memo

For those of you who have hunted and killed dozens of buffalo, I see your point and I envy you. For those of us who may just get to hunt buffalo once or maybe twice in our lifetimes, there is no way I would pass up that bull. If that makes me a dirtbag I'm sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I suspect the gist of Kevin's post is simply about awareness and to a certain degree an education. The difficulty is to implement it over a 7 day period.

If it advantageous to our sport then I am all ears.

Exactly!

I would also add that I would take Kevin's word any time of day against any so called "professor" doing any sort of "research"on buffalo sitting behind a university desk.

Saeed, they are not doing their work behind a desk at A&M, but in the field in Africa!

..................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Saeed, they are not doing their work behind a desk at A&M, but in the field in Africa!

Generally, when it comes to hard sciences, I lay odds that the Ph.D. knows his shit.

Kevin. Thanks so much for posting and stimulating a good discussion. Hope you don't take some of the comments personally but as reprensentative of a broad set of opinions on a complex issue. And I hope you have some effect on the measuring methods vis a vis SCI and encouraging soft boss bulls being taken. Hope to see some more of your great buffalo pictures on the site. For those interested in some scientific studies on buffalo in Kruger check out Brianna Beechler from Oregon State and her PhD on Rift Valley Fever and also some data on 200 collared buffalo in Kruger Park.

Good morning Jerry Huffaker.
The bull in the picture you posted looks to me to be in his 7 th yrs and pretty similar age and physical characteristics wise to the second bull Mike70560 posted. His lack of really heavy muscling in the neck and shoulder area, and 'young' face is very evident. FYI this is what I had to say about Mike's bull - so maybe he was sent the memo! It was just his lucky day!

Bull no. 2. This bull is late in his 7 th year. I say this because his horn tips are still sharp and above boss level. Boss hard on top but still soft and 'puffy' along the bottom edge towards the center line. Also his face just looks 'young' and he is not heavily muscled yet, like we see on active breeding bulls. In my opinion he is a pre-breeder. But having said this, in areas where all the breeding bulls have been shot out, (and there certainly are such areas) and where there are no other breeders to 'put him in his place' if he tries to get lucky, he will most definitely breed because he is sexually mature. He just lacks the secondary sexual characteristics of a true breeder.

I'm currently assisting with a trophy size evaluation of the buffalo in this area. All the herds are video'd as they come to drink and then the ecologist and I sit and review the footage - stopping at each bull identified to estimate his size and age if possible. This is slow laborious work but we sure get to see and evaluate a lot of buffalo bulls. What is very noticeable is how scarce bulls in the 40 inch plus bracket really are. It is too early to tell yet percentage wise but in this part of the world really 'good' (40 inches and bigger) bulls are very few and far between. What is also evident is how many 'shitty' bulls there are out there in the 32 to 35 inch spread range. These bulls will never be regarded or make it as 'trophies' in the eyes of those looking for 'inches'- and they are in the majority. To me it is pretty obvious that a lot of the best genetics have been lost to a history of always shooting the biggest bulls.
So, there was a question of 'management' hunts and I'm all for them. For 'poor' quality bulls, yes, the 12 yr limit should not apply, but it should for bulls like the one which started all this - they are indeed very few and far between. I've no idea how many buffalo I've looked at over the past 35 yrs but it is many, many thousands and I can honestly say that in all this time I can count on my two hands the really exceptional bulls like that one. In my opinion such bulls should be regarded as national treasures and given the right to do what bulls to best until past it, breeding age wise. For the operators and concession holders who really care about the long term trophy quality of the buffalo in their areas, a simple instruction that all bulls 40 inches or bigger need to be at least 12 yrs and older before being hunted, will I'm convinced produce noticeable results quite quickly. And I agree, there should also be discounted 'non-trophy' management hunts so as to reduce the number of 'runts'. This is the message I'd like to get across.
The Scots do it right with their stags. All the runts get blotted and the royal fellows get left alone to do their stuff. Out here, we shoot the best, leave the runts to breed and then moan about the poor trophy quality of an area!

Bring on the management hunts!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Bring on the management hunts!!!!!!!!!!!!

They already have those in South Africa!

On farms!!

As I mentioned, all this can be applied on a farm where the owner OWNS the animals!

On a concession, it ain't going to work.

How do you make sure the bull is not going into the next concession and someone is going to clobber him

quote:

Originally posted by doctari505:
a simple instruction that all bulls 40 inches or bigger need to be at least 12 yrs and older before being hunted, will I'm convinced produce noticeable results quite quickly. And I agree, there should also be discounted 'non-trophy' management hunts so as to reduce the number of 'runts'.

Maybe SCI could add a "soft boss/immature" category to their record book and change their slogan to "First for conservation"!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Bring on the management hunts!!!!!!!!!!!!

They already have those in South Africa!

On farms!!

As I mentioned, all this can be applied on a farm where the owner OWNS the animals!

On a concession, it ain't going to work.

How do you make sure the bull is not going into the next concession and someone is going to clobber him

They have them in lots of places Saeed. Haven't you seen them advertised on here?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
So they don't start breeding until they are 8 , I guess this young fellow wasn't sent the memo

I sure as hell didn't wait until I was 21

Mokore has been selling these non-trophy buffalo hunts for awhile now in Sengwa Research. http://forums.accuratereloadin...641051491#5641051491 These are a heck of a deal and as Doctari wrote it culls out the runts.

Mark

quote:

For the operators and concession holders who really care about the long term trophy quality of the buffalo in their areas, a simple instruction that all bulls 40 inches or bigger need to be at least 12 yrs and older before being hunted, will I'm convinced produce noticeable results quite quickly.

Dr. Kevin,
With all due respects to your experience in the field, your degree, and all your books, your blanket statement of "I'm convinced it will produce noticeable results quickly" is completely unfounded in proven fields of science like genomics/genetics.

You're statement that you will see a genetic shift to the higher end of "what humans consider the most desirable trait Horn size" vs. what nature has produced for 1000's of years quickly (emphasis on the word quickly), is outright Laughable! Would you like to define "quickly"....100 yrs, 500 yrs? 5000 yrs?

Here's a list of factors you're just ignoring because as an observational scientist, and obviously don't believe in genetics.

1. You're ignoring the fact that still to this point no parentage testing has been done on a controlled cape buffalo heard to illustrate the ages of bulls and who's actually doing the breeding. If I had to extrapolate from previous studies done on large heard bovine species, I'm willing to bet 15-20% of bulls are breeding by at least 3 yrs of age.

2. You're completely ignoring the Female contribution to the genetic gene pool. Big bull breeds average cow or even below average cow doesn't mean giant bull baby...not matter how many times he breeds her! Even if it's on his 25th Birthday!

3. You're ignoring Nature, which generally pulls animal sizes to the middle, NOT the upper end. You can sit around and theorize that "All the big buffalo have been shot out, and now we're shooting less big ones because the genes are gone" but more realistic is that...even back in the Day...people shot the biggest and left the smaller ones. But present day, there's less Giants to go around, because there is more than likely the same amount of Giants to be shared by the thousands more hunters.

And to all those who want to pound all the professors/scientist to the ground because we're all stupid and dumb working in a lab (never been to the field...that's hysterical), you might just want to throw your computer out the window, all the food in your fridge, including your fridge, oh and how about blow your brains out, because if it wasn't for them...we would all more than likely be dead from smallpox, influenza, and starvation.

When YOU (all on AR) think to yourself what really matters, and what will be your legacy, I highly doubt YOUR ("Your" meaning everyone who's decided to say science is stupid and is unfounded when talking about African animals) opinions on cape buffalo management will be a speck of dust on the ass-crack of this universe vs. SCIENCE!

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:

quote:

For the operators and concession holders who really care about the long term trophy quality of the buffalo in their areas, a simple instruction that all bulls 40 inches or bigger need to be at least 12 yrs and older before being hunted, will I'm convinced produce noticeable results quite quickly.

Dr. Kevin,
With all due respects to your experience in the field, your degree, and all your books, your blanket statement of "I'm convinced it will produce noticeable results quickly" is completely unfounded in proven fields of science like genomics/genetics.

You're statement that you will see a genetic shift to the higher end of "what humans consider the most desirable trait Horn size" vs. what nature has produced for 1000's of years quickly (emphasis on the word quickly), is outright Laughable! Would you like to define "quickly"....100 yrs, 500 yrs? 5000 yrs?

Here's a list of factors you're just ignoring because as an observational scientist, and obviously don't believe in genetics.

1. You're ignoring the fact that still to this point no parentage testing has been done on a controlled cape buffalo heard to illustrate the ages of bulls and who's actually doing the breeding. If I had to extrapolate from previous studies done on large heard bovine species, I'm willing to bet 15-20% of bulls are breeding by at least 3 yrs of age.

2. You're completely ignoring the Female contribution to the genetic gene pool. Big bull breeds average cow or even below average cow doesn't mean giant bull baby...not matter how many times he breeds her! Even if it's on his 25th Birthday!

3. You're ignoring Nature, which generally pulls animal sizes to the middle, NOT the upper end. You can sit around and theorize that "All the big buffalo have been shot out, and now we're shooting less big ones because the genes are gone" but more realistic is that...even back in the Day...people shot the biggest and left the smaller ones. But present day, there's less Giants to go around, because there is more than likely the same amount of Giants to be shared by the thousands more hunters.

And to all those who want to pound all the professors/scientist to the ground because we're all stupid and dumb working in a lab (never been to the field...that's hysterical), you might just want to throw your computer out the window, all the food in your fridge, including your fridge, oh and how about blow your brains out, because if it wasn't for them...we would all more than likely be dead from smallpox, influenza, and starvation.

When YOU (all on AR) think to yourself what really matters, and what will be your legacy, I highly doubt YOUR ("Your" meaning everyone who's decided to say science is stupid and is unfounded when talking about African animals) opinions on cape buffalo management will be a speck of dust on the ass-crack of this universe vs. SCIENCE!

What do you do for a living?

So if Kevin is so far off base, how do you explain the success of the antler restrictions Texas put in place several years ago in many counties? It certainly has not taken 100, 500 or 5000 years to start to produce tangible results.

http://www.tpwmagazine.com/arc...geblast&utm_content=

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
So if Kevin is so far off base, how do you explain the success of the antler restrictions Texas put in place several years ago in many counties? It certainly has not taken 100, 500 or 5000 years to start to produce tangible results.

There is a difference between changing the genetics of a herd and changing the age structure of that herd such that the full potential of existing genetics can be seen. BIG difference.

That said, if you look up the Quagga project, it is pretty amazing that in just three or four generations, the group has been able to produce a Zebra that is basically stripeless on its back 1/3. That is, from a genetics perspective, pretty damned impressive. Do I think we can manage animals for size? Well, places like the King Ranch and others would seem to strongly imply that yes, it can be done in a lifetime or less. I think what might be up for debate here is whether or not allowing an impressive cape buffalo to breed for eight or nine years in stead of just five or six has all that much impact on herd trophy quality. Personally, I would guess that shooting out the even juvenile runts for a few years would have more impact simply because there are more runts than big bulls out there and the greater genetic impact is made when they are not able to breed...because they are on some guys wall and/or in some guys freezer.

JMHO

Frost Bit-I actually work in the Oil Business. However, my schooling consisted of a degree biomedical science and a masters degree in Veterinary pathobiology. I worked extensively in Reproductive technology (white-tailed deer), Zoonotic disease research, genetics, genetic conservation, and started an African DNA collection project that has collected over 10k+ samples that is supported by SCI, DSC, HSC, PHASA, NAPHA just to name a few.

Mike-With regards to deer and antler restriction, are you talking about restricting shooing deer that do not meet spread and point requirements, or the practice of culling spikes and 3 pts?

If you're referring spread and points-I would tell you that those rules only encourage one thing, AGE...giving animals to reach some level of maturity and thus producing their best potential horns in the environment that the natural resources will allow.

Quote from your article "The primary goals of the experimental antler restriction were to improve the age structure of the buck herd..." More deer are actually living to grow a better set of antlers, not we've eliminated all the bad antlers.

Culling very young animals that don't have the phenotypic trait desired (big horns) is easier on deer because they display those traits very young and one can make a decision for or against their horn formation. With buffalo, that will be a very challenging task because...their horns are constantly growing and I would venture to guess that predicting size of the buffalo's potential would be difficult if not impossible while it was very young, to eliminate it's inferior genes from the pool. Especially in a free-roaming herd situation.

The deer breeders certainly have made some incredible leaps and bounds with regards to producing large horn growth. The real gains were seen when breeders started to examine the Female side of the contribution, and realized it wasn't based solely on the male side. In addition to managing the breeding, they maximize the food source and relieve stress...thus allowing an animal to reach it's maximum genetic potential. Again, something that can't be replicated in the wild. When you take a pen raised whitetail and place in 2-3000k acre ranch, he will loose considerable amounts of inches the follow season.

With regards to the King Ranch, yes, it does have some great deer, but it also has tons of small shitty 120-150s. It's not full of 190-250s, the WILD genetic deer brings the quality down to the middle every season. They shoot tons of small deer every year, something we're not going to see in buffalo herds.

DO you really think you could manage a buffalo heard on millions of acres to shoot 1000's of inferior buffalo per season till you've culled your below 40's? No, not enough permits, even if you could, you're not overcoming the female side of the genetic contribution.

Tedrams-Yes they've managed to breed the stripes off a zebra's butt, however, it doesn't make it a quagga, and I can bet you, it's in a 100% controlled environment. Which is great, but not applicable to large free range populations.

At the end of the day, I'm saying this...leaving an animal to "give it a change to put its genes into the population is a ridiculous statement" Studies have shown that animals breed much younger than generally thought, and there's no way in hell to know that a trophy animals that breeds another random animal will produce a trophy similar to itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Tedrams-Yes they've managed to breed the stripes off a zebra's butt, however, it doesn't make it a quagga, and I can bet you, it's in a 100% controlled environment. Which is great, but not applicable to large free range populations.

I agree with most of what you write above...but I think the topic at hand is not "creating new species" but selecting for certain morphological characteristics (eg. big horns or no stripes). That, very clearly, can be done to some degree very quickly...though, as you note, much more easily in a very controlled environment. You are also correct that, if you are going to cull the runt males (difficult in buffalo for reasons you mention) to get bigger horns out of a herd, one had better also be thinking about which females to whack.

Comparing the theories which seem to vary between one country's wildlife management techniques and another leaves one to ponder which/who is right or wrong.

Admittedly there may be a whale of a difference between a Cape Buffalo and say, Chamois or Stag but species of wildlife they still are and subject to management.

Getting to the point:

European Wildlife Management Authorities have set hunting programs which foresee the hunting/killing of males and females of differing age groups, from yearlings to 8 years and over, included in the program are females and their offspring.

Our European AR members can expand on this with a higher degree of knowledge and authority.

Go figure!

"I'm convinced it will produce noticeable results quickly"

I do agree that the above statement is a bit of a stretch.

How quickly is quickly?

And on how many will this effect becomes a reality?

Who can actually say with absolute certainty that a 40"+ bull will produce another one like him?

How many of us look exactly like our fathers?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


Who can actually say with absolute certainty that a 40"+ bull will produce another one like him?

Well this is a truth. 50% of the genetics come from the female (who knows how that relates to horn growth and configuration). It is easier to control this trait by selecting the males to breed or remove.

That said I dont think Kevin is talking about selecting buffalo for horn (size, shape and growth) alone. There are other factors that contribute to a healthy durable herd.

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
Kevin. Thanks so much for posting and stimulating a good discussion. Hope you don't take some of the comments personally but as reprensentative of a broad set of opinions on a complex issue. And I hope you have some effect on the measuring methods vis a vis SCI and encouraging soft boss bulls being taken. Hope to see some more of your great buffalo pictures on the site. For those interested in some scientific studies on buffalo in Kruger check out Brianna Beechler from Oregon State and her PhD on Rift Valley Fever and also some data on 200 collared buffalo in Kruger Park.

Kevin thanks from me also. Your story on your first outing after getting your 505 Gibbs inspired me to move up to a 500 Jeffery. I only met you once and was lucky enough to have you sign your book "The Perfect Shot" for me. That being said, it is truly different when there are fortunate hunters here who have been able to hunt and take literally over a hundred buffalo. The one or two timers like myself while not wanting to shoot an immature buffalo, would have a very hard time passing on that bull.

OK Kevin the dilemma is that for most of us we will not be able to hunt an area that has that sort of population, choice or exclusivity. As a PH/Operator I have to sell buffalo. Therefore what is the second best option?

I see that you have mentioned 'runt' or 'management' bulls? Surely those are the buff who are going to offer you the best sport if inches are not so important.

There actually is a lot known about breeding Cape Buffalo in South Africa. It s very big business. For eg Mystery, a 53" spread bull from Thabo Tholo sold a year ago for $4 US million. A female and heiffer sold for some $2.5 million. Breeding for spread is well under way. Some of the Kruger buffalo (deep curl, lower drop) are being cross bred with East African (less drop, wider spread) to get more width. In addition some are castrated to get more spread but the result is less solid boss. A well know SA trick for selling poor quality big spread horns to the gullible and less concerned about fair chase. One point that is missed in this discussion is that a big spread bull will produce more off spring than a single good female. Hence on breeding farms one good big male is used to breed all the females. There are now a number of > 50" spread breeding bulls in SA and they regularly come up on auction- See Game&Hunt. Artificial fertilization just like for beef breeding bulls is available. When they are pushed out of the herd they come up for trophy "hunts". It is however true that good females with good heritage do produce sons with a good spread. Being a Vet I have been told that Kevin is well aware of these breeding aspects including AI. It seems to me that Kevin is trying to emphasize allowing wild herds produce great wild fair chase trophies rather than going the route of shooting farm raised deer. Because of the demand for big spread horns and selective breeding I have no doubt we will see bred buffalo with more than 60 " spread in the next ten if not five years.

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
There actually is a lot known about breeding Cape Buffalo in South Africa. It s very big business. For eg Mystery, a 53" spread bull from Thabo Tholo sold a year ago for $4 US million. A female and heiffer sold for some $2.5 million. Breeding for spread is well under way. Some of the Kruger buffalo (deep curl, lower drop) are being cross bred with East African (less drop, wider spread) to get more width. In addition some are castrated to get more spread but the result is less solid boss. A well know SA trick for selling poor quality big spread horns to the gullible and less concerned about fair chase. One point that is missed in this discussion is that a big spread bull will produce more off spring than a single good female. Hence on breeding farms one good big male is used to breed all the females. There are now a number of > 50" spread breeding bulls in SA and they regularly come up on auction- See Game&Hunt. Artificial fertilization just like for beef breeding bulls is available. When they are pushed out of the herd they come up for trophy "hunts". It is however true that good females with good heritage do produce sons with a good spread. Being a Vet I have been told that Kevin is well aware of these breeding aspects including AI. It seems to me that Kevin is trying to emphasize allowing wild herds produce great wild fair chase trophies rather than going the route of shooting farm raised deer. Because of the demand for big spread horns and selective breeding I have no doubt we will see bred buffalo with more than 60 " spread in the next ten if not five years.

Either farm breed buffalo change nearly every trophy measure out there or there is a massive bubble in game animals in South Africa that will end ugly.

I think both will happen.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
poor quality big spread horns.

Can you expand on that please.- no pun intended.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
There actually is a lot known about breeding Cape Buffalo in South Africa. It s very big business. For eg Mystery, a 53" spread bull from Thabo Tholo sold a year ago for $4 US million. A female and heiffer sold for some $2.5 million. Breeding for spread is well under way. Some of the Kruger buffalo (deep curl, lower drop) are being cross bred with East African (less drop, wider spread) to get more width. In addition some are castrated to get more spread but the result is less solid boss. A well know SA trick for selling poor quality big spread horns to the gullible and less concerned about fair chase. One point that is missed in this discussion is that a big spread bull will produce more off spring than a single good female. Hence on breeding farms one good big male is used to breed all the females. There are now a number of > 50" spread breeding bulls in SA and they regularly come up on auction- See Game&Hunt. Artificial fertilization just like for beef breeding bulls is available. When they are pushed out of the herd they come up for trophy "hunts". It is however true that good females with good heritage do produce sons with a good spread. Being a Vet I have been told that Kevin is well aware of these breeding aspects including AI. It seems to me that Kevin is trying to emphasize allowing wild herds produce great wild fair chase trophies rather than going the route of shooting farm raised deer. Because of the demand for big spread horns and selective breeding I have no doubt we will see bred buffalo with more than 60 " spread in the next ten if not five years.

Either farm breed buffalo change nearly every trophy measure out there or there is a massive bubble in game animals in South Africa that will end ugly.

I think both will happen.

Mike

This is a huge problem in South Africa. Everyone is breeding . Buffalo , Golden wildebeest , black Impala etc. The problem is that that they are all stud farmers and no one is producing beef so to speak. The value of a 50 inch Buffalo is way out of proportion to the price someone will get for hunting for a 44 inch bull that he sired . As long as there are other / new breeders to buy their stock , these game breeders will make money. This reminds me of the Ostrich breeding hoax that went down in the States some decades ago.
I have no dog in this fight , but the bubble has to burst some time.

+1000 Jan

It will certainly crash, just like the deer industry crashed here in the USA. There are still breeders, however lots of people lost tons of money.

Eventually, you get over-supply, and the original breeders usually outpace the breeders on the 2nd tier of the market, leading to an every present issue with having less than the best every year. Eventually, other people start buying from the less than the best crowd, and they begin to fall further behind till you end up with a glut of buffalo behind fences.

When the breeding market surpasses the hunting market, this will always be the end result. However, I do think it is good for SA operators...because it seems that hunting dangerous game free range is becoming ever more expensive and difficult as certain counties close down.

But in the end, a 50" cape buff won't be anything to get excited about...much like whitetails here in Texas, I can remember when a 200" 3 yr old was a big deal in the mid 2000s, now a 200" yearling isn't that uncommon in a breeding herd in pens.

quote:

At the end of the day, I'm saying this...leaving an animal to "give it a change to put its genes into the population is a ridiculous statement" Studies have shown that animals breed much younger than generally thought, and there's no way in hell to know that a trophy animals that breeds another random animal will produce a trophy similar to itself.

So you are saying SCI has it right with the record book. Shoot young bulls with long horns, soft bosses, get your name in the book and it will have no impact on the future of buffalo since as you say "At the end of the day, I'm saying this...leaving an animal to "give it a change to put its genes into the population is a ridiculous statement"

That bull may or may not breed with a cow that would produce another huge buffalo. It could also breed with multiple cows over the next several years and produce several animals similar in stature. I guarantee one thing, kill him and he will never produce another one.

Operators on large concession face a lot of issues in managing herds. High quotas, poachers, animals moving on and off the concession, etc. One thing I do see is that the guys that run good anti-poaching, reduce their quotas and/or perform some cull hunts, and shoot only good hard boss buffalo (maybe not all 12 YO but good solid bosses) seem to have better long term success.

Mike- My statements have nothing to do with shooting animals for the record book.

To clarify once again..."shooting a buffalo that is mature, whether it has both horns, one horn, or no horns, soft bosses, or bosses make of Steel, it matters not...bc if he's of any age, he's more than likely bread a few cows, and his genes are conserved within the Buffalo Population."

I love how, you want to start throwing me under the bus with all the SCI Haters and anti-record book people, vs just accept SCIENCE. Pick up a book on conservation genetics, population genetics, etc...One BULL doesn't carry the Cross of the herd on his shoulders.

Other factors that might keep that bull from breeding that NO one has control of....

1. He might be sterile and can't produce semen.
2. He might get munched by LIONS.
3. He might get munched by locals!
4. He might die of old age or other illness.
5. He might get run over by some Photo tourism Truck!

Now, after all of this...if that big ass buff is sitting in front of 99% of hunters, all you would hear is the Click and BOOM!

Since this thread has started you have been rude and condescending towards anybody that has not agreed with your view of the world, just thought I would thow a little ass crack back your way.

While I do not agree with 100% of what Kevin writes I think his basic concept of shooting older mature buffalo is sound management. It is proven in many areas.

Kevin was not talking about one bull. In his words “It's time for a mind shift gentleman”. But since for whatever reason you do not agree you use science as a reason to shoot young bulls. Other than the bull may or may have not bred at a young age (just as he may or may not breed at an older age) what is the science behind shooting young bulls. Again this is not about one bull it is about a shift in the way we look at hunting buffalo.

I will agree that 99% of hunters would drop the bull in the picture in a second. I shot a 49" buffalo without hesitation that we aged at 10+ years old, definitely not twelve.

Mike- You certainly did shoot a nice buff! Great pics from your website.

Someone once told me, "I don't care what you believe in, this is what's proven and documented."

Again, this comes down to one thing...AGE...and what everyone's opinion of what AGE a trophy should be? At the end of the day, it's all in the eye of the beholder. All I was trying to express here was that the genes that so many think need to be proliferated are already in the herd, even if he's not 12yrs old and hard bossed.