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Likewise. Good luck making the argument that Mike Jines' ethical standards (unstated until after the fact) will be adhered to by hunters everywhere without some edification of said standards, (before the fact)! For the life of me Mike, I don't know why you insist on calling out the "Cecil the Lion" hunt based on taking place near a park boundary which is legal, at night which is legal, over bait which is legal including the scent dragging activity that goes along with that method, and insisting that they were hunting for a specific collared cat, which may or may not be the case, BUT you will NOT call them out for conducting this hunt without a lion permit / quota for the specific property where the hunt was conducted, a clear violation of LAW! WTF OVER?  Kind of reminds me of Obama continuing to chant about Climate Change as a larger problem than ISIS ... when all evidence is to the contrary!  You can have the last word. I've grown tired of this particular pissing match.  | |||
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It was Aristotle actually who said that, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. While it might make you feel better to break the conduct into little pieces and analyze each piece and then conclude it was all okay because each little piece viewed in isolation is okay, the reality is that the conduct taken in its totality was irresponsible. Now all the rest of us will get the pay the price to some extent for this one person's irresponsible actions. Mike | |||
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You'd feel better if you stopped pissing and started thinking.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Good grief. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Only a philosopher or a lawyer could possibly come up with a theoretical world in which the greater the number of legal activities you undertake, the greater the odds that you have done something morally reprehensible in the aggregate. It appears 100% law abiding citizens might just be the worst of any of us.  | |||
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Which is precisely why a person's activities have to be guided not by whether they have the right to do something but whether it is the right thing to do. Sometimes self restraint is the right answer, not that I had the legal right to do something so I did it now leave me alone. That's hardly theoretical (a world you know well as an academician), that is the real world. Mike | |||
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So apparently, when going home this evening, I had better not drive right at the speed limit, stop at red lights, yield to pedestrians, AND also make sure my car registration is up to date? Any of these things is OK in isolation, but when combined I am somehow more likely to be a law-breaker? Is this just you trying to drum up business by creating the image that somehow "law followers" are dangerous? It's really quite impressive that you have taken ambulance-chasing in a very creative new direction. The ABA should offer you a commendation, My God, this thread is like the mafia....whenever I think I am out, the idiocy being posted by others just pulls me right back in. LOL! | |||
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A morally or ethically questionable decision is not made right simply because it was legal. It is sort of sad actually to have some here suggest just the opposite . . . if you want to act in an ethically dubious way that is fine so long as it is legal, or stated another way, that if something is legal then it is per se ethical.  Mike | |||
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If you want to argue whether he or the PH had proper permits or quota for the area then I'm with you....however if you want to suggest bowhunting a mature lion on bait at night is unethical then I couldn't disagree more. Sounds like a good hunt to me! | |||
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Mike - Come on bro, be nice for awhile will ya? Please come see me at DSC, you obviously need a hug - then I am going to give you wedgie!!  | |||
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. . . fixed it for you. Mike | |||
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So you don't like the fact that people convicted of felonies should be able to hunt? I agree with that...Its not up to me but I can agree with it. The rest still sounds like a good hunt to me. I dont suspect you'll answer my question... | |||
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Mike | |||
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And that is the point. We ALL (yourself absolutely included given the evidence presented here in this thread) act in an ethically dubious way in the eyes of someone or even the majority. We exist in a world governed by laws at least partially to protect the minority rights from that majority position. We have laws, in other words, to protect us all from people like you who would happily impose their perceptions on the rest of us. | |||
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Laws exist to define a minimum standard of acceptable conduct, not to set a maximum standard of acceptable conduct. Where you draw the line between those two points is your choice and you are accountable for your choice. Sometimes, however, like here, not only is the person that made the choice accountable but given their poor choice the rest of us will be held partially accountable too. Since I will be held partially accountable for his decisions, I feel free to opine on those decisions as well. Mike | |||
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You have not been held partially accountable in any way, shape or form. Thats just your imagination. | |||
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This whole thread is simply about difference of opinion. My opinion for what it is worth is that the actions of this PH and his client were bound to prove detrimental to the hunting industry. To target known Park Lions during the dark of night with a pointed stick reeks of greed and misconduct. Like I said my opinion and if this bullshit affects my Lion hunting in Zambia then I will be really pissed off. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I can see both sides of this argument. When Aaron and I argued for self-restraint in trying limit ourselves to shooting only mature lions...we were met with plenty of resistance saying if it was legal...it was fine. We took the road of trying to point out that it was in all hunter's best interest to do this...not to mention it was conservationally correct. I specifically remember Mike being on the opposite side of that conversation many times...as he was gearing up for a lion hunt of his own. So I can sympathize with the fact that sometimes we as hunters do need to try and improve our ethics as a group. Group ethics are best imparted through organizations...the concept behind churches. The fact of the matter though is that orgs like SCI breed people like Palmer...a sad but true fact. So if you don't like Palmer...first thing you should do is renounce your SCI membership...or...work on SCI reform...which is what I have chosen to do. Now on the flip-side...there were some bad things that happened in this hunt: 1) a scaly PH conspired with a Squatter to illegally kill a lion 2) quota transfer being commonly performed made these guys think they could get away with it. And, had they gotten the transfer prior...this whole thing would have been legal. They just got greedy and decided to wait until it was a done deal to make the transfer to leave their options open if the kill did not happen. Palmer did not do anything illegal in hisself. The only thing Palmer did wrong was go hunting with scaly people. But don't hide from the fact that the reason he did it was to obtain a "Gold Medal" trophy! Not to enjoy the experience of a lion hunt. Hunting adjacent to parks: It happens all over Africa and the design of the system was meant to allow it. Shooting collared game: This lion was collared to collect data...NOT...to protect him. If he were collared as a means of protection...it would have been a different story...IE: like the concept mentioned to protect 100 lb park bull ele. If we don't shoot collared game...we have artificially altered the data that the collars were meant to collect. Shooting a collared lion should be a personal decision and not one that people should be scathed for...at least not in the context of their present use. Things to learn: The power of social media and the need for orgs like DSC, SCI, NRA to get out on these subjects with the truth early on. Like the fact that Cecil was known by no one other than a handful of researchers. The Cecil debacle was bad for us all...but not really because Palmer did anything wrong...but because we allowed a plethora of mis-information to run unchecked and unchallenged by the truth. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I am not going to argue with anyone here. Tempers have flared, therefore some are having issues seeing the point of the other. Let me pose a question. If the speed limit was 70 MPH on a highway and it was raining insanely hard with a 60 MPH wind blowing, is it a good idea to drive 70 MPH? It is legal to drive 70 MPH. It is legal to drive when raining. It is legal to drive in high wind. Is it a good idea to do so? Personally, I am not bothered (individually) by : 1- Hunting bordering a park or 2- Hunting lions at night 3- Shooting a collared lion I am bothered by: 1- Palmer's past history. 2- Hunting on seized lands. 3- Likely hunting with people on the banned list. 4- Cutting off the collar and leaving it. 5- Hunting the lion with a bow. 6- The reported price of the hunt. Add the first 3 items and collectively, something sure seems fishy. It sure as hell didn't do us any good. I can't wait for a good Mark Sullivan thread after this one. | |||
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You nailed it larry. One thing for sure i would not want this guy doing any dental work on me. I just don't trust the doctor regardless of if this cecil hunt was legal. Hunting zimbabwe the main ethial and moral action one takes is choosing an outfitter. Nearly everything else is irrelevant - are you hunting with "one of the good guys" or not. If you intentional decide to hunt with the "not the good guys" you have already made your ethical and moral standards known. Let me explain the "not the good guys" point with an example. If I choose to book a hunt with Arnold Payne regardless of if the hunt is legal - the hunt is unethical. To rely soley on the black and white letter of the law in uncle bob's wonderland is a joke. Mike | |||
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Simply choosing to hunt in Zimbabwe at all is an ethical dilemma...make all the excuses of doing it for the right reasons you want but ethics and moral standards must be adhered to are they not? And no I'm not against hunting in Zimbabwe... Just wondering why some choose to look the other way on that particular ethical question? | |||
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Pick the right people to hunt with. Then most critical thing in Zim is choice of outfitter. If you don't known who the right people are - start a new thread and ask who are the right people to hunt with in zim. Mike | |||
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Ask me how surprised I am. | |||
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It's not as simple as hunting with the right outfitter...in the end your hard earned money is supporting a brutal dictator who ruined an entire country. You can ignore it for the benefit of the wildlife..but that doesn't make it not true. Where I was raised that would make it unethical | |||
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And even if he couldn't, do we really expect every country on the planet to background check every potential hunter from anywhere to make sure they are not felons of any sort? Even if Palmer were a felon prohibited from owning firearms in the US, would we expect a PH in Africa to NOT offer him a loaner rifle for a hunt? Would the US or Canada ever consider prohibiting a felon of any sort from abroad from hunting in these locales? What about if someone commits a crime that is a misdemeanor in their home country but a felony in the country they want to hunt...or vice versa. Do we really want to live in a world where you need a lawyer to decide if you can hunt someplace? Well, now that I think about it...I suppose there is one subset of the population that would benefit from that reality, right Mike? Trying to increase your billable hours again? | |||
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Same can be said about supporting the house of saud when you fill your gas tank. Mike | |||
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True...except there is a big difference between saying "Fuck that guy, I will hunt elsewhere" and "Fuck that guy, I will ride a bike everywhere".  | |||
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That's my point... Every one chooses to ignore certain ethical dilemmas for one reason or another. Unless we are going to ban it. Arguing about whether it's right or wrong will be endless. | |||
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I basically agree with you Larry. Except I see nothing wrong with hunting lion with a bow. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Precisely! This has been my point all along. However, if given the option of saying, "To hell with the guy who embraces ethical relativism within a legal context" or "To hell with the guy who wants to impose his ethics on me", I think most would happily choose the latter. This is especially true when it is clear that the "moral" person arguing for stringing up Palmer is probably (at least in this case) someone with skeletons in their closet who has also openly done things that the average non-hunter would find much more appalling than Palmer's actions. | |||
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Some people try but they always seem to fall short . . . I guess that explains the appeal to some of academia. Mike | |||
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There are plenty of hunters I know that would think you are the lowest of the low for hunting an elephant. Matter of fact dr. Palmer would be an angel compared to what they would think of you for "murdering a gentle giant"....for some reason lions are kinda ok to hunt because they understand predator control but no way could they accept killing an elephant. I've tried to explaine and many simply don't care to hear it...and these are the same people who will talk hunting conservation about most other types of hunting. So in the eyes of many your ethics are at the bottom. Some would say non existent. But I will defend your morally questionable conduct for the sake of hunting in general | |||
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Including the people who taught you at law school, Mike? They too seem to have fallen short. When you can fashion an argument that amounts to a bit more than, "Because I don't like it and I know the ignorant anti-hunters won't like it either", then maybe you can call yourself a lawyer and maybe you can be a bit more persuasive on this front. When you can do this without having undertaken activities that even other hunters likely find more repugnant than Palmer's actions, well then...maybe you become an actual authority on the subject. Until then, for your own sake, it might be best to STFU. | |||
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I have no problem defending my decision to hunt and the ethics of hunting elephant, or a lioness, or a cow buffalo, or a doe for that matter. As I have said at least a half a dozen times, it is about taking personal responsibility for your actions and being accountable for your actions. What did Palmer do when confronted with the fact that he illegally took the bear . . . he lied. What did Palmer do when confronted with the Cecil situation . . . he blamed the outfitter. Personally I look for more in a person I want to stand behind or with. His decisions were flawed and now we all get to deal with the aftermath. Mike | |||
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Someone once said, will minus intellect results in vulgarity. Pretty apropos. Mike | |||
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Someone also once said, "It requires a peculiar WEAKNESS of character in a man to deny himself a vice". My vice is speaking plainly. | |||
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Someone also once paraphrased-- Let's kill all the lawyers--- Let's kill them tonight- Mike it is obvious you are miserable in retirement- Why else spend so much of your lofty knowledge of ethics on us poor ignorant, uneducated, heathen rednecks without JD behind our names When in your heart and brain,you know those of us with mere bachelors, masters ,medical degrees and PHD's can't comprehend your absolutely correct and perfect ethical knowledge DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Why? Because I enjoy sport hunting and would like to ensure the ability to continue to enjoy the sport well into the future . . . and there is no question that the ill considered and selfish actions of folks like Palmer and activities like canned lion hunting represent a real and tangible threat to the future of the sport. Pretty simple. Mike | |||
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, At night? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Minnesota investigates illegal hunting allegations on Cecil the lion killer's land
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