The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What Is Our Members Definition Of NON REFUNDABLE DepositGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| What Is Our Members Definition Of NON REFUNDABLE Deposit | Login/Join |
One of Us |
In contact with the outfitter and hoping just to roll everything over till next year. Do believe that in most cases common sense will prevale and changes will be made to suit both the hunter and the oufitter | |||
|
One of Us |
It is a domino effect and you will have to keep shifting till all is right. Good attitude mate ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
|
| One of Us |
All operators I know are making a plan to suit the hunters. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am sure they are as you know the good ones and your track record speaks well for you and I am sure you will make it right for all your hunters. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Even if there was a non refundable clause what about a situation where the outfitter is not able to provide the hunt? Say you book a hunt 2 years out for bighorn sheep in Alberta. 6 months from the hunt the government cancels sheep hunting in the province. Should the hunter eat this one? Don Trust only those who stand to lose as much as you do when things go wrong. | |||
|
One of Us |
There are at least two parties to any agreement. What matters is how both parties, through discussion and ultimately agreement, have defined nonrefundable. Many factors play into the definition. But in the safari business, the general rule is that if the safari is canceled for any reason other than the outfitter’s inability or unwillingness to perform, the deposit is nonrefundable. Preferably, but with honorable people, not necessarily, the terms of an agreement should be in writing. Even an email is better than nothing, if for no other reason than that it is a record and helps avoid misunderstandings. But of course, the key to the success of any transaction, or its salvation when things go sideways for reasons beyond the control of the parties, is to do business only with honest and trustworthy people. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
|
| One of Us |
This. It is a business transaction, not a hunting trip with your buddies. The range of opinions expressed here are exactly the reason contracts have to exist in the first place. In an event such as this where the hunt cannot take place through neither parties' fault the PH may want to reschedule, refund, or give credit towards a future hunt for the purpose of garnering loyalty but to me isn't obligated to do so unless it is in the contract. I haven't seen much discussion of the fixed expenses outfitters incur up front regardless of if the hunter shows up. Staff must be hired, concession fees paid, food, fuel, and equipment purchased and transported, etc etc. To me, besides ensuring the client has skin in the game and won't back out on short notice preventing the dates from being resold, that is the sort of thing non-refundable deposits should cover. If I hire a contractor to paint pink polka dots on my house, and the contract I willingly signs says I have to pay a non-refundable 20% up front so he can custom order paint that isn't likely to be usable on any other project, then suddenly the zoning laws change prohibiting polka dots, should he eat the cost? Is it in any way the PH's fault that his client chooses to live thousands of miles away on a different continent necessitating complicated travel arrangements even in a good year? It is a very unfortunate situation all around and kudos to the PHs able and willing to provide relief or work with clients, but I certainly would not expect it. DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" | |||
|
One of Us |
I guess this thread evidences why litigation over contractual disputes continues year in and year out even over issues that seem cut and dried on the surface. My $0.02. I think "non-refundable" as used in a hunting contract context means that if the hunter for reasons that are specific to that hunter decides to cancel or needs to back out, the deposit is lost, e.g., job changes, health issues, family considerations, etc. I do not think "non-refundable" as used in a hunting contract context was intended to encompass travel restrictions, airline cancellations, country-wide quarantine requirements and other causes that impact travelers and hunters generally. Mike | |||
|
One of Us |
The following is the cancellation clause for my contract for hunt commencing in August 1, 2020. Cancellation Policy – No refund of any deposit paid if the hunt is cancelled by the client within 6 months of the date of commencement of the hunt. If the hunt is cancelled by the client 6 months before the hunt, 50% of the deposit will be refundable. In the event of the safari being cancelled by the Safari operator or the area is closed to hunting or travel prior to the commencement of the hunt, the client will be refunded in full. I am perfectly fine with these terms. I paid 40% of daily rates back in February. I will send the remainder 60% on May 5th as scheduled. I will wait for trophy fees until mid July. Most likely though I would let him keep the funds towards a hunt at a future date so that he can have funds to tide him over and stay in business. | |||
|
| One of Us |
once again everyone does not read what is said most always say if client cx he is out his deposit or gets it back if outfitter cx. So what happens when neither cx but the hunt still can not happen. I know a whole bunch on here like to act like they are so smart and this is cut and dry but come on now. We all know this is not a normal thing that is going on now. I agree it should be rebooked if at all possible but sometimes things may need to be workout so not only one side takes the lost when no one cx | |||
|
| One Of Us |
I am quite amused by the various commentary on this subject. My corporate career was as a bean counter of a major international division of a US Fortune 100 company...and major writer of long term contracts. First, this virus is being called Novel Virus, and one could also extend that to Novel Business Interruption!! One of the things that we did as Big business, doing business with small entrepreneurs, major international corporations and Government, ie China etc...and one of the concepts that we always followed was " the REASONALBE PERSONS Concept."....meaning, what would reasonable people do under the circumstances....without getting expensive lawyers in to stir the pot!! There is also a legal term or concept called FORCE MAJEURE.....and is generally included in all international contracts...and might even be implied in smaller applications....in other words, if it becomes impossible for one party or another, through no doings of himself, like wars, terrorist activity, fires, earthquake,weather and yes, even pandemics....the contract becomes void or set aside. Of course when you are delivering a product that was presumably ordered, maybe with custom specs, one has a different situation than a Safari...has the product shipped, enroute, delivered...on and on. On a safari, one is basically buying or reserving a block of time, and in some cases specific animal tags. Yes the outfitter has expenses, employees, but the game doesn't get shot so still exists...in some cases, quotas for blocks of time do factor in. I would guess, that the deposit might relate closely to the profit margin if the hunt doesn't take place...maybe more if the trophy fees were collected...?? It seems to me that in the present situation, when the hunting Countries are turning away visitors, and airlines are NOT bringing travelers in....it becomes impossible for either hunter or PH to operate...the game holds over and "reasonable people make reasonable agreements to reconvene in due course." Yes, there will be extenuating situations that might prevent rolling dates...on both sides... following the Force Majeure concept, the agreement is voided and everyone is returned to square one. Seems Reasonable to Me!! This will be over soon...and we will look back on this as a new learning...and hopefully there won't be a bunch of profiteering that will tarnish our sport. I am sure the profiteers might be reported here, so we know in the future who the Good Guys are to book in the future. Cheers, 470EDDY | |||
|
| One of Us |
I see a lot of different opinions...but I think overall this is a different situation than most, and I think its important to understand the "specific" differences! Rarely do we see a "mass" cancellation / delay in one's hunt...this time though that's not the case. Generally (key word) its a specific hunter needing to cancel for a specific health reason, maybe family, etc, and sometimes the same from the outfitters perspective - thus its generally a bit easier to work around, reschedule, etc. In this case (take NZ for example - as its their peak season right now) you have dozens of guys cancelling, no fault of their own of course, but no fault of the outfitter's either - but its a real problem! Its gonna be very hard for an outfitter in NZ to role 20 guys over to 2021, when perhaps 50% of his 2021 hunts were booked already too. Think of some of the spring bear guys in Canada who have 20 - 40 guys set to come April / May 2020, what are they suppose to do with all those guys? I'm sincerely not picking sides...I'm just saying that I have talked to alot of guys on both sides, and its really gonna be an issue as to how to handle it all to everyone's satisfaction? Right now I'm telling everyone who still want to hunt, to focus on USA hunts that you can easily fly to, or drive...or hunts that you can apply for across the west - but to be patient with hunts elsewhere, as its really gonna take some time to sort this all out. Just my opinion...nothing more! | |||
|
| one of us |
Good post Aaron; I have never cancelled a hunt, but it seems most guys are willing to roll over hunts. But as you say, this is a totally different situation - even worse than the GFC in terms of breadth and speed. The only thing you could hope for is to roll the hunt to perhaps 2022, but at some point, it does get a bit ridiculous. In some ways, outfitters have created the problem: they want half well before the hunt and full price paid sometimes 90 days before the hunt. If you are a legit business, you should have capital to fund your activities without requiring upfront payment. But, if outfitters are good about rolling deposits, all is fair. Personally, maybe a better solution is to take 10 or 25% upfront and rigidly enforce a cancellation policy. Yes, the hunt may not be replaced in time, but expenses will be lower as well. Or perhaps a policy of refunding the dep less any required discounts if the hunt is rebooked would be feasible. I would also say, given the massive evaporation of wealth corona has caused, if you are fretting about the loss of a deposit, you are probably spending more money on hunting than you can afford. JMO. | |||
|
One of Us |
100% Agree. A select few will benefit from fanning the flames of panic, but the reasonable understand this too shall pass. None will come out unscathed but keeping calm in times of emergency is the best course of action to prevent complete catastrophe. | |||
|
| One of Us |
As I have said before, if one is going to rely on a force majeure argument, it had better be written down and signed by both parties. If not, as the wag once said, it's not worth the paper it's not written on. And even if it is written down, and your counterparty is legally domiciled in a foreign country, then good luck enforcing it. Also as I have said before, the key to the success of any transaction, or its salvation when things go sideways for reasons beyond the control of the parties, is to do business only with honest and trustworthy people. As another wag once said, even in the Halls of Justice, the only justice is in the halls. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
|
One of Us |
Truer words have not been spoken. 95% of all matters settle, and a great many of them in the halls outside the courtroom.  | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What Is Our Members Definition Of NON REFUNDABLE Deposit
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia