The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What Is Our Members Definition Of NON REFUNDABLE DepositGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Ladies and Gentlemen, I am asking all members, both clients and professionals, to give us their definition of NON REFUNDABLE deposit. To me, it is very simple. You agree to pay a deposit to reserve a specific time slot for your hunt. It specifically says NON REFUNDABLE. Which I understand if for any reason I AM unable to present myself at the required time and place, I lose my NON REFUNDABLE deposit. End of story. Can we have your opinions please? | ||
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Saeed. In lieu of the pending virus, I changed my deposit clauses from the usual payment of the total daily rates to a nonrefundable $5,000 deposit to keep the booking. Thus extending my clients a considerable saving if they were to cancel the hunt. Normally the nonrefundable clause kicks in three months prior to the safari. However, my contract offers to move the hunt and states 'open to negotiation'. You are right and under normal conditions, any cancellation within earshot of the safari would warrant forfeiture of the deposits. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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To me it is simple if I cancel for a reason that is personally to me no refund. When not being able to get there because a country closes down that is not my fault at all. I would not ask for a refund unless no other dates could be booked in a year or two of orginal hunt. I stinks any way you look at it but if no service is give because of something out of my control why should I pay or be out any money. | |||
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I found it interesting reading an outfitters add. He said if you could not get in the country because of the airlines or government regs, he would roll the hunt over to a following year BUT if there was an increase in cost of the hunt you would have to pay the higher amount. | |||
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A nonrefundable deposit is exactly that - nonrefundable. Most operators are either making allowances for partial or full refunds OR simply rescheduling the hunt for later in this year or next. Pretty simple really... ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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I think that is only fair. Remember neither the operator nor the client is responsible for the situation, so if any price increases were implemented the operator would surely need to pass it on. These are uncertain times with unprecedented actions. The legal industry will have a booming trade once things calm down !!! | |||
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It's self explanatory. | |||
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If a client can’t get to a country because of airline restrictions or a country closing to visitors, we are rescheduling for the future. If borders and air are available and a client decides they don’t want to travel, deposit will be lost. Normally a deposit is a deposit and would be lost if a client decides to simply cancel a hunt, but this mess is completely different. We are doing all we can to help. In normal times we do try to work with client and outfitter about rescheduling if it is an option that works for both parties. If not, deposit lost. Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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What about if your outfitter also is unable to present himself at the required time and place? | |||
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So all of you know, this topic was prompted by a discussion in another thread. I'll repost a couple of my notes for ease of reference: You are paying for a service or a thing. If that service or thing isn't provided, then there's no deal. Everybody goes back to zero. I agree that if you were simply to cancel b/c you changed your mind or you couldn't perform, then that's a different circumstance. That's not what's happening with COVID-19. In this fortuitous circumstance, the underlying object/performance of an agreement ceases to be possible or to exist. So, the agreement is dissolved. The deposit should be returned. Otherwise, the deposit in reality becomes a donation. That’s not a deposit at all! Because if it was a deposit, by any definition, it must be returned when performance of the agreement becomes impossible/ceases to exist. In layman’s terms, the deposit (even with non-refundable in front of it) isn’t earned until you actually do what you’re being paid to do or tender the service/object to the person entitled to the service. That’s not being done here. So, in actuality, it’s not technically being refunded - it’s being returned as the agreement was dissolved and the deposit was never earned. For example, if you put a non-refundable deposit down on a one of a kind Rolex, and then the salesman can't provide that Rolex, should your deposit be returned? Of course! "Non-refundable" just meant that you couldn't change your mind on the order or return the watch b/c you didn't like it. BUT THE SALESMAN ALWAYS HAD TO PROVIDE THE ROLEX. Another example: if an airline flight is canceled, passengers are entitled to a refund even with a non-refundable ticket. If the two parties can agree to move the hunt to a subsequent date, then that's 100% great for everyone. I'm all for it. If you're in an economic position to be charitable and waive a return of a deposit, that's awesome too. | |||
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There is Non-Refundable and there is also Forfeited. Your discussions/agreement should be clear about both issues. Just because a deposit is non-refundable doesn't mean both parties agree it is forfeited. For example, it might be non-refundable for a cancellation within six months and forfeited with in three months. You should also clearly discuss, what happens if the booking is filled at full price. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Whatever the cause may be that prevents his direct participation, he will ensure that you will be taken care of by an equally competent PH. | |||
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The outfitter still has the deposit and will have not incurred any safari expenses; he will however be faced with some losses for the season but again everyone is going to incur some losses over this disaster. He will at least have your and likely other deposits as guarantees that the hunts will materialize at a later date. Refund the deposit? ..... No. | |||
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all I can say keeping a deposit for something that is out of control of the hunter will come back and bite some. Rebooking is the best for all but if someone can not make it now or scared because of all this keeping a whole deposit is not good. We all know the amount of guys going to Africa is down and down in SA a lot. Word gets out deposits are kept and no hunts happening. Just watch how fast the gravy train of Us hunters drys up. Both sides need to be fair and work it out but realize it could be different for each client. I will always just move the trip with the outfitter and pick dates we could make work if Ican not get in country. Hoping all goes well I have a trip planned for SA and namibia from july 8th till aug 15th with 3 places | |||
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IMHO, keeping a deposit of any kind, non-refundable or not, and not delivering the service, is nothing short of theft. Of course, such things are completely foreign to many African safari operators. | |||
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I would love to do business purely on handshakes and for the most part I do. Unfortunately, my attorney or clients attorneys insist on a certain amount of contracts. Just a fact of life. In regard to things that are spelled out, like non-refundable deposits, everyone is a hero when things are going good. When times get tough, some people start to look for the loopholes to exploit. In my experience, I get as far from those people in future dealings as I can as it’s a good indicator of shortcomings in character, values or solvency. Non-refundable is a simple concept, I even posted the definition on the other thread. | |||
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To me, non-refundable deposit means you have committed to the hunt. If health issues, a virus scare, or other personal issues arise, the outfitter is entitled to keep the deposit. And the amount of the deposit should reflect that possibility - enough to reserve a spot and reimburse the outfitter for costs incurred if you don't show, but not meant as a profit center. Clients should bear this in mind when agreeing to a deposit amount. If the outfitter is unable to deliver the hunt, no matter the reason, they are obligated to refund the full deposit ASAP. In situations where air travel is cancelled, unobtainable, or banned, it's the fault of neither the outfitter nor the client. That becomes a matter for negotiation in a reasonable world. While the outfitter is usually contractually entitled to keep the deposit, they are ethically bound to reach a compromise with the client. If they don't, the reputation risk should come into play and the short term gain becomes a longer term problem. Having said that, my practice has been "a card laid is a card played". And I keep that in mind when making a deposit. In these circumstances today, I might ask for a refund of some of the deposit, but wouldn't personally take umbrage is the outfitter simply cannot effort to refund. Again, that's just me. | |||
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A deposit is skin in the game, an anty beat. If you cancel or fold, unless the contract states refunds for certain situations, similar to a force majeure clause, then you loose the deposit. I would not want mine back. If it says non refund, I commit, and back out that is the risk of doing business. If I need that deposit back, I could not afford the hunt to begin with. I personally take direct contacts with oversea outfitters with a grain of salt. Because even if there is no way I am not “right” gaining service and enforcement of judgement seems more than daunting. I also do not expect every or any outfitter unless refund a non refunded stated deposit out of the goodness of there hearts. It is a cash/expenditure heavy business and a bunch of cancellations as Covid 19 has wrought means a lot of unpaid bills and eating a lot of beans. I would rather the outfitter keep deposit and reset the date. When the planes start moving again go hunting. The Outfitter will full compensation (not just deposit) that way. I think most outfitters would prefer that. Those that would not would not get my business in the future. However, the non refundable deposit would still be theirs. | |||
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So, you’re saying that if YOU cancel a hunt, even fairly close to the date of safari, the safari operator should refund the deposit because he didn’t end up delivering the service? To me, that seems like YOU are the one engaging in theft. You’re stealing his opportunity to sell his services, which costs him money. I may be mistaken, but the tone of your post makes it sound as if you see things one way only. Your way. | |||
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That's not what he said at all. Read it again. | |||
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This exact situation happened to us on my son’s recent safari with Mike Fell in Tanzania. I got a call from Mike at, literally, 10:30 PM the night before we were set to board our charter flight out to Maswa. Mike informed me that he had a family emergency and would have to leave on the return leg of our flight. So, here we are on the eve of my son’s long anticipated 1st buffalo hunt and our PH is calling to say “I’m very sorry but I won’t be able to guide you”. Mike assured us he had lined up a ‘very good’ PH, Tom Dames, to guide my son, and that we were in very good hands with Tom. As it turned out, Tom was fantastic. Great guy with a wonderful sense of humor under difficult circumstances. We hunted hard despite terrible conditions (rained every day except one) that had us getting stuck in mud constantly and limited to only about 25% of the Maswa North concession due to high rivers. In the end, my son had a wonderful time, truly earned some great animals and we both would hunt with Tom again without the slightest hesitation. In fact, we both would love to hunt with Tom again. | |||
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Non-refundable means you don't get it back. It doesn't mean it couldn't be applied to a future hunt. Jeff | |||
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If your performance under the contract, payment and arrival, triggers the conditions under the contract the Outfitter is to provide, then you have an outfitter in breach. You are entitled to compensatory damages, or specific performance generally. If you prove fraud, good luck, punitive damages. Contracts in my world and most dealings have liquidated damage clause for non performance. I have not seen or heard a Outfitter hunting contract with liquidated damages. Again, force mejeure clause can change things. Outfitters are motivated to deliver bc that is how they get paid the full ticket and referral/repeat business. If you think an Outfitter breaches the contract withhold payment, sue for out of pocket expense (I hope you make a fraud case), and let us know about it. | |||
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+1 very well said DRSS Searcy 470 NE | |||
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Some hunts are booked at a premium to hunt with a specific ph. ie: The experience with a Gerard Miller, Robin Hurt(if he would still do a hunt), Lou Hallamore, John Sharp, you  , etc. may be considered superior to a hunt with a competent yet unknown ph. Should a perceived premium be discounted from the cost if the desired ph wasn't able to preform. | |||
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A deposit is part for a payment for service I am buying and paying for. As in food lodging guiding and trophy fees. I don't get a hunt and there country closed there chance to do business is not me cx my hunt. What skin in the game does the outfitter have. If My trip is cx months ahead of time he is out no more then anyone else doing business taking a hit because of all the bs going. Like I said I would do all I can to work with anyone I booked with. A comment like if the deposit will break me I should not be going is bs.Or that means I can not afford to be going A lot of guys save for years so maybe they can not take that hit like some people who are better off but that is a bs comment. | |||
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The situation we are talking about is NOT someone canceling a hunt but the whole country being shutdown and no hunts happening. Outfitter wouldn't be able to sell that hunt to anyone if the country is shutdown. | |||
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Zaeed just what it says … non refundable... however in the cases we are dealing with now I don't have a answer, governments should come to the party and take it on them to pay concession fees and community pledges. Surely if the client cant get their how in the world can he be liable not getting another hunt or deposit refund? This mess will show witch countries are going to man up. it is also not the operators fault, If quotas can not be hunted Cities should double them next year governments should waver concession fees that way the dominos effect will not be so bad. This is interesting times... Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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As one of the many that have a hunt scheduled for Next month, which was booked two years ago with a deposit of 25% A further 25% was paid 12 months ago , Final Balance of 50% Paid three weeks ago, BEFORE all the travel bans came into place So which of the above becomes the NON REFUNDABLE portion of the deposit? My personal opinion is that the first 25% should be the only monies in question, as that was all that was required to secure the time slot agreed on, the remaining 75% should be refunded as no service was delivered. As in all industries that rely on good public relations to continue and thrive, it is then totally up to discretion of the outfitter whether to roll that 25% over to secure the same dates next year. Never before have we had a situation where not only can't leave my own Country, I Can't enter the country (Canada) that the hunt is take place. Scott Australia | |||
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Question is, who is unable to deliver the hunt? Seems that BOTH parties are unable to fulfill their contractual obligations in the current instance. You may have a willing hunter, but the PH's country will NOT allow the hunter to enter the country. Moreover, you may also have the hunter's country NOT allowing the hunter to travel outside of his country. Take the deposit and move it and the hunt to next year or the year after-whatever works for the hunter and the PH, recognizing that BOTH are in a position, through no fault of either, that has made it impossible for either party to perform under their agreement. Mutual impossibility to perform.  Or, frustration of purpose, impraticability of performance, etc. Force majeure. Good luck to everyone in these unfortunate situations. | |||
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I don't understand what the big deal with deposits is....if you paid a deposit it means that you want to go so just work with your PH and scheduled an alternate date. I paid my entire day rate for a mid-April hunt to a PH in Zimbabwe...he know that it is no one's fault for what's going on so we set a tentative alternative date for June. If it's still not over then we will push it back again. He has my money and wants to give me my hunt....I don't want my money back....I want to go hunting! Where is there a problem here? | |||
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This ^^^^^^ | |||
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I save for years as well sir. That is why I am going in 2021 and not 2020. I do not purchase anything with “disposable income” that I care to loose. A deposit holds your place in line and also Outfitter to meet expenses plain and simple. Read my other post, if there is no force mejeure clause, you do not arrrive, and the 25% percent, 50 percent% whatever is non refundable or only x among is refunaiif you cancel by x date, that is it. When you fulfill your conditions of the contract; payment and show up which triggers the Outfitters obligations and the Outfitter does not perform his conditions. Sue the Outfitter for breach. And yes, if it hurts that bad to not get a contract stated non refund deposit back, one is buying to close to the safety margin. Most outfitters will work to move the data. It is good business. They want the whole price not just the deposit. But you are not going to force a deposit return that the contract says is non refundable unless the contract says in the event of general description x happens, or you cancel by this date you will be refunded x amount of dollars. I did not go on my first oversees hunt until I paid off my house. Others can do as they wish, but non refundable means, sorry you do not get this money back. For the fifth time force mejeure clauses not withstanding. If I could not get on a plane bc of this crisis and get to the field, the guys I have done repeat businesses would work with me to move the date. However, I would not ask nor expect the return of my stated non refundable deposit. The one contract that had a force mejeure clause that this crisis would have triggered to recover a refund I would not do business with again if I were paid to. I am sorry the fact one should never put money down for a luxury that they would feel the pain of loosing upsets you. I always was taught not doing that was common knowledge. A deposit is part payment, your conditions on the contract have to be fulliled as well, which are generally pay up and show up. Have you asked your Outfitter to move the date? You do not have to answer that. The question is really a suggestion. I know you are asking what if I can’t get there due to s crisis not of my making and the country is closed. The fact remains non redundable means non refundable unless the contract has a clause that says, “In the event of war, humanitarian crisis created by the weather, disease, or other acts of god that prevents entry into the host country from your home country during the days booked by Client during the dates set by this Contract the Outfitter shall refund X amount of dollars.” That is a force mejeure clause. Please, give me a little break. I am doing this off the top of my head. I have only had one contract with such language. I would never do busses with that bunch again. Most and all good Outfitters will work with you to move the date. If you cannot reach the field due to chrona virus travel bans. They want you to come, have a good time, pay the full bill, and send someone else. My three contracts have said, “If you for any reason cancel before this date, you will receive x dollars refunded. However, no refund shall be provided if you cancel within thirty days of the first date booked under this contract.” That is because the a Outfitter has by then allocated those funds. | |||
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I was just answering the question posted. I am in no danger of loosing any deposit way smarter then that and trusted by each place I hunt with. I think your last paragragh said all anyone needs to see. no refund shall be given if cx within 30 days of dated booked. Hunters are not cx there hunt they are not able to get in the country and this is one area no one thought of and bad on both sides. Just saying keeping something you did not work for can hurt you long term once word gets out and I would do all I could to make it right but once AGAIN it is not a problem I have to deal with even I do not get to go on my trip | |||
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Yep.  And a hard ass PH/outfitter that won't work with the client, will soon find that he has no clients to work with, notwithstanding actual contractual or common law contract obligations and/or defenses. Good long-term business sense goes beyond that. I do hope that it all works out for everyone. | |||
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Exactly! And I hope our members will share experience they have in this regard. | |||
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Just have the outfitter move the hunt till a later date or next year. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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My clients paid $5,000 nonrefundable deposit to keep the hunt presumably for next year. Thus I do not need to market or attend the shows that is a saving for me. This money will be offset from the daily rates I do not make money I am simply shifting the deposit around and this is a commitment from my clients. Never in my history have I ever keep a deposit from a cancellation. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Fairgame what will happen if the hunt cant take place this year? Quotas are sold for 2021 in most cases on cats so even if the operator wants to and is willing to reschedule quotas might be a problem.... this is why I say governments should come to the party... I for one will honour every single hunt that I have booked even If loose the deposit already paid in other countries in the long run I am sure it will all come back to me. I will not keep a deposit and not deliver a hunt Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What Is Our Members Definition Of NON REFUNDABLE Deposit
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