The Accurate Reloading Forums
Cecil the Lion Killed by American?
29 July 2015, 20:42
Heym 450/400Cecil the Lion Killed by American?
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.
This has everything to do with poaching... If you break the law your a poacher and you make us look bad. The rest is what ifs and my ethics and yours. The news has had so much wrong in almost every story all the way through. Where it goes from here will be interesting
29 July 2015, 20:53
shootawayquote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.
This has everything to do with poaching... If you break the law your a poacher and you make us look bad. The rest is what ifs and my ethics and yours. The news has had so much wrong in almost every story all the way through. Where it goes from here will be interesting
I did not know poachers make us look bad-thanks for telling me.Now I really hate them.
29 July 2015, 20:55
StopckmakerWhy are so many hunters defending this guy and assuming he is a victim? Alternately the media and the "antis" have already convicted him (as expected) but no one knows for sure. Neither position is appropriate at this point as the facts are not yet in.
Latest info says Cecil was well know to be a Park favorite ( distinguished by his black mane); and was baited out of the park and was wearing a collar (perhaps not visible).
Whether the Minnesota dentist was naive or innocent and possibly the victim of an unscrupulous PH has yet to be determined. IF he is proven to be an "accomplice" then he deserves to be crucified for the misdeed. Baiting an animal out of a park to shoot it is a sleezy and unethical practice, ,even if marginally legal.
Worse still, the animal apparently suffered from an arrow or "bolt" wound for two days before being dispatched with a rifle. The worst aspect of this whole affair, regardless of the ultimate outcome, is the bad press and the damage it does to hunters and their image. We need this adverse publicity like we need another asshole. Hunting and trophy hunting in particular has taken a bad hit and legitimate ethical hunters will suffer even if the dentist is exonerated.
If not, defending him will prove to be a mistake,further damaging hunting and hunters.
I say let us wait until the facts are in before
assuming anything, then take appropriate action.
29 July 2015, 20:59
7MMNutquote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.
It has everything to do with poaching. Unfortunately the non/anti hunting crowd has been quite successful in linking hunting and poaching as being one in the same. Do supporters of legal regulated hunting bear in part some responsibility for this?
29 July 2015, 21:19
JGRaiderquote:
Originally posted by 7MMNut:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
This has nothing to do with poaching.Wildlife is poached every day in Africa with poachers caught and that never makes the news.
It has everything to do with poaching. Unfortunately the non/anti hunting crowd has been quite successful in linking hunting and poaching as being one in the same. Do supporters of legal regulated hunting bear in part some responsibility for this?
Kind of interesting that, come to find out, this Palmer guy has 45'ish trophies listed in the SCI record book.........interesting to me anyway, that he settled a sexual harassment suit with one of his ex employees is interesting as well.
29 July 2015, 21:22
RiverduckPeople deserve the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty.
The media won't do that of course unless the accused party is an anti-American radical.
I will give this hunter the benefit of the doubt until he is proven guilty in a reliable court of law. Not by the media or the corrupt system of law in Zim.
29 July 2015, 21:27
Heym 450/400quote:
Originally posted by Riverduck:
People deserve the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty.
The media won't do that of course unless the accused party is an anti-American radical.
I will give this hunter the benefit of the doubt until he is proven guilty in a reliable court of law. Not by the media or the corrupt system of law in Zim.
I tried to have that mentality but I was told he is guilty.. By the court of the Internet forum. So drag him in the street and hang him high.
29 July 2015, 21:36
Heym 450/400There are plenty on here who could care less if he's actually innocent or not. They just don't like the bad press for their own selfish reasons. They would sacrifice one of their own as long as they get to go hunt what they want. And they tell you it's for the greater good
29 July 2015, 21:42
Crazyhorseconsultingquote:
People deserve the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty.
Not on the InterNet.
Even the rocks don't last forever.
29 July 2015, 21:44
Lhook7quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
There are plenty on here who could care less if he's actually innocent or not. They just don't like the bad press for their own selfish reasons. They would sacrifice one of their own as long as they get to go hunt what they want. And they tell you it's for the greater good
Do you believe hunting is a conservation tool? Do you believe this incident will make it more or less likely that lion hunting will be banned?
I do believe hunting is a conservation tool, and I believe this incident will make it much more likely that lion hunting will be banned. How is that selfish?
____________________________________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett.
29 July 2015, 21:52
Heym 450/400And in all that you never considered if he was innocent or not. If he's not fine. But if your going off the media that's laughable. If your going off the Zim government press release that's worse. I don't trust what my government tells me let alone what some third world country says trying to save face
29 July 2015, 21:53
Matt Grahamquote:
Originally posted by Riverduck:
People deserve the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty.
The media won't do that of course unless the accused party is an anti-American radical.
I will give this hunter the benefit of the doubt until he is proven guilty in a reliable court of law. Not by the media or the corrupt system of law in Zim.
I think the fact that the Zim professional hunting org' walked away from him may have helped made peoples minds up. Nothing to do with the media or government there.
29 July 2015, 21:57
Heym 450/400Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.
29 July 2015, 22:00
Heym 450/400You can see it take place on this very forum. Before the Zim Press Release ever came out. There were plenty on here ready to hang him. And that was before the story changed 20 times. That tells you all you need to know about how fast we will turn on each other
29 July 2015, 22:00
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by Kathi:
Steve GI,
This is from page four on the other thread.
Knock-on Infanticide
Dr. Andrew Loveridge, one of the principal researchers on the project, says that “hunting predators on the boundaries of national parks such as Hwange causes significant disturbance and knock-on effects” such as infanticide when new males entered the prides.
Cecil was in coalition with another male lion, Jericho. Between them they had two prides consisting of six lionesses and about a dozen young cubs. Loveridge says, “Jericho as a single male will be unable to defend the two prides and cubs from new males that invade the territory. This is what we most often see happening in these cases. Infanticide is the most likely outcome.”
Loveridge states that a more recent study conducted on the socio-spatial behavior of lion population following the perturbation by sport hunting, shows “there is also growing evidence that lion populations that are socially disrupted may be more prone to coming into conflict with human communities on the boundaries of protected areas. This is largely because movement patterns become erratic and lions are more likely to leave the park.”
“These cats are complex”, explains Loveridge, “which is why disturbance of their social system has such far reaching knock-on effects.”
Loveridge also noted that “there were other irregularities in the hunt which are being investigated.” He says such examples include the fact that “in the Gwaai Conservancy no lion hunting quota was issued for 2015” and that the “GPS collar we had fitted on the lion was destroyed by the hunters.”
Am I the only one that finds it interesting that the park viewing people love and revere a lion such as "Cecil" when in reality the same animal would move into a disrupted pride and kill all the young.
Lovely species!!
29 July 2015, 22:03
Matt Grahamquote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.
In my experience of Zimbo operators they look after their own. They have to or they wouldnt be there still. You will rarely hear one bad mouth another. But that is just my experience of knowing many of them within the greater industry... others may disagree with me.
29 July 2015, 22:07
Heym 450/400quote:
Originally posted by Matt Graham:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.
In my experience of Zimbo operators they look after their own. They have to or they wouldnt be there still. You will rarely hear one bad mouth another. But that is just my experience of knowing many of them within the greater industry... others may disagree with me.
I'm sure they do.. But we can agree this is an extremely tense situation for them. I'm just casting doubt on it all till we learn some real facts. All I'm saying is no parties are to be trusted at this point. Whether it's governments, media, organizations. It's all a mess and it seems everyone is running for the hills trying to save their hides
Kathi
kathi@wildtravel.net
708-425-3552
"The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page."
29 July 2015, 22:13
Heym 450/400I'm sure it's to everyone great relief I'm outta the rest of this convo till something real comes up. I have a new truck that needs a kit and tires before hunting season to get built. If I've made some of you mad.. Just remember in the end we belong to the same organizations trying to accomplish the same goals. Good talk....
29 July 2015, 22:13
Matt Grahamquote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Graham:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.
In my experience of Zimbo operators they look after their own. They have to or they wouldnt be there still. You will rarely hear one bad mouth another. But that is just my experience of knowing many of them within the greater industry... others may disagree with me.
I'm sure they do.. But we can agree this is an extremely tense situation for them. I'm just casting doubt on it all till we learn some real facts. All I'm saying is no parties are to be trusted at this point. Whether it's governments, media, organizations. It's all a mess and it seems everyone is running for the hills trying to save their hides
You think the Zim court will unearth the truth?
29 July 2015, 22:18
MJinesCurious Heym 450/400, what is your take on the situation involving the bear from 2008 where Palmer pled guilty, just an inconvenient coincidence?
Mike
29 July 2015, 22:25
Matt Grahamquote:
Originally posted by Kathi:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33699346They posted bail in Zimbabwe.
Thanks Kathi - interesting article link at the bottom of that page... comments supporting trophy hunting of big cats!!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-3281550829 July 2015, 22:29
Heym 450/400quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Curious Heym 450/400, what is your take on the situation involving the bear from 2008 where Palmer pled guilty, just an inconvenient coincidence?
Since you asked me a question directly. I'll break my goodbye and answer
I think that when a guy shows up in Northern Wisconsin telling the guides he wants a huge bear and is willing to pay all kinds of dirty stuff takes place. I'm fairly certain he knew he was not in the zone he was supposed to be in and the guide was all to happy to take him to were. Huge bear was on bait for the right price of course. whether he learned his lesson or continued on with the same poor behavior.. We will see. Are you asking me if I'll be surprised he was heavily involved in the Zim incident? The answer would be no. But that doesn't make the rest of em not crooks. Would you be surprised if the Zim government was corrupt and trying to save face under huge media pressure?
29 July 2015, 22:50
dogcat. I wi
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Graham:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Graham:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Because they are above pressure from their government? You think they wouldn't throw one of their own under the buss to save themselves. Cmon.
In my experience of Zimbo operators they look after their own. They have to or they wouldnt be there still. You will rarely hear one bad mouth another. But that is just my experience of knowing many of them within the greater industry... others may disagree with me.
I'm sure they do.. But we can agree this is an extremely tense situation for them. I'm just casting doubt on it all till we learn some real facts. All I'm saying is no parties are to be trusted at this point. Whether it's governments, media, organizations. It's all a mess and it seems everyone is running for the hills trying to save their hides
You think the Zim court will unearth the truth?
no.
29 July 2015, 22:57
Heym 450/400Anyone notice an interesting new member who just joined?
29 July 2015, 23:11
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The only thing "wrong" - and it's a serious "wrong" - with that hunt is:
* The hunters did not have a legal quota and license
Everything else is personal ethic and perception. I wonder how many have shot a legal "park lion" without 2nd thoughts? Isn't much hunting done along park boundaries? Yet that seems to be a massive ethical point to many on here! The same people who defend canned and captive bred lion hunts in the name of "standing united for all forms of hunting" despite the equally negative PR it brings to ALL Hunting as the Cecil case has.
Sums up my position 100%. I think this argument of legality vs ethics regarding this hunt is misguided, a distraction, and is working against us.
If a hunt is illegal, it is unethical. Arguing from the standpoint of "Well, what is your opinion IF it WAS legal, would it be ethical?" is mental masturbation.
Guess what guys, this hunt WASN'T LEGAL! For me, the discussion of ethical or not ends there! Why was there no quota in the area? I don't know but I'd speculate that more than likely:
1) Lion populations in that area are not large enough to sustain limited off-take from a conservation perspective
2) The high likelihood of any lion taken in this area might very well be a park lion that doesn't represent "fair chase" conditions or add to the conservation effort as they already have "protections" within the park structure (meaning loss of habitat to farmers clearing the land for crops isn't going to happen inside the park boundaries for example).
My personal opinion is that we need to stand on the legalities here when confronting the backlash. Facts, not emotion. Legal or Not Legal depending on the existence or lack of a permit is a fact. Ethics of whether or not it was right to shoot this lion IF a permit had been issued, is emotion. Lots of subjectivity in emotion. Much less the case when sticking to the facts!
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The only thing "wrong" - and it's a serious "wrong" - with that hunt is:
* The hunters did not have a legal quota and license
Everything else is personal ethic and perception. I wonder how many have shot a legal "park lion" without 2nd thoughts? Isn't much hunting done along park boundaries? Yet that seems to be a massive ethical point to many on here! The same people who defend canned and captive bred lion hunts in the name of "standing united for all forms of hunting" despite the equally negative PR it brings to ALL Hunting as the Cecil case has.
Sums up my position 100%. I think this argument of legality vs ethics regarding this hunt is misguided, a distraction, and is working against us. If a hunt is illegal, it is unethical. Arguing from the standpoint of "Well, what is your opinion IF it WAS legal, would it be ethical?" is mental masturbation.
Guess what guys, this hunt WASN'T LEGAL! For me, the discussion of ethical or not ends there! Why was there no quota in the area? I don't know but I'd speculate that more than likely:
1) Lion populations in that area are not large enough to sustain limited off-take from a conservation perspective2) The high likelihood of any lion taken in this area might very well be a park lion that doesn't represent "fair chase" conditions or add to the conservation effort as they already have "protections" within the park structure (meaning loss of habitat to farmers clearing the land for crops isn't going to happen inside the park boundaries for example).
My personal opinion is that we need to stand on the legalities here when confronting the backlash. Facts, not emotion. Legal or Not Legal depending on the existence or lack of a permit is a fact. Ethics of whether or not it was right to shoot this lion IF a permit had been issued, is emotion. Lots of subjectivity in emotion. Much less the case when sticking to the facts!
Precisely Todd!
And exactly why this "quota swap" issue needs to be added into this discussion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
29 July 2015, 23:18
7MMNutquote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The only thing "wrong" - and it's a serious "wrong" - with that hunt is:
* The hunters did not have a legal quota and license
Everything else is personal ethic and perception. I wonder how many have shot a legal "park lion" without 2nd thoughts? Isn't much hunting done along park boundaries? Yet that seems to be a massive ethical point to many on here! The same people who defend canned and captive bred lion hunts in the name of "standing united for all forms of hunting" despite the equally negative PR it brings to ALL Hunting as the Cecil case has.
Sums up my position 100%. I think this argument of legality vs ethics regarding this hunt is misguided, a distraction, and is working against us.
If a hunt is illegal, it is unethical. Arguing from the standpoint of "Well, what is your opinion IF it WAS legal, would it be ethical?" is mental masturbation.
Guess what guys, this hunt WASN'T LEGAL! For me, the discussion of ethical or not ends there! Why was there no quota in the area? I don't know but I'd speculate that more than likely:
1) Lion populations in that area are not large enough to sustain limited off-take from a conservation perspective
2) The high likelihood of any lion taken in this area might very well be a park lion that doesn't represent "fair chase" conditions or add to the conservation effort as they already have "protections" within the park structure (meaning loss of habitat to farmers clearing the land for crops isn't going to happen inside the park boundaries for example).
My personal opinion is that we need to stand on the legalities here when confronting the backlash. Facts, not emotion. Legal or Not Legal depending on the existence or lack of a permit is a fact. Ethics of whether or not it was right to shoot this lion IF a permit had been issued, is emotion. Lots of subjectivity in emotion. Much less the case when sticking to the facts!
+1, well said Todd.
29 July 2015, 23:19
larryshoresquote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Anyone notice an interesting new member who just joined?
Should be interesting.
29 July 2015, 23:34
tom ferryI think we need to all stick together as hunters. The news and the liberal media will do everything it can to use this to stop hunting. I can tell you from personal experience that they will distort the facts. I bought an auction hunt for the first mountain lion to be legally hunted in Nebraska. It was being auctioned off by the Nebraska game and parks. when I got it senators ,governors and all the game people were congratulating me because all the money went for mountain lion research . then I walked out and the news media ,the peata people and ect were all over me. then it went nation wide and there were death trheats ,editorials,liberal senators saying bad things,and people trying to run me out of business. Even the game department then backed off the hunt and let them win! People were saying a lot of crap that wasn't true. Look it up, I know I wished the hunting community would have come to my defense. That being said shame on anyone who doesn't defend a fellow hunter till all the fact prove he did something wrong in this case. The fact he has this black bear deal is bad but that in no way proves he did anything wrong in this case.
29 July 2015, 23:43
Pa.FrankI'll not wade in on the discussion as to guilt or innocence, legal or ethical until all the facts are in but did notice a funny thing... There are hundreds of photo's posted all over the net in "Cecil stories"
but in NONE of the photo's I've seen so far, is a tracking collar visible.
NRA Benefactor.
Life is tough... It's even tougher when you're stupid... John Wayne
29 July 2015, 23:58
MinkmanI would love to go lion hunting and the question's I have are:
Consider that everything is legal, how do you know if your lion is famous and shootable?
Do they mark lions that are un-shootable? Ear streamers, dyed hair?
If a GPS collar is or isn't visible, can you shoot the lion?
29 July 2015, 23:59
dogcatquote:
Originally posted by tom ferry:
I think we need to all stick together as hunters. The news and the liberal media will do everything it can to use this to stop hunting. I can tell you from personal experience that they will distort the facts. I bought an auction hunt for the first mountain lion to be legally hunted in Nebraska. It was being auctioned off by the Nebraska game and parks. when I got it senators ,governors and all the game people were congratulating me because all the money went for mountain lion research . then I walked out and the news media ,the peata people and ect were all over me. then it went nation wide and there were death trheats ,editorials,liberal senators saying bad things,and people trying to run me out of business. Even the game department then backed off the hunt and let them win! People were saying a lot of crap that wasn't true. Look it up, I know I wished the hunting community would have come to my defense. That being said shame on anyone who doesn't defend a fellow hunter till all the fact prove he did something wrong in this case. The fact he has this black bear deal is bad but that in no way proves he did anything wrong in this case.
I agree on sticking together, however, if this is the illegal hunt it appears AND the two Zim guys knew what was going on - we should be untied to see that the guilty are punished, including the dimwit dentist.
30 July 2015, 00:09
MinkmanBTW
Did anyone catch the somewhat positive lion hunting segment with Buck Sexton on the Glenn Beck Show? His lack of prep on rhino hunting kinda pissed me off.
However, Rush called bow hunters idiots today and sounded like an environmental wacko himself.
30 July 2015, 00:17
tom ferryjust saying we don't have all the facts. I know one time I was in Tanzania and everyone knows you have a government game scout with you. Well he said he was going to set and read a book as we were hunting a wilderbeast. so we hunted then all of a sudden he ran up and yelled get back to the truck. I remember the ph going what the bloody hell. then when we got back to the truck we found out this small piece of land had just been traded or something to Kenya and it was part of their national park system. So was I guilty of hunting in a national park in Kenya? Things are different in Africa. I sure was doing everything right as far as I knew and it matched up with the gps corr of Tanzania but I later saw a map where it was part of Kenya . So I am just saying give the guy a break till the facts come out. To this day I still don't know where I was but it was fun as Africa is most of the time.
30 July 2015, 00:19
editor-antGood Evening All.
I am posting this on all the relevant links on this subject, as I believe we have been able to gather information and fact, hopefully devoid of emotion circulating at present, and which I think will answer many of the questions being posed. Please visit
www.africanhunteronline.com to see “Lion Conservation Under Threat - Cecil the Lion, the Facts”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knk-8egFXdcPa. Frank,
The collar is visible when he turns his head at about the 1:45 mark.
Kathi
kathi@wildtravel.net
708-425-3552
"The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page."
30 July 2015, 00:22
GrumulkinThe lessons I'm taking from this:
1. Don't name your lion Cecil. What a dumb name for a lion.
2. Don't hunt in Zimbabwe.
3. Choose your PH well.
4. Don't hunt your lion with a crossbow. It's interesting about all the rules about what rifle you can shoot dangerous game with and yet it's permitted to shoot a lion with a slow projectile that doesn't expand. A dumb stunt in my opinion.
5. Try to avoid a history of poaching as it doesn't look good if you get into future sketchy circumstances.
6. If you have a pet lion, keep it in a cage, on a leash, in your house or in your car.
30 July 2015, 00:35
FOsteologyGood to see all the liberals so pissed about the "
murder" of a lion while they deny planned parenthood is selling baby parts...
Ant,
Great post, thank you.
Kathi
kathi@wildtravel.net
708-425-3552
"The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page."
