Cecil the Lion Killed by American?

29 July 2015, 00:15

http://www.zimbabwesituation.c...s-in-court-tomorrow/

Cecil hunters in court tomorrow
Posted on July 28, 2015 by ZimSitRep

via Cecil hunters in court tomorrow – The Zimbabwean 28 July 2015

The killing of world famous Zimbabwean lion, Cecil, may represent just the tip of the iceberg, the president of the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe, Emmanuel Fundira has said.

Fundira told The Zimbabwean shortly after a press conference in Harare today that the killing of Cecil was a sophisticated operation conducted by a highly organised syndicate which may involve more people than those identified.

“It’s possible that some of the cases may go unnoticed and there could be collusion involving a number of individuals. The $55,000 could have found its way around a number of people,” Fundira said.

During the press conference Fundira revealed that the lion was shot at 10 pm at the beginning of this month by American Walter James Palmer from Minnesota.

“Cecil was killed using a bow hunt, a silent weapon revealing the intent to conceal what happened,” he said.

A joint press statement by SOAZ and the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority issued earlier said that the professional hunter involved, Theo Bronkhurst and the owner of Antoinette Farm, Honest Trymore Ndlovu are being charged for illegally hunting the lion.

Fundira said the killing of Cecil represented a loss for the country both in heritage and financial terms.

“The proper market value for a lion like Cecil would be around $100,000”.

“Since this was not a legal hunt it means this money is not directly accruing to the people and government of Zimbabwe. The area where the lion was killed did not have a hunting quota for lions for 2015”.

The SOAZ president refuted what he called allegations in the international media that Cecil’s death illustrated poor wildlife conservation.

“We are very conscious of conservation and we use hunting as a conservation tool and we use quotas. The hunting methods we use involves the use of a fair chase which still provides the required experience for the tourist even when the animal might not get killed,” he said.

Cecil was part of an Oxford University research project and wore a GPS collar.

“We lost an icon. Cecil was very well known in the international community. The absence of Cecil is a disaster in terms of the disappointment it has caused,” Fundira said.

Ndlovu and Bronkhurst will appear in court tomorrow, Wednesday July 29. Bronkhorst’s licence has also been suspended with immediate effect. The lion trophy has been confiscated and will be used as an exhibit in court.

Bonkhorst has also been suspended from The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association.

Accrding to Fundira Bronkhorst’s son, Zane who was being sought by the police has been caught

29 July 2015, 00:26

Bwana Bunduki

quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
if nothing else, this points out just how much we rely on the people we contract with.

Can't be the hunting company or PHs fault. The only possible explanation is that he intentionally went to Zim to hunt down Cecil on a park boundary and he was being unethical and selfish. The Internet jury has spoken. Case closed

He has been around the block enough to know that paying out 35k or 55k to a game scout or whatever figure he was was definitely non-puka. So no that argument doesn't hold water either.

Jeff

29 July 2015, 00:27

Duckear

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I know a bit of about the bear case Palmer paid big dollars to get a big bear.

The guides decide that they would do what ever it took to get him a big bear.

They did and were caught.

Hmmmmm, one online article showed his pic with a royal elk.

He certainly seems to be the hunter that is able to get one amazing trophy after another.

29 July 2015, 00:31

Heym 450/400

quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
if nothing else, this points out just how much we rely on the people we contract with.

Can't be the hunting company or PHs fault. The only possible explanation is that he intentionally went to Zim to hunt down Cecil

on a park boundary and he was being unethical and selfish. The Internet jury has spoken. Case closed

He has been around the block enough to know that paying out 35k or 55k to a game scout or whatever figure he was was definitely non-puka. So no that argument doesn't hold water either.

Jeff

Where does it say he did? It says the money could of been spread around to multiple people. Doesn't say who did the spreading

29 July 2015, 00:31

p dog shooter

quote:
Originally posted by Duckear:
quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I know a bit of about the bear case Palmer paid big dollars to get a big bear.

The guides decide that they would do what ever it took to get him a big bear.

They did and were caught.

With enough money one can buy most of what one wants.

Hmmmmm, one online article showed his pic with a royal elk.

He certainly seems to be the hunter that is able to get one amazing trophy after another.

29 July 2015, 00:32

larryshores

quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
if nothing else, this points out just how much we rely on the people we contract with.

Can't be the hunting company or PHs fault. The only possible explanation is that he intentionally went to Zim to hunt down Cecil on a park boundary and he was being unethical and selfish. The Internet jury has spoken. Case closed

He has been around the block enough to know that paying out 35k or 55k to a game scout or whatever figure he was was definitely non-puka. So no that argument doesn't hold water either.

Jeff

Maybe that is what he paid to Bronkhorst.

29 July 2015, 00:34

Heym 450/400

It's funny to me that anyone who has been to Africa can say they know exactly what takes place behind the scenes with your money before or after you arrive. The PH could have took me right inside a park boundary and how would I or you ever know. You wouldn't and you couldn't. You are at the complete mercy of them following the laws and keeping you legal. 99.9% of the time

29 July 2015, 00:35

Bwana Bunduki

quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
if nothing else, this points out just how much we rely on the people we contract with.

Can't be the hunting company or PHs fault. The only possible explanation is that he intentionally went to Zim to hunt down Cecil

on a park boundary and he was being unethical and selfish. The Internet jury has spoken. Case closed

He has been around the block enough to know that paying out 35k or 55k to a game scout or whatever figure he was was definitely non-puka. So no that argument doesn't hold water either.

Jeff

Where does it say he did? It says the money could of been spread around to multiple people. Doesn't say who did the spreading

You attempted to make the point that he wasn't being unethical and selfish. Obviously he was. More so than just shooting a pet. He was breaking laws too.

Jeff

29 July 2015, 00:35

larryshores

My guess is that if the American is prosecuted in Zim, hunting there is doomed. Who would go back knowing that there was a risk if the safari company was not 100% accurate in everything?

Hell, when I go, I assume that we are in the right place with proper permits, quotas, etc. The facts are that I really do not know.

Food for thought.

29 July 2015, 00:39

Bwana Bunduki

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
My guess is that if the American is prosecuted in Zim, hunting there is doomed. Who would go back knowing that there was a risk if the safari company was not 100% accurate in everything?

Hell, when I go, I assume that we are in the right place with proper permits, quotas, etc. The facts are that I really do not know.

Food for thought.

You know you could be right. A huge dupe job? But how do you even make contact with these types?

Jeff

29 July 2015, 00:41

Heym 450/400

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
My guess is that if the American is prosecuted in Zim, hunting there is doomed. Who would go back knowing that there was a risk if the safari company was not 100% accurate in everything?

Hell, when I go, I assume that we are in the right place with proper permits, quotas, etc. The facts are that I really do not know.

Food for thought.

That's all I'm trying to say.. It seems laws were broke. But I'm way more inclined to point the finger at the landowner, hunting company, and PH than I am to imediatly say the hunter knew everything that was taking place. You are very likely to never realize you are near a park boundary let alone know that the lion your about to shoot is from there

29 July 2015, 00:41

Frostbit

quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
My guess is that if the American is prosecuted in Zim, hunting there is doomed. Who would go back knowing that there was a risk if the safari company was not 100% accurate in everything?

Hell, when I go, I assume that we are in the right place with proper permits, quotas, etc. The facts are that I really do not know.

Food for thought.

You know you could be right. A huge dupe job? But how do you even make contact with these types?

Jeff

The Society of the Record Book.

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29 July 2015, 00:48

Heym 450/400

How many times have we seen a novice safari hunter return from SA with a story of killing a wild cattle killing lion by the border of Botswana.. And truly believe that's what took place? Why... Because they were fed a story and relied on the PH to tell them what's going on.

When the plane lands on that little strip of dirt and you jump in the truck you are relying on your PH from that moment on to keep you legal. Hell.. He could drive you 10 miles outside the consession and you would have no clue.

29 July 2015, 00:53

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
if nothing else, this points out just how much we rely on the people we contract with.

Can't be the hunting company or PHs fault. The only possible explanation is that he intentionally went to Zim to hunt down Cecil on a park boundary and he was being unethical and selfish. The Internet jury has spoken. Case closed

I am sure that Palmer is pure as the driven snow. He undoubtedly was intentionally misled and misinformed by his PH and had no idea what he was getting to. He just could not believe his remarkable good luck that a fully mature black maned wild lion happened to hit one of the baits his PH put out. Some people are just lucky that way. And of course his previous conviction for violating hunting laws is completely unrelated.

29 July 2015, 00:53

p dog shooter

Anti hunters hate hunters no matter what they do.

Trying to make them happy is just a big lost for us not matter what.

29 July 2015, 00:56

AilsaWheels

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
if nothing else, this points out just how much we rely on the people we contract with.

Instead of the dentist, should we be directing our ire at the PH/Outfitter/Landowner?

Some members here might not take on a hunt like this because it doesn't pass the smell test. There are a lot of hunters that don't have the experience or don't spend inordinate amounts of time on hunting forums. My guess is that a large majority of American's that hunt Africa could find themselves in this predicament.

Scary.

29 July 2015, 00:57

Heym 450/400

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
if nothing else, this points out just how much we rely on the people we contract with.

Can't be the hunting company or PHs fault. The only possible explanation is that he intentionally went to Zim to hunt down Cecil on a park boundary and he was being unethical and selfish. The Internet jury has spoken. Case closed

I am sure that Palmer is pure as the driven snow. He undoubtedly was intentionally misled and misinformed by his PH and had no idea what he was getting to. He just could not believe his remarkable good luck that a fully mature black maned wild lion happened to hit one of the baits his PH put out. Some people are just lucky that way. And of course his previous conviction for violating hunting laws is completely unrelated.

Actually that more likely than calling up a hunting outfit in Zim and saying.. Hey I wanna shoot Cecil. You know that park lion that your area butts up against. Let's talk cash

29 July 2015, 00:58

Bwana Bunduki

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Anti hunters hate hunters no matter what they do.

Trying to make them happy is just a big lost for us not matter what.

Plenty of hunters and fence sitters are enraged by this brainless crap. That is what you don't get.

Jeff

29 July 2015, 01:04

Heym 450/400

We are not arguing whether the hunt was legal or not. That is for the courts to decide. I'm simply saying the hunter could of easly been led to believe he was hunting a wild lion no where near a park boundary. And after the fact the PH could of gave him any story he wanted about the collar and anything else the hunter became suspicious of.

29 July 2015, 01:08

JGRaider

At what point do you reckon the "hunter" realized the lion had a collar on? Legal or not, it's obviously horrible PR.

29 July 2015, 01:16

Heym 450/400

quote:
Originally posted by JGRaider:
At what point do you reckon the "hunter" realized the lion had a collar on? Legal or not, it's obviously horrible PR.

I've never seen a lion with a collar on.. However Mr. Neilson has indicated that it's almost impossible to tell. He has more experience with lion than I ever hope to.. So I'll take his word for it. And I agree it's horrible PR. But that doesn't make the hunter guilty. I'm 99.9% sure the company and PH are guilty but until more facts come out I believe the hunter was mislead. We have seen it many times before right on this forum. Now imagine all the times you have never heard it. I suspect it's fairly common

29 July 2015, 01:19

larryshores

quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I'm simply saying the hunter could of easly been led to believe he was hunting a wild lion no where near a park boundary. .

I think you are 100% correct. Most of us have no clue where we are at after entering the country.

It makes me think about being on a hunt once in Zim. We crossed a 2 rut bush road. A very minor road at that. The PH stopped and said "Remember when you said you wanted to go to Mozambique? You are now in it." He turned around and walked back across the road. I had no idea. None zero!

We seriously rely on these guys.

29 July 2015, 01:23

JGRaider

I've been under the impression that ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. Wasn't this hunter involved in some sort of shady bear hunt too a few years ago?

29 July 2015, 01:26

Heym 450/400

quote:
Originally posted by JGRaider:
I've been under the impression that ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. Wasn't this hunter involved in some sort of shady bear hunt too a few years ago?

In the eyes of the law it is no excuse.. But at the same time if you rely on your PH to keep you legal you are in a real tough spot to be sure.

His bear hunt has no bearing on this case.. It can be used to cast suspicion but it doesn't mean he knowingly violated Zim game laws

29 July 2015, 01:31

JGRaider

I'm not saying he's guilty either. Who knows? I would say he's in deep schitt though. Real deep.

29 July 2015, 01:34

Heym 450/400

I agree.. Would any of the law types on here help the rest of us understand how this case might play out internationally so to speak? How does this work when you are a citizen of the USA and are charged with a game violation act in another country?

29 July 2015, 01:35

jeff32

Is he a member of SCI or DSC?

29 July 2015, 01:49

MJines

Google the Lacey Act . . . I am sure Palmer has.

29 July 2015, 01:51

larryshores

Mike:

Is import into the US a requirement to violate the Lacey Act?

29 July 2015, 01:59

Heym 450/400

From the little I understand about it. It also applies to the illegal taking of game in another country as well. He will be charged with a lacy act violation and considering the PR of this particular case. He is in deep deep......

He's gonna need a good lawyer.. Maybe a dozen of em

29 July 2015, 02:11

BNagel

Well, he's done being a dentist. That part is for sure.

29 July 2015, 02:17

Opus1

It's a looong, twisty road from what happens in the bush to what is reported by the media - especially the "local" media. I would hold condemnation until all the facts are known.

About all we know for sure is he apparently shot a pet lion and people are pissed. No great surprise there.

29 July 2015, 02:24

MJines

Lacey Act makes it illegal to "import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire or purchase in interstate commerce or foreign commerce" wildlife "taken . . . in violation of any foreign law." To me it comes down to how broadly the courts and the USFWS have construed or choose to construe that first phrase, e.g., was the payment of a trophy fee a "purchase"? For example, the sale of outfitting or guide services or a hunting license is considered a sale under the Act. You can rest assured they will be working hard to come up with a plausible case. In the past folks like Ted Nugent and Dan Duncan have also had to deal with Lacey Act issues.