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Under Armour- stop whining and do something
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If I had any critique of the bear spearing film - it would be the fact that they left the bear out there overnight! It appeared to be a lethal hit, he claimed it was a good lethal hit, I would have to think that thing was bleeding like hell with a blade like that - and I bet it died fairly quickly! Yet he said it was too dangerous to do the follow up at night, really? Listen, don't show/tell us how bad and brave you are to hunt potentially "dangerous" game with a primitive spear, but then when the situation gets a bit primitive/dangerous, you're not up for it. I believe leaving the bear out overnight, and showing that on film - was part of the ammo used in the opposition's argument


Amen Brother...well stated!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 36367 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Bottom line - do I wish U/A had continued their support for Bowmar's wife, and the hunt in question? Most certainly!! Would I personally spear a bear? If I were as efficient with a spear as he was - most definitely!! Would I film it / put it on social media - likely no. Not after the experiences I've had over the past few years.


+1


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 36367 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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+2!
 
Posts: 6080 | Location: New York City "The Concrete Jungle" | Registered: 04 May 2003Reply With Quote
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This stuff never ceases to amaze me. Even the most oblivious should be able to see that we are under attack. Yet, when I read some of the comments on this and the other thread, I just shake my head. Are you all really that blind and oblivious that you can't see the end game here?

This is not just about a stupid video posted on line. This is not just about hunting with a spear. The other side not only wants us to stop hunting, they want us to to become vegans.

Sit around all you want. Discuss why this was not ethical,why you don't care, why you aren't mad at Cabela's and on and on and on. We are losing and losing big.

If we don't all get together and fight this the other side, the day is coming when we will lose the sport we all love so much.

Now gentlemen, carry on.
 
Posts: 11902 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by larryshores:
This stuff never ceases to amaze me. Even the most oblivious should be able to see that we are under attack. Yet, when I read some of the comments on this and the other thread, I just shake my head. Are you all really that blind and oblivious that you can't see the end game here?

This is not just about a stupid video posted on line. This is not just about hunting with a spear. The other side not only wants us to stop hunting, they want us to to become vegans.

Sit around all you want. Discuss why this was not ethical,why you don't care, why you aren't mad at Cabela's and on and on and on. We are losing and losing big.

If we don't all get together and fight this the other side, the day is coming when we will lose the sport we all love so much.

Now gentlemen, carry on.


Amen Larry!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 36367 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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What is it YOU do not understand about the concept that as a GROUP, hunters simply Can Not nor Will Not set aside their personal beliefs and unite against the common enemy.

You are correct, hunters WorldWide are under attack, by people that ARE Organised! That is something hunters are not going to do, they simply cannot stop finding reasons to accuse other hunters of not being ethical, because of the way they hunt.

Does not matter to too many "Hunters" that what someone else is doing is completely legal, they do not believe it is ethical, therefore the people "Hunting" that way are not REAL HUNTERS.

Unless or until Hunters are able to set aside their OWN Personal hang-ups about what is or is not hunting/who is or is not a REAL hunter, we are going to continue down the slide into losing our ability to hunt.


Here is a "Classic" from Dogcat:

quote:
Milan, I agree 100%. Baited hunts for birds is illegal, why not for deer and other game animals?

Hello, any ethics out there??????

I just love it when Jerry Raglan or Mikey Waddell and others get all camo'ed up to sit in a deer stand (box with heater) and shoot enhanced deer over a timed feeder.....

That speaks volumes about our current day hunters and our ethics. We teach our kids that this is our "tradition" or our "culture" to shoot animals baited and trained to come to a certain place at a certain time of the day to for a meal. I quit deer hunting because of this practice.


Notice not one damn word about lion or leopard hunting over a bait, What is the difference. Then Beretta682 agrees with those thoughts.

Then look at the folks that commented that if it is LEGAL, that is all that matters! Sorry Mr. Shores, I actually do agree and honestly WISH that 'Hunters" could put aside all the personal ethics and beliefs and understand that by not forming a United Front to combat the propaganda put out by the Anti's we will ALL lose in the long run.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Notice not one damn word about lion or leopard hunting over a bait, What is the difference.


One has spots.


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Posts: 9840 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
What is it YOU do not understand about the concept that as a GROUP, hunters simply Can Not nor Will Not set aside their personal beliefs and unite against the common enemy.

You are correct, hunters WorldWide are under attack, by people that ARE Organised! That is something hunters are not going to do, they simply cannot stop finding reasons to accuse other hunters of not being ethical, because of the way they hunt.

Does not matter to too many "Hunters" that what someone else is doing is completely legal, they do not believe it is ethical, therefore the people "Hunting" that way are not REAL HUNTERS.

Unless or until Hunters are able to set aside their OWN Personal hang-ups about what is or is not hunting/who is or is not a REAL hunter, we are going to continue down the slide into losing our ability to hunt.


Here is a "Classic" from Dogcat:

quote:
Milan, I agree 100%. Baited hunts for birds is illegal, why not for deer and other game animals?

Hello, any ethics out there??????

I just love it when Jerry Raglan or Mikey Waddell and others get all camo'ed up to sit in a deer stand (box with heater) and shoot enhanced deer over a timed feeder.....

That speaks volumes about our current day hunters and our ethics. We teach our kids that this is our "tradition" or our "culture" to shoot animals baited and trained to come to a certain place at a certain time of the day to for a meal. I quit deer hunting because of this practice.


Notice not one damn word about lion or leopard hunting over a bait, What is the difference. Then Beretta682 agrees with those thoughts.

Then look at the folks that commented that if it is LEGAL, that is all that matters! Sorry Mr. Shores, I actually do agree and honestly WISH that 'Hunters" could put aside all the personal ethics and beliefs and understand that by not forming a United Front to combat the propaganda put out by the Anti's we will ALL lose in the long run.


Crazy and others,
Love how you quote me. Please do it. I appreciate it and stand by my words. Just so you and others understand - ethics defines the "why" and the "how" of what we do as hunters. Without ethics or a general agreement on ethics, we are people who act without thinking or questioning what we do, how we do it and why we do it. Without an ethical base, there is nothing in the world of hunting/fishing to defend. We lose our privilege to hunt or fish or whatever consumptive hobby we have. Without ethics, we have already lost the war - not just the battle or fight. That was largely the entire Cecil the Lion fiasco. Where were the ethics in targeting a well known animal, that was familiar with the smells and sounds of people, baiting him regularly to get him out of the park to establish a pattern of movement, then calling the "hunter" to come shoot this lion as a "trophy"?

There were no ethics in this - not in the entire process! It was a set up of the lion and a set up of the hunter playing to his (an our desire) to "accomplish" something of value. The process defines the value of the accomplishment. Read that again THE PROCESS DEFINES THE VALUE OF THE ACCOMPLISHMENT!!!!

Oh, here is a word on leopards or lions over bait - I DID NOT HUNT THAT WAY! We used bait to locate the animal then pursued it in the day light. If you want the details on my hunts, read the reports.

This entire war is over the ethics of hunting. If you cannot define and defend your ethics on why and how you hunt - we lose. I hope you think this through. Hunting is a privilege, it is not a "right". Some states may have stated it is a "right" in the laws of that state, but it is not a right per our constitution. Each of the "rights" in our constitution were stated as a result of ethics - "why" and "how" were the questions that had to be answered and defended in order to get that "right" garaunteed to us.

None of us on AR hunt for subsistence. If you can own a computer and an email account, you are not a subsistence hunter. So the ethical argument that "we hunt to survive" does not work. Ask yourself, why do I hunt, how do I hunt, what is the desired outcome of my hunting hobby? Build your personal ethical standard on those answers and then compare to others such as Aldo Leopold and a host of others.

This is not "the world hates hunters and rednecks" war we are in! This is a foundational cultural shift that we will lose unless we can articulate why we love to do what we do....

Does that clarify my position??? I hope so.
 
Posts: 10079 | Location: Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Folks,

I think we need to put our own self righteousness aside and make a decision. Are we willing to put up with a few guys doing what offends us personally and still have hunting available as we know it or is it so important that we criticize what we don't like that we are willing to help the antis end all hunting. Personally I think it really is that simple. Look! The antis don't just dislike one type of hunting or one particular weapon used they dislike it all. We need to get off our proverbial high horse and get it that we are all in this together regardless of the self aggrandizing few.

Mark


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Posts: 12838 | Location: LAS VEGAS, NV USA | Registered: 04 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

I think we need to put our own self righteousness aside and make a decision. Are we willing to put up with a few guys doing what offends us personally and still have hunting available as we know it or is it so important that we criticize what we don't like that we are willing to help the antis end all hunting. Personally I think it really is that simple. Look! The antis don't just dislike one type of hunting or one particular weapon used they dislike it all. We need to get off our proverbial high horse and get it that we are all in this together regardless of the self aggrandizing few.

Mark


Hi Mark.

Our opposition doesn't bother to fragment themselves by matters of degree's.

We on the other hand do. We are divided by; species hunted, manner of take, time of take, place of take, videos posted, pictures posted.

It no secret that I fall into the camp of "keep it off the internet completely." I still stand by those words. Hell, we are so damn divided, even on this issue that I received a PM from "ONE OF US" with a link to the Phoenix Chapter SCI site showing some trophy photographs of myself. I took it as a veiled threat to post them. Times are far different now than they were even 4 or 5 short years ago.

Those were posted 7-8 years ago? Heck I haven't even been on the BOD for 6 or 7 years.

Point is, we will never be cohesive in our efforts at conservation or a cogent, sober pro-hunting message. Basically, were screwed.


Formerly "Nganga"
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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Does that clarify my position??? I hope so.


Yes Sir it does, quite clearly, you do not care if hunting is lost to everyone.

If it is not undertaken by YOUR standards than it needs to end.

Sorry Sir, Personal Ethics are NOT a "One Size Fits All" in ANY activity humans are involved in been that way asa long as there have been humans.

Legalities are the base concept. Just because I hunt deer or pigs over a feeder here in Texas, does not mean I like it, but it is LEGAL and my ethics tell me I will be making cleaner kills with less chance of lost game.

You are entitled to your own Personal ideology as far as hunting is concerned, try to remember that all of the rest of us that enjoy hunting are entitled to OURS.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

I think we need to put our own self righteousness aside and make a decision. Are we willing to put up with a few guys doing what offends us personally and still have hunting available as we know it or is it so important that we criticize what we don't like that we are willing to help the antis end all hunting. Personally I think it really is that simple. Look! The antis don't just dislike one type of hunting or one particular weapon used they dislike it all. We need to get off our proverbial high horse and get it that we are all in this together regardless of the self aggrandizing few.

Mark


Spot on Mark.

I've stated many times on this forum, ethics are largely the product of the local methods you were introduced to when you were introduced to hunting in the first place. Here in Texas, that means largely hunting deer over corn feeders. For the record, I LIKE IT! I also enjoy a hard earned hunt in trying conditions such as chasing elk in the San Juan mountains of Colorado, or tracking elephant in the December heat of the Zambezi. But I can appreciate an enjoyable, relaxing afternoon sitting in a "comfortable" box blind, enjoying the sights and sounds of nature, with a reasonable expectation of seeing a few deer at the feeder late in the day. OH and BTW, in 48 years of hunting over feeders (more or less as I missed a few seasons while in the military), I've yet to shoot a "trophy buck" eating under a feeder! It's not as simple as ringing the dinner bell. As a side note, is there any difference in hunting a corn feeder in Texas and hunting the edges of a corn field in the heartland?

Cecil the lion? I got into some heated discussions on this forum regarding ethics / legalities on that one. The fact is the hunt was conducted without proper permits for the land where it took place. From my perspective, that's where the discussion should have started and ended. Illegal trumps unethical as ethics are personal while law applies to everyone ... except Hillary!

Spear hunting a bear, buffalo, etc.? If you're proficient, why not. I would think sharpening a stick is how this whole hunting thing got started in the first place. Would I do it. Well, I'm not proficient at it so I'd say no. Do I object to anyone else doing it? More power to you if you can pull it off. Chasing mountain lions or bears up a tree with dogs and shooting them from the ground. Doesn't interest me really. Should you be able to do it. Absolutely. Calling a flock of ducks into range over a spread of decoys? Calling a bobcat or fox into range with an electronic caller? At night with a spot light? Baiting for leopard? Lion? How about alligator "hunting" whereby the means of take is a piece of chicken on a hook and line tied to a tree, then you check your lines a few hours later and shoot the lizard with a .22LR prior to loading him into the boat. Yep, I've done that one. Got a nice pair of gator boots to prove it. Any interest in doing it again. Less than Zero! But that's the way it's done in the area I "hunted" and I'll support those guys rights to continue doing so. It's how they were raised. Where does this personal ethics line get drawn in a manner we can all agree on? I say, it's drawn at the local game law. After all, most local game laws reflect the local traditional means of take in the first place. A good example being the differing areas where one can hunt leopard at night with the aid of a light or areas where it is daylight take only. The areas where the light is permissible are usually areas where leopard are "educated" to hunting methods and are likely never to show their spots in the light of day.

So yep, I'm throwing out my UA gear. I try to support companies that support all legal means of hunting ... whether or not I participate in all of those means. The antis couldn't care less about the method of take regarding game animals. They care ONLY that the animals are hunted in the first place. We kid ourselves about ethics saving the sport of hunting. Most of the game laws I'm aware of already attempt to ensure an ethical approach (according to local traditions) to hunting activities. I doubt there are any on this forum that would defend breaking game laws. With a clear cut violation per the Cecil case, why anyone one would debate beyond the fact that game laws were broken, is beyond me. Hunting a bear with a spear, if it was a legal hunt, why would we as hunters not stand up for him?
 
Posts: 8482 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
quote:
Does that clarify my position??? I hope so.


Yes Sir it does, quite clearly, you do not care if hunting is lost to everyone.

If it is not undertaken by YOUR standards than it needs to end.

Sorry Sir, Personal Ethics are NOT a "One Size Fits All" in ANY activity humans are involved in been that way asa long as there have been humans.

Legalities are the base concept. Just because I hunt deer or pigs over a feeder here in Texas, does not mean I like it, but it is LEGAL and my ethics tell me I will be making cleaner kills with less chance of lost game.

You are entitled to your own Personal ideology as far as hunting is concerned, try to remember that all of the rest of us that enjoy hunting are entitled to OURS.


Crazy,
I think you misinterpreted my point.

1. Obviously I do care about hunting or I would not hunt. Plus I have several hunts booked and plan to continue hunting.

2. Ethics are what drive the laws, not the other way around. My point is that if we do not have a reason or an ethic for why we do what we do and how we do it - we lose the privilege to do it. I was not stating that my ethics are perfect or that you should follow them. I merely stated that I had a hunting ethic that would not allow for spearing an animal in the manner it was done. Then the discussion went to trying to penalize the seller of equipment that sponsored the spear hunter, then to not supporting Cabela's because they sell Under Armour. Well, what about the 50 or so other Under Armour distributors such as Academy, Bass Pro and others?

3. A hunting method in a certain country is not ethics. It is "common practice". This is much like baiting ducks and geese in the USA 80 years ago. It was "common practice". Eventually, the ethics of that "common practice" came under question and the practice was banned as illegal and unethical. Up until 25 years ago, a tag for an animal could be shared in a group of hunters. The "common practice" was that I could shoot several deer as long as the group I was with had tags. That was "common practice" until the ethics were questioned and the practice was banned. If you chose to hunt leopards over bait at night in a country where that practice is legal - by all means you are free to do it. Because it is legal does not make it ethical. Eventually, that "common practice" could change based on the ethics of what you are doing and the harm/benefit to the wildlife resource.

4. This is why we have bag limits and restrictions on calibers and so on. It is ethics that brought the "common practice" into question, then a law was passed.

We are all in this together and I fully support the efforts of SCI, DSC, DU, Izaak Walton League and a host of others to inform our governing authorities on what the sporting community is doing and how we all work together for the resource. The enemy is well known and if we continue to "create our own ethics" without a base of understanding, self scrutiny and understanding of the resource, our cause is lost.

Of course you are free to create your own ethics. The pro-slavery did it for several hundred years to justify their actions - but all know it was wrong and based on the wrong "common practice". Our methods of hunting have changed in the same manner over the years. We no longer chase a herd of buffalo over cliff to kill them. We no longer bait waterfowl or migratory birds, we no long fish with poison or explosives - yet these were "common practice" and ethical in the day long ago.

By all means - choose your own ethics! But the responsibility is to choose wisely, thoughtfully and honestly. Laws will follow at some point.

I wish I were a bit more eloquent on this issue, as I believe some are mis-reading what I am saying.
 
Posts: 10079 | Location: Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Let me add an example -

I just finished reading a book by Gordon Cummings on his hunting in South Africa in the 1800's. He shot literally hundreds of animals and a lot of elephants. He lost as many as he shot. He fired into herds hoping to hit one or two of what ever. He was raised in England. He appears to be a smart, intelligent person. He mentions ethics at times in his book. His actions were likely "common practice" and ethical at that time.

Over time, however, all of his practices were deemed un-ethically and illegal due to the methods, the loss/waste of game and the suffering inflicted.

What changed first - the ethics or laws? Well, the ethics of course, followed by the laws.

Just because we hunt deer over timed feeders or in high fenced pastures now, does not mean it is going to be viewed as ethical or even legal in the future. Hence my push that we examine ourselves and make ethical decisions on our behalf that will reflect well on our privilege to hunt - and we will not always have to fight among ourselves or with authorities over laws that force us to be ethical.

Again, this is not easy to write out but I am giving it my best.
 
Posts: 10079 | Location: Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Dogcat..you make some good points. I would like to say that in my eyes it's important to support those hunters who are currently participating in legal hunting activities even as the ethics may or may not be slowly changing. Non of us have a crystal ball, spear hunting my be all the rage and much more accepted in a few years. Or maybe not. The point is...to stand together today
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

I think we need to put our own self righteousness aside and make a decision. Are we willing to put up with a few guys doing what offends us personally and still have hunting available as we know it or is it so important that we criticize what we don't like that we are willing to help the antis end all hunting. Personally I think it really is that simple. Look! The antis don't just dislike one type of hunting or one particular weapon used they dislike it all. We need to get off our proverbial high horse and get it that we are all in this together regardless of the self aggrandizing few.

Mark


Mark,
I appreciate your perspective and comment. Let me offer that this is not "self righteousness" when I talk about ethics. Self-righteousness is saying "my idea/method/person is better than your and I can justify it by my own bias's". What I am talking about is a serious self introspection on why we do what we do and how we do it. For example, what SCI promotes to some extent is a competition against others or ourselves of what is the biggest animal/horns/antlers. We measure it and compare it to what others have killed. Method must be legal but there are "ethical boundaries" that can be crossed when compared to Boone and Crocket or National Wildlife Federation or Izaak Walton League positions on "ethical hunting". When the "anti's" point at us, we are all grouped together as killers and worse.

I am not offended by a spear hunter. I am offended that it is a stunt, even though legal, to gain attention. Why draw attention to yourself in that manner? To me, his actions are unethical but not illegal.

We are all in this together yet we need to be able to defend what we do, why we do it and how we do it in a logical, ethically thought out manner. The "anti's" cannot truly do this as they rely on emotion to make their arguments. YOu know this as they do virtually nothing for the resource other than attempt to restrict out access to it. We pay for the conservation programs, we put in the time to do the volunteer work, we are the protector of the wildlife we love to pursue. However, unless we articulate it well, in a united voice, we will loose. That is the reason for my comments on ethics.
 
Posts: 10079 | Location: Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by dogcat:
Let me add an example -

I just finished reading a book by Gordon Cummings on his hunting in South Africa in the 1800's. He shot literally hundreds of animals and a lot of elephants. He lost as many as he shot. He fired into herds hoping to hit one or two of what ever. He was raised in England. He appears to be a smart, intelligent person. He mentions ethics at times in his book. His actions were likely "common practice" and ethical at that time.

Over time, however, all of his practices were deemed un-ethically and illegal due to the methods, the loss/waste of game and the suffering inflicted.

What changed first - the ethics or laws? Well, the ethics of course, followed by the laws.

Just because we hunt deer over timed feeders or in high fenced pastures now, does not mean it is going to be viewed as ethical or even legal in the future. Hence my push that we examine ourselves and make ethical decisions on our behalf that will reflect well on our privilege to hunt - and we will not always have to fight among ourselves or with authorities over laws that force us to be ethical.

Again, this is not easy to write out but I am giving it my best.


I think this exchange between you and Randall is a solid example of the problem we are facing.

I have my own views on the morality or lack there of in means of take and methods, but tend to keep them to myself. My issue is the greater good and the continuation of a sport.

I've been consistent in my opposition to allowing the non and anti-hunting movement, a glimpse into the most intimate of activities we partake in, The taking of a life.

There is no upside into it. We have absolutely nothing to be gained by doing so. Posting inflammatory pictures and videos' will be the end of our international sporting travel.

A binary choice we have.


Formerly "Nganga"
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Dogcat..you make some good points. I would like to say that in my eyes it's important to support those hunters who are currently participating in legal hunting activities even as the ethics may or may not be slowly changing. Non of us have a crystal ball, spear hunting my be all the rage and much more accepted in a few years. Or maybe not. The point is...to stand together today


Heym,
I agree with you.
 
Posts: 10079 | Location: Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Ross, I find that I agree with 99% of your very well-expressed opinions.

The list of things that are legal in some and even many places, but that ethical people refuse to do, is a long one: smoke dope, gamble away one's rent or mortgage money, hire prostitutes and on and on.

Having a difference of opinion on what one should do as a hunter is not a sign of weakness.

Can such differences be exploited by anti-hunting groups? Of course.

There is a marketplace of ideas with respect to hunting as there is for all other human endeavors. It's up to us to openly discuss and, if needed, to defend what we do.

If we lose our rights to hunt (or any other rights) because we are afraid to discuss such matters, and afraid to expose differences of opinion regarding such matters, then we deserve to lose them.


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13306 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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I wish I were a bit more eloquent on this issue, as I believe some are mis-reading what I am saying.


Just a thought here, but maybe no one, including me, is misreading what your saying. You have your own set of ethics, and you honestly believe that every person that claims to be a hunter, should follow YOUR PERSONAL set of ethics.

The people trying to take hunting away from us, Do Not Care whether we are all hunting "Ethically", "Legally" or are just flat out "Poachers, without Ethics or any regard for Legalities", they want hunting in any form STOPPED!

You, me, ALL OF US, that do not want to lose the ability to hunt, have ONE of TWO clear cut choices, either we swallow our individual prejudices and stand together, or we turn our backs and let the anti's take hunting away from us.

I killed my first deer here in Texas in 1970, and for several years, with the exception of a couple instances, all of the deer I killed were taken by spot and stalk, no blind/no timed feeder.

As deer hunting gained popularity here in Texas, things changed and landowners did not want folks wandering around their properties with a gun.

I guess what is needed is for every person wanting to hunt, to fill out a form concerning ethics and if they do not pass, then they can not buy a license that year.

What I always find sad about these type discussions, is the basic concept that none of us want to see hunting taken away from us, but we simply cannot set aside Personal Ideologies concerning an activity we love to find enough common ground to stand united. Real Pity.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
This entire war is over the ethics of hunting.


Absolutely wrong. The "entire war" is between people who think animals should not be killed BY ANY MEANS, especially by hunters who do it for sport, and those who disagree, most of whom are hunters. Ethics is only a way for THEM to divide US.


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NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
quote:
This entire war is over the ethics of hunting.


Absolutely wrong. The "entire war" is between people who think animals should not be killed BY ANY MEANS, especially by hunters who do it for sport, and those who disagree, most of whom are hunters. Ethics is only a way for THEM to divide US.


Good point Gatogordo, but we've been fairly successful dividing ourselves up without their help.

Steve


Formerly "Nganga"
 
Posts: 3309 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
quote:
This entire war is over the ethics of hunting.


Absolutely wrong. The "entire war" is between people who think animals should not be killed BY ANY MEANS, especially by hunters who do it for sport, and those who disagree, most of whom are hunters. Ethics is only a way for THEM to divide US.


But the opposition is much smarter and playing the long game. they have not taken their core position - animals should not be killed and made it their central theme. In their heart of hearts that is what they believe but they also know it is a losing proposition.

If animals should not be killed then the diet consumption and lifestyle of 80 percent of the world is impacted and no one can own dogs or cats so the entire segment of society that is pet owners if off limits.

Hell in India that is the most populous vegetarian ideological society (not the reality but just idealogical) even in the most pro vegetarian regional states most Mercedes, Audis and other high end cars are sold with leather seats and all the pure vegetarians happily wear Italian leather belt and shoes.

So I would say the true animal rights activist are less than 2 percent of the population. Hunters are 5-10. The great middle is a meat consuming and animal product using middle that likes it protein delivered shrink wrapped.

The animal rights activist know that using their core ideological beliefs is a non starter - they may have stupid beliefs but they are practical in that they use the worst example of hunting as the defining theme. The bear spear hunting does little to advance hunting - it was a stupid gimmick where the participants searched a jurisdiction where this act (spear hunting) was not banned. After the gimmick hunt the jurisdiction banned the practice.

So if the standard is everything legal is okay - spear hunting a bear is no longer okay or legal in Alberta. These idiots hand delivered a theme to the anti hunters. I am glad under armour drew the line, fired the idiots, defended their brand and their hunting products.

And if hunters think they can go alone without backing by quality corporate institutions. Read this story about kuiu

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/...016-02-09/killing-it

There is a taint associated with hunting and I am glad there are large corporate entities making these products and selling them. Or else we would be buying them mail order only or at dsc/sci.

Let view the gun rights NRA approach on giving no ground. Has the NRA organized boycotts of Walmart, Dicks, Academy for stopping the sale of AR/military style/assault/modern sporting rifles ? No because Wayne realizes that some corporate brand management issues may be justified from a business reason.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I think we should push the message of conservation to new heights and explain to everyone that these animals would not be alive if it were not for hunters.We should always try to set a good example for other hunters through are actions.I think that we should not hide as well.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Wow Mike, what an intelligent and articulate post.
 
Posts: 3153 | Location: PA | Registered: 02 August 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:

. . .

2. Ethics are what drive the laws, not the other way around. My point is that if we do not have a reason or an ethic for why we do what we do and how we do it - we lose the privilege to do it. I was not stating that my ethics are perfect or that you should follow them. I merely stated that I had a hunting ethic that would not allow for spearing an animal in the manner it was done. Then the discussion went to trying to penalize the seller of equipment that sponsored the spear hunter, then to not supporting Cabela's because they sell Under Armour. Well, what about the 50 or so other Under Armour distributors such as Academy, Bass Pro and others?

3. A hunting method in a certain country is not ethics. It is "common practice". This is much like baiting ducks and geese in the USA 80 years ago. It was "common practice". Eventually, the ethics of that "common practice" came under question and the practice was banned as illegal and unethical. Up until 25 years ago, a tag for an animal could be shared in a group of hunters. The "common practice" was that I could shoot several deer as long as the group I was with had tags. That was "common practice" until the ethics were questioned and the practice was banned. If you chose to hunt leopards over bait at night in a country where that practice is legal - by all means you are free to do it. Because it is legal does not make it ethical. Eventually, that "common practice" could change based on the ethics of what you are doing and the harm/benefit to the wildlife resource.

4. This is why we have bag limits and restrictions on calibers and so on. It is ethics that brought the "common practice" into question, then a law was passed.

We are all in this together and I fully support the efforts of SCI, DSC, DU, Izaak Walton League and a host of others to inform our governing authorities on what the sporting community is doing and how we all work together for the resource. The enemy is well known and if we continue to "create our own ethics" without a base of understanding, self scrutiny and understanding of the resource, our cause is lost.

Of course you are free to create your own ethics. The pro-slavery did it for several hundred years to justify their actions - but all know it was wrong and based on the wrong "common practice". Our methods of hunting have changed in the same manner over the years. We no longer chase a herd of buffalo over cliff to kill them. We no longer bait waterfowl or migratory birds, we no long fish with poison or explosives - yet these were "common practice" and ethical in the day long ago.

By all means - choose your own ethics! But the responsibility is to choose wisely, thoughtfully and honestly. Laws will follow at some point.

I wish I were a bit more eloquent on this issue, as I believe some are mis-reading what I am saying.


Ross, I think you are selling yourself short on the thoughtfulness of your comments and the quality of your explanation, truth is that many of us agree with you. A quote that has been repeated here often is, ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. If the word "ethics" offends some, try substituting "good judgment". At a time when sport hunting is under attack, to defend the actions of those exercising poor judgment on the basis that it was legal and that's all that counts . . . or united we stand, divided we fall . . . will only hasten the end since those examples of poor judgment will simply be used to fan the already burning anti-hunting fires.


Mike
 
Posts: 21046 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I believe people are missing a point that has been touched on possibly by Dogcat.

All or practically all of our existing game laws in one measure or another evolved from Shared ethical beliefs concerning hunting, no problem there hunting was different at the point in time when many of the laws/seasons were established. Many were formulated to protect the diminished numbers of game animals and birds at the end of the Market Hunting era.

As time progressed other laws were put in place due to changes in land ownership/use, increases in the numbers of game animals/birds and recreational hunters.

Several things, in my opinion, have worked in concert unintentionally to create the manner in which hunting and hunters are viewed in our modern world.

More people moving from rural areas to urban/suburban areas and losing touch with nature and the land.

Too many people today, trying to equate hunting as a "Competitive Sport".

Social media giving fringe element individuals a "Bloody Pulpit" to spew forth their "Beliefs/Ideologies".

A population of hunters that are divided on various levels due to age and personal beliefs and ethics and seem unable to to find any common ground to stand on.

The points that are being missed, is ethical or "Unethical", True Sportsman or "Glory Seeking" hot shot, we are all in the two same boats.

1. We spend money buying licenses, equipment, paying for trips, supporting conservation groups, all because we love to hunt.

2. We are all facing the same enemies, people for whatever their reasons or motives determined to take the activity we love and are passionate about away from us.

It is up to us as individuals to decide whether or not we can set aside our individual beliefs/ideologies and work together to hold on to hunting as long as possible, or continue our segregational attitudes and be viewed as the generations that allowed hunting to come to an end.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:

. . .

2. Ethics are what drive the laws, not the other way around. My point is that if we do not have a reason or an ethic for why we do what we do and how we do it - we lose the privilege to do it. I was not stating that my ethics are perfect or that you should follow them. I merely stated that I had a hunting ethic that would not allow for spearing an animal in the manner it was done. Then the discussion went to trying to penalize the seller of equipment that sponsored the spear hunter, then to not supporting Cabela's because they sell Under Armour. Well, what about the 50 or so other Under Armour distributors such as Academy, Bass Pro and others?

3. A hunting method in a certain country is not ethics. It is "common practice". This is much like baiting ducks and geese in the USA 80 years ago. It was "common practice". Eventually, the ethics of that "common practice" came under question and the practice was banned as illegal and unethical. Up until 25 years ago, a tag for an animal could be shared in a group of hunters. The "common practice" was that I could shoot several deer as long as the group I was with had tags. That was "common practice" until the ethics were questioned and the practice was banned. If you chose to hunt leopards over bait at night in a country where that practice is legal - by all means you are free to do it. Because it is legal does not make it ethical. Eventually, that "common practice" could change based on the ethics of what you are doing and the harm/benefit to the wildlife resource.

4. This is why we have bag limits and restrictions on calibers and so on. It is ethics that brought the "common practice" into question, then a law was passed.

We are all in this together and I fully support the efforts of SCI, DSC, DU, Izaak Walton League and a host of others to inform our governing authorities on what the sporting community is doing and how we all work together for the resource. The enemy is well known and if we continue to "create our own ethics" without a base of understanding, self scrutiny and understanding of the resource, our cause is lost.

Of course you are free to create your own ethics. The pro-slavery did it for several hundred years to justify their actions - but all know it was wrong and based on the wrong "common practice". Our methods of hunting have changed in the same manner over the years. We no longer chase a herd of buffalo over cliff to kill them. We no longer bait waterfowl or migratory birds, we no long fish with poison or explosives - yet these were "common practice" and ethical in the day long ago.

By all means - choose your own ethics! But the responsibility is to choose wisely, thoughtfully and honestly. Laws will follow at some point.

I wish I were a bit more eloquent on this issue, as I believe some are mis-reading what I am saying.


Ross, I think you are selling yourself short on the thoughtfulness of your comments and the quality of your explanation, truth is that many of us agree with you. A quote that has been repeated here often is, ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. If the word "ethics" offends some, try substituting "good judgment". At a time when sport hunting is under attack, to defend the actions of those exercising poor judgment on the basis that it was legal and that's all that counts . . . or united we stand, divided we fall . . . will only hasten the end since those examples of poor judgment will simply be used to fan the already burning anti-hunting fires.


Sort agree with all that but you talk about the end? Peter Beard wrote "the End Of The Game' in the 60's.

Some of the top concessions here are solidly booked for the next couple of years and most of the Lions taken recently have been by Americans?

The ones I know of have repeatedly booked Lion for next year and beyond.

What end?


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Posts: 9840 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Fair,
I think the "end" we are talking about is the further erosion of hunting opportunities in the US as well as further restrictions on gun ownership, hunting access and even exhorbitant taxes on ammo to take as many hunters out of the game as possible.
 
Posts: 10079 | Location: Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:

. . .

2. Ethics are what drive the laws, not the other way around. My point is that if we do not have a reason or an ethic for why we do what we do and how we do it - we lose the privilege to do it. I was not stating that my ethics are perfect or that you should follow them. I merely stated that I had a hunting ethic that would not allow for spearing an animal in the manner it was done. Then the discussion went to trying to penalize the seller of equipment that sponsored the spear hunter, then to not supporting Cabela's because they sell Under Armour. Well, what about the 50 or so other Under Armour distributors such as Academy, Bass Pro and others?

3. A hunting method in a certain country is not ethics. It is "common practice". This is much like baiting ducks and geese in the USA 80 years ago. It was "common practice". Eventually, the ethics of that "common practice" came under question and the practice was banned as illegal and unethical. Up until 25 years ago, a tag for an animal could be shared in a group of hunters. The "common practice" was that I could shoot several deer as long as the group I was with had tags. That was "common practice" until the ethics were questioned and the practice was banned. If you chose to hunt leopards over bait at night in a country where that practice is legal - by all means you are free to do it. Because it is legal does not make it ethical. Eventually, that "common practice" could change based on the ethics of what you are doing and the harm/benefit to the wildlife resource.

4. This is why we have bag limits and restrictions on calibers and so on. It is ethics that brought the "common practice" into question, then a law was passed.

We are all in this together and I fully support the efforts of SCI, DSC, DU, Izaak Walton League and a host of others to inform our governing authorities on what the sporting community is doing and how we all work together for the resource. The enemy is well known and if we continue to "create our own ethics" without a base of understanding, self scrutiny and understanding of the resource, our cause is lost.

Of course you are free to create your own ethics. The pro-slavery did it for several hundred years to justify their actions - but all know it was wrong and based on the wrong "common practice". Our methods of hunting have changed in the same manner over the years. We no longer chase a herd of buffalo over cliff to kill them. We no longer bait waterfowl or migratory birds, we no long fish with poison or explosives - yet these were "common practice" and ethical in the day long ago.

By all means - choose your own ethics! But the responsibility is to choose wisely, thoughtfully and honestly. Laws will follow at some point.

I wish I were a bit more eloquent on this issue, as I believe some are mis-reading what I am saying.


Ross, I think you are selling yourself short on the thoughtfulness of your comments and the quality of your explanation, truth is that many of us agree with you. A quote that has been repeated here often is, ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. If the word "ethics" offends some, try substituting "good judgment". At a time when sport hunting is under attack, to defend the actions of those exercising poor judgment on the basis that it was legal and that's all that counts . . . or united we stand, divided we fall . . . will only hasten the end since those examples of poor judgment will simply be used to fan the already burning anti-hunting fires.


Mike,
Thanks. Yes, that was my point. I am not trying to tell others about what there ethics or "
good judgement" should be. It is a bit like what a judge said years ago about pornography - "I am not sure how to define it but I know it when I see it!".

I tend to align with Boone and Crockett and their standards on fair chase and ethics. I also agree that local practice may conflict with this but in the end, there are several practices out there today that are not good judgement and not good practice. As a hunting society, we have the obligation to correct it, re-train, re-teach, whatever to get the point across that hunting is a privilege that can be taken away if we do not exercise good judgement and be able to clearly state why we do what we do.....

The spear thrower would be a classic example - is it legal? Yes it was. Was it ethical? In my view, no. Why did he do it? I do not know. How did the act portray the rest of us? Not well. Can we defend the action? I cannot but understand others may be able to.

I have been around long enough to know that we will not be able to convince the majority of the anti's. We can however, convince the majority of those on the fence about sport hunting - if we can articulate and demonstrate why we do what we do in an ethical, "good judgment" manner.

Thanks for reading all of this.
 
Posts: 10079 | Location: Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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dogcat, I had no problem understanding what your position is after reading it one time. Quite frankly I agree with it. Not sure why some misunderstand?
 
Posts: 2276 | Location: West Texas | Registered: 07 December 2011Reply With Quote
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Well Dogcat, when you can convince the various states to change their Game Laws to fall more in line with what you believe is right, then, people might listen.

Problem is, today's hunters and hunting laws are designed so that everyone that wants to hunt can.

I am sure that you are a genuinely good, decent person, and I actually do agree that there is a segment of hunters that are more concerned with instant success/gratification, but there are also a lot of hunters that for whatever their reason, cannot afford or are simply not interested in going to Africa, and even going there, from the comments I have seen made by the various people that have hunted there or hunt there regularly, the way the hunt is conducted, just like here in America, is first and foremost, dictated by the rules and regulations in force in the country or state being hunted.

Yes the client can express their desires, something the vast majority of American hunters never have to deal with.

Again the problem hunter's face, is not just from the actual Anti-Hunting forces, who want all hunting, Ethical or Legal stopped, but from other hunters that believe that ANYONE that does not believe exactly as they do, or hunt exactly as they do, are not worthy of referring to themselves as hunters.

Dogcat, why did your party use BAIT to locate the animals? Why didn't you just go out daily looking for sign? Because you wanted an edge in the game, that is not any different than anyone else.

I am not trying to convert you, but maybe you should stop trying to convert others. I have not seen the bear with a spear video, never will, I burnt out on hunting shows after the original American Sportsman series with Curt Gowdy.

For hunting to survive however, Ethical Hunters and Legal Hunters are going to have to work together, or all of us will lose.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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I agree with a lot of what has been said about ethics. However , the problem is that every time the issue of standing up for hunters rights and/or fighting back come up, inevitably we get bogged down in a discussion on ethics . Nothing happens. We are still losing. We are not gaining ground. Yet, we do the same thing every single time.

If this was solely about spear hunting , I would have a different position . It isn't. They want to get rid of all hunting . Some want to make us all vegans. We have to take a stand.
 
Posts: 11902 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I agree.We must confront and hit back.Boycott these anti hunters and their companies.We are millions strong.How many of you are still flying Delta and the other airlines who banned trophy imports? Why not fly SAA?
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
If this was solely about spear hunting , I would have a different position . It isn't. They want to get rid of all hunting .


And that, as the old, well used saying states, is the Bottom Line.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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I keep wondering- leaving where??


Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
 
Posts: 13093 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
I agree with a lot of what has been said about ethics. However , the problem is that every time the issue of standing up for hunters rights and/or fighting back come up, inevitably we get bogged down in a discussion on ethics . Nothing happens. We are still losing. We are not gaining ground. Yet, we do the same thing every single time.

If this was solely about spear hunting , I would have a different position . It isn't. They want to get rid of all hunting . Some want to make us all vegans. We have to take a stand.


Exactly Larry...and I feel the same way.

Fighting this has become akin to stopping erosion. When runoff is endangering your home's foundation...total diversion is the only answer. If you allow little rivulets to remain...eventually that 20" in 24 hour rain comes along and the foundation is gone.

Enough is enough...it is time to take stand. Either we stay totally united (ie: total water diversion) or we lose.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 36367 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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At the risk of being banned, I have not heard anyone explain how a spear is any less ethical than a bow and arrow. As previously stated, neither is my cup of tea. However, I think the spear because it cuts more tissue area (faster and more hemorrhageing) is on average more effective.

Most would not bat an eye at these two using a bow. His post kill celebration may have been deplorible and unethical, but she got the boot for using the bladed weapon. I see UA's actions as a white flag to anti hunters. So, I support petitions and boycotts. I also did not get a reply from JS. So, he might not miss me. I know I will not miss him.

Hunters were the first to set ethical and then legal rules of fair chase and conservation. We know what these principals are. If we do not parcipate, educate, and even self-regulate then we will lose.

I am not saying if it is legal then all good. I am not saying I am the vicor of T. Roosevelt. I am saying that hunters nationally and regionally do not engage then the otherside will be the only voice at the table and the crazy legislations pass. If we do not allow the game we seek to be killed cleanly, utilized for more than ego status, hunts made too easy, and disrespect shown to the fallen animal; then the non hunting ,but not anti hunting community, will turn against us.

If you do not feel the same way. So be it.
 
Posts: 10547 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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quote:
At the risk of being banned,



rotflmo might take a bit more than that Wink
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Mr. Heym 450/400:
Thank you for the vote of confidence.
 
Posts: 10547 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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