the story seems to be a bit different than the initial reports...

The park MAY have issued a very expensive special permit to harvest Cecil. That would explain the $55,000.

It turns out that any animal that strays out of the parks is fair game.

It turns out that it is NOT illegal to bait park predators to bring them out of the park.

Many outfitters all across Africa seem to engage in this practice on occasion. Ever hear the stories that "wild lions" cross the boundary rivers from countries where it is not legal to hunt them to countries where it is?

Coincidentally, that seems to be a more common occurrence than the odds might indicate; and often coincides within a day or two of the hunter arriving in that country.

There is a possibility that the Park Officials just did not count on the foreign hunter making such a mess of the hunt and not killing Cecil with one clean shot.

Was it illegal, maybe not...

Was it at all ethical, or true fair chase? Absolutely NOT!!

Shucks, you're on a roll today. Bad PR these days if you don't actually get away with it. His priors probably tell the rest of the story -- better to earn than buy your trophies.

So what is fair chase? Is that when an old fat hunter is driven around in a land rover while more than one group of trackers set out throughout the concession in search of a suitable trophy.Then once they find it they radio the ph and bring the hunter to it and he shoots it.Pictures then follow,cigars ans scotch,hunt report...

One should not discount the possibility that "someone" within the Park actually took part in the operation.

I doubt old Cecil was pussyfooting along the boundary just waiting to be baited; it is also true to say that Park Rangers know the habits of certain animals and a family feline like Cecil, with pride and 6 cubs, would surely have been in the vicinity of his family and being such a friendly fellow, most likely have been near the main drag frequented by his fans.

Throwing a misguided dart at him in the pitch dark increases the suspicion that the party was guided to Cecil's place of residence and would thus implicate the rangers; I doubt Bronkhorst and company would know of his exact whereabouts.

Food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by BNagel:
Shucks, you're on a roll today. Bad PR these days if you don't actually get away with it. His priors probably tell the rest of the story -- better to earn than buy your trophies.

Every body who goes to Africa and pays a PH and pays the trophy fees is "buying" the game.

Some hunt harder than others but one is "buying" the game.

It sure isn't free.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter

The park MAY have issued a very expensive special permit to harvest Cecil. That would explain the $55,000.

Do you have a source for this info? Interesting if so.

Rumor has it that in the weeks prior to Cecil's untimely death, he ran down a pregnant gazelle, crippled it's hind legs, ripped into her belly, and then ate her fetus while she was still alive and bleating. Cecil subsequently claimed he was doing research for Planned Parenthood.

In other news, Iran now has a green light to develop nuclear weapons, the Chinese are training to invade Taiwan, the American military has been decimated, the American government has refused to defend the country's borders, the president has been quietly sending thousands of more troops back into Iraq, Kuwait and the Ukraine, war still rages in Afghanistan, and ISIS continues to shoot innocent people, burn them alive, drown them in cages, and teach seven year old's the ancient Muslim art of beheading with dull knives.

Coming up: How to handle the abject horror and psychological trauma of accidentally encountering a Confederate Battle flag, a Nativity scene, a gun show, or a public display of the Ten Commandments...

I understand there is a whole lot more to the story on the illegal bear kill in Wisconsin. He may or may not have known he was in the wrong bear area until after the kill.

quote:

Originally posted by chuckmaxman:
I understand there is a whole lot more to the story on the illegal bear kill in Wisconsin. He may or may not have known he was in the wrong bear area until after the kill.

I can tell you the people guiding him sure did.

I agree . What is the source of this information?

If you have not already read Aaron Nielson's post in his thread, on "Cecil", you all should.

Very well written and to the point.

Well said Aaron.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeE:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter

The park MAY have issued a very expensive special permit to harvest Cecil. That would explain the $55,000.

Do you have a source for this info? Interesting if so.

quote:

The park MAY have issued a very expensive special permit to harvest Cecil. That would explain the $55,000

These same National Parks officials sold "Management" elephant hunts by the dozens IN Hwange National Park not too long ago. That came to an end when a foreign hunter shot a 100lb bull as a cull and then purchased the tusks at the ensuing official ivory auction. There was also a scandal fanned by Rodriguez that one hunter or hunting party shot dozens of elephants and left them to rot in the park, around the same time. Then there was the waterhole poisoning incident . So it would not surprise me in the least if the local District Ranger was in on the hunt. But that does not make it legal ... Zimbabwe is a bit of a free-for-all when it comes to green pieces of paper. It just means that more people could go to jail ... the higher ups will be outraged not because their minions broke the law, but because they did not get their "cut".

second hand, "a friend of a friend...". That is why I said "may".

I might be totally misinformed. It is just not the kind of thing one would expect out of people there to take a bribe and break any rules, is it?

no offense Rich but that basically means the info isn't worth a crap and should not be repeated.
shane

If I remember correctly, the concession next to Antoinette is Ngamo which I believe is still controlled and operated by the Parks Dept. If a dangerous animal is wounded it is the PHs responsibility to notify the adjacent concessions immediately. That coupled with the bush communication that goes on makes it very unlikely Parks was not involved in this while it was happening.
I wounded a buffalo on Antoinette and we went to Ngamo to inform them and the concession run by the De Vries family within hours after losing his track.

npd345, et al...

don't tell me, tell Aaron Nielsen. He has a wealth of personal knowledge RE such things.

Everything read/heard anywhere unless you were there in person, from start to finish is hearsay.

With your training, you know that, better than most...

that is exactly my point.

If you can't even remotely give something any creditability, don't repeat it.

That is no better than gossip and just plan crap and makes a matter worse than it is.

If I was you I would erase the whole post.

I don't know how Aaron got involved in this exchange.

He has one of the very few posts on this "Cecil" mess that makes any sense.

The second line of your post destroys any value of the rest of your post.

Did you read the paper this morning?

Zim is requesting extradition.

Observation: it is almost impossible for a foreign hunter to kill any animal illegally without prior planning by the PH who is guiding him/her, and generally without the assistance of, in this case, Park officials.


If this offends your delicate sensibilities, click the "Ignore" button and get on with your life.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeE:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter

The park MAY have issued a very expensive special permit to harvest Cecil. That would explain the $55,000.

Do you have a source for this info? Interesting if so.

Rich has no info. He is just doing what he likes to do, stir the pot.

Okay, park personnel may have just taken a bribe to let this guy kill Cecil.

We can safely assume if the asshole had killed him cleanly, no one would ever know...

Also: for the record, I do not know for certain who actually killed JFK. Rumor has it it was some guy named Oswald.


Lastly, before you respond, read what Russ Gould posted above.

quote:

If this offends your delicate sensibilities, click the "Ignore" button and get on with your life.

where did that come from?



This "Cecil" mess is only getting worse because we are feeding it and making it worse.

The anti's are laughing their ass's off as they make copies of all the stupid things being put in print.

Rumors, gossip, "may"bes, tasteless comments and the just plain bullshit being put to print is going to get hunting taken away from us in Africa.

Some day I hope to go back to that great place again and pray the opportunity is still available.

Stick to the facts and to all, believe it or not, everything on the internet is not true but there is always someone who believes it and repeats it or even worse adds to it. The more it gets repeated the more some give weight to it.

We are own worse enemies!

shane

Here's a source:

quote:

Park authorities confirmed that a valid license was held but that it did not specify where the hunting of the lion could take place.

Using a bow and arrow to hunt animals is allowed in Zimbabwe as long an hunting permit is held.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...e.html#ixzz3hd9wjpHk

Apparently Palmer had a valid Lion Hunting Permit as confirmed to the Dailymail by Park Officials.

Does that clear up at least this one issue for you guys?

thanks Cowboy

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:


I might be totally misinformed.

Might?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:


I might be totally misinformed.

Might?

If history is any indication.... He "might" be...

dogcat, Frostbit,

Did you even look at the post I made before you commented?

If you had you would have seen that ISS wasn't misinformed he just didn't know the source of the information.

Why continue to attack the messenger when the message has been verified?

So, how then is it poaching if a permit was issued? How then, were the Zim guys arrested? On what charge then?

couple of things here:

1. Dogcat, you are the only one who used the word "poaching". Got any source for that?

2. Frostbit, the person who shared the newspaper story with me did not say I could quote him. But if you can make about two mouse clicks, you can read it yourself.

3. NPD345, same for you as Frostbit.


I have been around the world a couple times, and I have seen the Elephant. From about six feet in one instance.
Secondly, this is not my first night rodeo.

So, the three of you, in no uncertain terms have questioned what I posted here. Now you have the story, which pretty closely matches what I have posted.
I am guessing that might make me right.

I am not, of course, naive enough to believe any of you would be man enough to admit you were premature, if not wrong, in responding.

Although, one of you; I would have thought better of.

So, man up, or toddle off...

regards,

Rich

quote:

second hand, "a friend of a friend...". That is why I said "may".

Rich we have been friends for probably 30 years. I hope we will still be.

I am man enough to say I was not premature on my judgment of your post. I was not wrong.

When asked for the source of the information you came up with the "friend of a friend, or secondhand". Not that you were told it came from a newspaper article. It would of been better to just say that, that being the case, than the response you gave.

My whole point in all of this that if you can not substantiate your information don't spread it.

When someone does that they become part of the problem.

You know me well enough that if I thought I was wrong I would apologize.

I am not.

My compliments to Shootaway. George yours is the only post of this whole thread that I enjoyed. Hope to see you at SCI next year again

Stop by for a pop next week Rich and we can laugh face to face about this.
shane

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
So, how then is it poaching if a permit was issued? How then, were the Zim guys arrested? On what charge then?

I've been following this whole thing fairly closely because my wife and I are planning a hunt and we are interested in Lion, so it's been important to me to see how things develop. Having said that, I've read probably 50 or more articles by as many legitimate sources as I could find.

I've come to a few conclusions from all that reading:
1 - The Zim Gov't officials can't tell the same story twice nor can two different Officials tell the same story. I've seen quotes from the same official that were dead opposites from one day to the next.

This doesn't actually surprise me given the corrupt nature of the Zim Gov't in general. The fact that this lion's death has garnered international attention means that the Zim Gov't wants to present themselves in the best possible light. Changing statements and different statements from different officials just gives them room to manuever especially if something negaive about a park official should come to light.

2 - I believe from the statements I've read, the hunter(Palmer) had a Permit to hunt a lion with a bow from the Zim Gov't, this permit did not specify the location.

3 - I believe that the PH(Theo Bronkhorst) didn't have a permit to hunt lion at the property where the lion was killed. This is by definition poaching by the PH but not necessarily by the hunter.

4 - I believe that the Land Owner(Honest Trymore Ndlovu) did not have a quota for his property. Again this is by definition poaching but not necessarily by the hunter.

5 - From what I had read earlier, baiting is legal in Zim even to bait animals out of a national park.
But now I am seeing contraditory statements from Zim Oficials. (see my statement above about the gov't)

6 - From what I had read earlier, shooting animals with a collar is legal in Zim, even ones lured out of a National Park. But now I am seeing contraditory statements from Zim Oficials. (see my statement above about the gov't)

7 - I've read statements that the PH reported the kill properly, but I've also read statements that he tried to destroy the collar and hide the kill. I don't know what to believe but since he pled not guilty I will presume that he plans to present some kind of defense for whatever actions he did or didn't take. I'll just have to wait for more evidence.

8 - Beyond the statements that Palmer released through a PR agency telling everyone he believed he acted within the laws of Zim, he has been in hiding.

I don't blame him for this since he and his family have been threatened with violence and death. I also don't blame him for not flying directly back to Zim to give a statement or be arrested, I certainly wouldn't ever set foot anywhere near Zim again the rest of my life. Considering what the Zim Gov't did to legitimate white landowners what kind of chance do you think a white foriegn hunter has at getting a fair trial?

9 - I don't know how much Palmer knew about the permits and quotas his PH and the Land Owner had, until this happened I probably wouldn't have given it a second thought to ask to see that information from the people I paid $50,000 to provide me a legal hunt.

Given Palmers history with the bear in 2008 and the settlement with his employee for $127,000, this certainly calls into question his character. But neither of those actually apply to this hunt unless someone can show me that he knew he was poaching and continued anyways. I've yet to see any evidence of what he knew or didn't know.

10 - I know that this whole thing has had a negative effect on hunting in general and trophy hunting in particular. How bad of an effect I don't know. Most Trophy Hunters are probably not bothered by this and are waiting for all the facts to come out before passing judgement. Some Hunters are bothered by this but since some hunters are bothered by trophy hunting anyways it's probably not that many in the grand number of hunters. Anti-hunters are clearly using this as another opportunity to push there agenda, nothing hunters do will change the minds of die hard Anti's. The middle ground is where the media will have the most impact some of those people who had probably never thought about hunting/hunters before have probably now been swayed by the negative publicity.



Now having said all that none of that changes the fact that ISS made a statement, people ask for a source and he didn't have one. I provided a source that backed up his information and then you chose to continue to attack the messenger(ISS). Now that you have been confronted with your behavior to ISS, instead of acknowledging the fact that he was right you now want to change the subject to "So, how then is it poaching if a permit was issued? How then, were the Zim guys arrested? On what charge then?" If I've failed to answer your questions with my statements above then you should go directly to the ZIM Gov't and ask them and then ask them again tomorrow and then ask a second Zim Official and see what the answwer(s) is(are).

And if you want sources for the statements I've made above, you can do the reading/research yourself and find it on your own because it is clear that you will just change the subject when it doesn't go your way. Google is your friend.

well said Cowboy

I just re-read this thread as a result of the responses and PM I have had. Let me offer a response and observation.
1. I have hunted Zim three times. Each time with well known outfits, one that worked the area near Hwange NP. Each were fanatical about the permits, quota and where we physically hunted. We went right to the border of the park looking for elephant tracks. The lions in the park are//were well known to our pH and government scout.
2. I have heard scores of stories on corruption there. But never witnessed it. Is it likely, probably. On the matter of lion permits, unless someone way up the food chain is involved I doubt there is a "corrupt" permit involved, but would be surprised either way.
3. Are there two or more permits involved? Never heard of that in Zim. Quota is one thing and a permit is a different thing.
4. It appears that the PH and landowner are the issue. Whoever fired the shot is not the issue so much as the lion was killed without a proper permit issued by the right entity. That is poaching by one of the definition. Hence my statement that Cowboy takes issue with. I still ask- how is it not poaching and why were two men arrested and the Zim government asking for extradition?
5. As to "attacking the messenger", our beloved Rich, he has been known to "stir the pot" and get a fact or two confused in the past. If I am wrong on this entire issue and we learn that the a government official took a bribe to issue an illegal permit and Rich's sources are spot on- I offer my sincerest apologies to Cowboy and Rich.
6. As to using the Internet or a British or US newspaper as a source, we have all seen strong evidence that they get facts wrong, report things wrong and are often inaccurate. I respect the effort to drill around on the Internet to figure out the truth, but I would not bet a lot on the accuracy.
7. I would believe Aaron or Ivan Carter and others that know lion hunting in Zim. They are also connected to the PH network there.

So, with all that said, I think we all need more confirmed facts to see how this turns out.

And Rich, I assure you, I hope you right on all of this as it would make some sense out of this mess. Also, I will apologize in all caps and promise to never send you any PM's if you will promise to never send any of your enlightening PM's to me again.

Who in their right mind would rely on the UK gas-bag 'Daily Mail' as a true accurate & reliable source??

Reuters
The Washington Post
USA Today
and I think I read another one from a UK paper but I can't remember exactly which paper it was.

All posted articles in the last 4 or 5 days that made the same statement about Palmer having a Permit and at least two of them actually quoted one of the Zim Officials by name.

I did my due dilligence...one source, sure that's easy to question the accuracy. Multiple source with direct qoutes from named officials, since I can't fly to Zim and ask everyone involved directly I have no other choice than to rely on other sources and then try to confirm them independently of each other.

dogcat,

quote:

7. I would believe Aaron or Ivan Carter

I read the posts and articles that have been posted here and on other forums and both Aaron and Ivan have said that baiting is legal and shooting collared animals is legal in Zim...a couple hours ago I read an article and Oppah Muchinguri a senior member of President Robert Mugabe’s ruling ZANU-PF party is quoted as saying that both those practices are illegal.

Now I am NOT calling Aaron or Ivan liars, but neither one of them is a Gov't official are they and neither one of them has the power or authority to change policy or make official statements for the Zim Gov't.

Now the question becomes for the average hunter looking in who should be believed?

For me the answer is easy becaus of what I know of Aaron and Ivan's reputations and what I know of Zim Gov't but it might not be for everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by CowboyCS:
Reuters
The Washington Post
USA Today
and I think I read another one from a UK paper but I can't remember exactly which paper it was.

All posted articles in the last 4 or 5 days that made the same statement ...

I did my due dilligence...

'Due diligence' by confirming the story via typical parrot fashion media sources?
well keep in mind,
The global media outlets had told us Cecils brother 'Jericho' had also been shot & killed,
but now they have changed their reports to say that Jericho is actually alive and well... or has he risen from the dead???...

Do you mean sources like the Guardian and CNN? Hello Pot meet Kettle.

quote:

Two independent sources have confirmed the hunter's identity to the paper, which has also seen a copy of the relevant hunting permit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...merican-dentist.html

Cowboy,
I keep coming back to- is this a case of poaching or what? Seriously, why all the mess if this was legal and the guy had a permit and there was a lion on quota in this area? It makes no sense.

If he shot a lion with none on quota, that is poaching but not something he should be extradited for.

The collar issue and the baiting issue are sidebars in this. Baiting is normal hunting practice for lions. I cannot address the collar issue but would rely on the likes of PH's that regularly guide lion hunters in Zim to know the laws for any given area.

As tough as it is to become a PH in Zim, I would expect a solid PH to know the rules.

dogcat,

I will say I don't know if Palmer poached this lion or not...I can speculate a lot of reasons why it is now the mess it is, but it would be just that, speculation.

ISS presented some information, I provided a source and now several references and another source for the information about the permit, beyond that everyone will just have to decide for themselves what the truth is and if the source of the information is reliable.

I think I'm going to do exactly what I said earlier, wait for more evidenec before I make a judgement.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the story seems to be a bit different than the initial reports...

The park MAY have issued a very expensive special permit to harvest Cecil. That would explain the $55,000.

It turns out that any animal that strays out of the parks is fair game.

It turns out that it is NOT illegal to bait park predators to bring them out of the park.

Many outfitters all across Africa seem to engage in this practice on occasion. Ever hear the stories that "wild lions" cross the boundary rivers from countries where it is not legal to hunt them to countries where it is?

Coincidentally, that seems to be a more common occurrence than the odds might indicate; and often coincides within a day or two of the hunter arriving in that country.

There is a possibility that the Park Officials just did not count on the foreign hunter making such a mess of the hunt and not killing Cecil with one clean shot.

Was it illegal, maybe not...

Was it at all ethical, or true fair chase? Absolutely NOT!!

The other, other side.