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| Administrator |
Common sense! A bunch of nuts started “save DSC” while in fact all they wanted was to destroy DSC as we know it and re-invent in a new coat. Those same individuals, should have been given the proverbial boot. Instead they are being awarded. Dave has a job of making sure no negative publicity comes out of this. It is his job. He posted telling members to mind their own business and not ask awkward questions. Several members understood exactly what has been meant. Is Dave a member of the current management of DSC? Or is he a paid employee?? Regardless, if he is part of the management, members don’t appreciate being told to mind their own business when they ask relevant questions. If he is not part of the management, and only in it because he is paid to manage the media, then I don’t believe a word of it. Members of DSC here deserve answers to their relevant questions. Not many are happy that the “save DSC” gang members are still in. | |||
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I agree. This is kind of my feeling about all the hunting orgs. While I support some, honestly, I also realize it’s the nature of the beast that some money is going to go where I would rather not, and as long as it’s doing “some” good, I’m generally ok with it. When DSC was a member and volunteer run org, you had less such going on. SCI I am sure was the same, but I was not around then. Once you have paid management, the ability to keep paying the management becomes paramount to the org. | |||
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What seem to missing the point is, the "save DSC" bunch wanted to make DSC into their own little fiefdom. They never cared for the DSC we have always known, belonged to, and loved as an exceptional hunting organization. They went about it in the most sneaky, unprofessional, selfish manner. They cost DSC lots of money, created a very nasty atmosphere. And they get a reward for it. | |||
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I registered to become a member of this site within the last few days and have not taken the time to enjoy the broad suite of features and topics that are found here; I've been too busy keeping up with the painful dialogue on this string. Though I had no intention of providing a personal comment to add to this assorted diatribe, I will do so despite my better judgement by sharing some personal observations, in no particular order of importance: * It's obvious that there are folks weighing in on this string who have an ax to grind. And based on the nature of the comments and some of the chronology of how these comments are arranged, it's also apparent that there are some who are doing the bidding for others. Fair enough, this is not uncommon with how people often collaborate their efforts. * Pitting DSC against SCI is very unfortunate, regardless of where one's loyalty may lie. Both of these orgs are integral to the success of international conservation work. Working together, we can accomplish far more than working apart. Would it not be great if DSC and SCI had a cheerleading squad that fostered their ability to synergize one-another's work? The missions of each of these orgs are so closely aligned and are so important, it only makes sense to aspire to creating collective strength. There's a natural tendency for our NGO world to stay in their lanes, working in silos, while ignoring the amazing opportunities to work together on the same side of the isle. To intentionally drive a wedge between such important conservation groups is insensible. * I've been a friend and colleague of Dave Fulsom since 1992...some 30 years. I've grown to know Dave as someone who is going to speak his mind honestly and poignantly, like it or not. There have been unfortunate, and perhaps intentional, mischaracterizations of some of his comments on this string that creates a false narrative regarding his comments. And I'll also add that Dave and his partner invest an immense amount of time and work into DSC, much that is behind the scenes and some that is not. Few people see and appreciate the value that they bring to the table for DSC and for the mission of DSC. And, yes, they are paid as third-party contractors of this org. To insinuate that their opinion or word has no merit simply because they are paid for their services is simply absurd. As professionals across many industries, people are paid for their opinions and expertise...doctors, accountants, mechanics, wildlife consultants, on and on. And whether they are on the time clock or simply offering an opinion as part of a germane conversation, their input should not be disqualified simply on the basis of their professional role within the sphere of the matter...totally nonsensical. * The management style of the moderator, here, is bizarre to me. Disparaging comments about SCI. Disparaging comments about DSC. Disparaging comments about individuals who are weighing in on this conversation. And an accusatory and presumptive style...these communication actions only throw fuel on the fire. If the intent through this moderation style is to drive continued debate/fight and continued activity on this string, then mission accomplished, but the "unintended consequences" create unfortunate collateral damage. This is not good for the health of the hunting community and is also not good for the user-community of this site. But so be it; it's not my site. I'll probably get hated-on for this observation...again, so be it. We must learn to play this game smarter. Period. Exclamation Point! I'm not for sure what that full recipe looks like, but part of it begins with recognizing the importance of our broad NGO conservation world playing well together. Though it seems to go against the grain of human nature, part of the conservation success recipe hinges on each of us mustering some amount of empathy for those who appear to have adversarial positions to our own...a fundamental principle of trying to reconcile the many social disparities in life. And should we fail to learn to play the game smarter, this conversation, this site, and our values related to our hunting heritage will become irrelevant. Until we learn to play the game smarter, it will avail us little to play the game harder. Or, as my accountant says, "If you are losing money on the margin, you generally don't make up for it through increased volume." Cheers, Greg Simons Greg Simons | |||
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Let’s cut the whole it’s all about conservation story https://www.biggame.org/wp-con...0/10/List-Item-1.pdf Salaries and advertising combined exceeded conservation grants. To give $2-$2.5 mil in conservation grants over $9 mil in revenue needs to be raised. This is not really about conservation - it’s about marketing a hunting convention. The ownership of that hunting convention marketing business is not an individual or a commercial entity or a public company. If one sees dsc and sci for what they are - hunting marketing organizations - everything that is happening falls in place. Mike | |||
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Would be interesting to know how much money is paid to pull the wool over our eyes! The document above shows about $1.6 million is paid for advertising. Very poor return to make sure you alienated your core membership! | |||
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This ^^^ is the exact point of Larry Shores’ post and the essence of why he made the OP. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I totally agree. But, shouldn’t whoever running these organizations have the same, realistic view?? In the past SCI got consumed by their sick circles! It became the holy grail. DSC was great. Then the “save DSC” idiots jumped on the bandwagon. And where are we now?? Giving them awards!?? The very same individuals who wanted to destroy it!! We asked questions, and suddenly we are being accused as not caring??!! If anyone at the current DSC has any sense, the only way the culprits of the “save DSC” debacle would be allowed back in if they paid every penny DSC had to pay to fight their stupidity! | |||
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I have no interest in bashing SCI, . They are an easy target. My own experience is that they do not care for their vendors and have openly threatened us, in front of clients, that if we did not donate, "You might find yourselves with a bad booth location next year." In Reno, there were small rooms that attendees didn't know existed, so their mafia like tactics carried more weight. In Vegas, it's not as bad as there is either upstairs and downstairs. Proving these threats to be true, I saw long time exhibitors banished to these rooms before. Conversely, I saw some lesser known outfits wind up on the main isle on the entryway, in the most prime booth locations. These were first time exhibitors. Tell me how one acquires enough points to land there??? It's not possible. These tactics showed SCI's true colors. The business I got there was hardly worth the time and effort. I quit SCI in 2014 and decided to take the $6000 expense and try out some new hunts in Europe. Absolutely, the best decision I ever made. | |||
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I understand the “save DSC” bunch want to turn DSC into a mini SCI! And as you can see, their “media” rep is doing a great job trying to silence anyone asking questions!! | |||
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Well greg dont thing many or anyone said dave had not done plenty of good for dsc and hunting. But when friends can not look pass the problems people are saying it is just wrong. Yes he picked his words wisely how he answered some of us but dont piss done my neck and tell me it is raining. His job is to use words and other things so he knows what he is doing. The I did not see you at the meeting or do more if your unhappy is bs cover. I did not join to try and be on any boards or going to meetings. I joined believing in what they did as dsc. That is all I am able to do and don't anymore because of how things went with dsc. I agree supporting dsc or sci can be a good thing when they do what they say. It would be great if we could all stick together and hope one day we can but now is not that time for me. | |||
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I have never attended any of these award ceremonies. Most people receiving such awards simply have more free time and money that enable them to hunt more far and wide. Just a question about this OOHA or whatever the acronym is. Was the event held at any expense to the DSC? A DSC paid for room at the convention center? Any food or other expenses paid by the DSC? Was it simply scheduled at the same time at their own expense for convenience? If the DSC had not expense involved then I see no issue. Just these jelly beans own back scratching party. More power to them. Could be tickets to attend paid their overhead for the event. EZ | |||
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DSC spent a lot of money fighting against those same people receiving the awards. They are still part of DSC as far as I understand! That is the sire point for a lot of us. You don’t cause a problem so the organization you are part had to call on lawyers to silence you and expect to remain part of that organization! This whole mess needs to be cleared. What if this is only the tip of the problems?? Who do we believe when we can see that no action has been taken to rectify it? | |||
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Certain people responsible for such tactics no longer work for SCI . | |||
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Does that mean SCI has seen the light, and are improving? While DSC, thanks to “save DSC” are going down the drain?? | |||
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Saeed: SCI has indeed changed and changed a hell of a lot. For the better . I am now the chairman of the audit committee. I see everything. Many here would be shocked by the “by the book” attitude of management . I was pleasantly surprised. I have little doubt that things were not always this way. Occasionally, I hear something about the past that makes me cringe . Things are vastly different now . I still do not like the awards . They are here to stay I am afraid . SCI needs the money. The awards are nothing more than a fundraiser. The bad behavior associated with the awards result from member egos. To echo what some have said and what I said previously, all the hunting organizations need to work together . SCI & DSC are at the top of the list. | |||
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Larry - Hope you and your family are well. When I was on the BOD of Phoenix, we had two members from Tucson (National) one was on the EC, the other (Doug Luger) ran Record Book. He was in charge or the record book and all awards and trophy entry. He told us they are so aggressive because they are funded by trophy entries and trophy entries ONLY. Is it still the same? If so, I maintain that dropping Record Book all together, would fix many of SCI's ill's and image issues. If it's stand alone, it would effect nothing else. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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As i have said before this award has been around since 1981.(THIS IS NOT A NEW AWARD) No room comps,No free tables and no free meals.Just a group of past recipients who review applications determining eligibility and make a decision.The chosen recipient typically purchases more then one table and bring guest whom some have never attended a DSC event before.These guest in turn buy auction items, raffle tickets and some make very generous donations.I personally didn't care for the cords and sashes they wore but the past recipients decided on them and paid for them.This was no cost to the organization.In closing would like to reinforce what Dave has already said in this thread multiple times the Save DSC group was handled and the organization has moved on.Its obvious the moderater likes fueling the fire to keep this thread alive but people need to be careful on topics on a non protected forums like this one.Not sure if all are aware but anyone can find these topics in an online search, not be a member and follow them.This site is NOT Protected.The antis probably follow these threads and get needed information to divide and conquer the conservation minded people and organizations.The best thing for everyone is to support which ever organization fits you best ,there all needed and working toward the same goal.The purpose raise money and spend wisely for conservation, education and advocacy. | |||
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The awards and record book raise significant amounts of money . These are not the only source of revenues . I think the awards are problematic. To me personally, they are the biggest issue . I think record book is less of a problem. It is now possible to record an animal in the record book and not have the hunters name recorded . | |||
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+1  | |||
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I believe as a member, you can get financial statement. If not, I suspect you can get via 501c3 sources which make this data public. If that does not make comfortable, call an officer or board member. Ask your questions. You should get straight answers. | |||
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I think I worded that incorrectly. "Record Book and awards" is a stand alone, channel of funding itself. Not SCI's funding as a whole, is what I should have stated. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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A non profit is required , upon request , to provide the last 3 years of form 990. In theory these can be obtained on line . However , the IRS has a severe backlog of returns to process. These are not available on line for any entity . | |||
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"You should get straight answers" I think it is passed that now with the current management of DSC and their PR guru. Bend the truth. Evade answering simple questions. Don't forget that times have changed. It used to be DSC is US! Now it is THEM and US. Move along, nothing is happening here. Now we have "insiders" who know it all. And us "outsiders" who should just shut up. And if you ask any relevant questions, you should apologize! I love the way this train wreck is going. Not good for any of us. | |||
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I am going to float this. I heard it clearly today. Management of SCI realizes that all hunting organizations need to work together. This conflict between DSC and SCI needs to end . It has been going on so long that no one even knows what the issues are any more. | |||
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I will bet Paul Tudor Jones spends many times more on conservation than dsc and sci put together annually. Without any awards shows pr or promotional videos. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/art...-in-africa-bfcphgxzh I know another anti hunting person who spends more on conservation in Kenya annually than Sci or dsc put together. Another person with real $$$ on conservation. http://digital.floridatrend.co...cleBrowser&ver=html5 Maybe sci and dsc should spend some money on serious economic analysis of the benefits of hunting in Africa. Proper peer reviewed academic and policy papers that justify hunting as supporting conservation instead of promotional videos and circle jerk awards. To date there has been little economic analysis of hunting and the anti hunting guys have their own papers. Till the narrative is primarily on benefits of hunting to Africans and conservation instead of awards given based on a checklist of animals that need to be killed to win the award. Anyone in society who is not African trophy hunter will think it is absolutely Nuts that organization who claim conservation of wildlife is primary goal https://www.biggame.org/who-we-are/our-mission/ Gives an award that requires https://www.biggame.org/projec...g-achievement-award/ SELECTION CRITERIA There are several collections and criteria acceptable for this award such as the collection of the North American 29, the DSC African Grand Slam, and the collection of any twelve of the sheep of the world. Additional Accomplishments in conservation or education are not considered for this award. For the specific information on all acceptable criteria, turn to page 54 in the DSC Resource Guide. These awards make a joke of the whole conservation objective. Unless you hit the punchcard of dead animals all $$$$ given to conservation are useless to win the award. This is what a trade show is - the award is for most dollars spent buying stuff at trade show. Mike | |||
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Exactly. It’s clear the awards are a revenue stream, distasteful or not, but it also depends on how the funds are deployed. We have also established more transparency is needed amongst all organizations. NRA has been a joke, but they are the biggest voice for gun rights. If I’m correct, Larry has also been very involved to expand the NRA hunting advocacy initiative. I don’t have a problem with SCI at all and have contributed to the local chapter in many ways. I don’t know how that has affected anything with the National SCI, but still hope we all share the same purpose. The changes in place are promising. I’m obviously loyal to DSC, as it’s local and I recall going to the first events by DFW airport as a kid. It has definitely grown since. This year celebrated the 40th anniversary. Yes, my father took me to those early “conventions.” I remember seeing things that were amazing. I was part of the original Young Professionals Group formation, but aged out of that. It was a great effort to get younger people involved in what we love. I don’t see why there is dissension between any groups. I believe we all share the same goal. Infighting is stupid. As Russell Stacy stated, as many have in the past, antis can infiltrate this forum. Just look at what they did with that double ele charge with BC and MJ (if you know, you know). That whole story was flipped upside down and they went nuts (well, they’re already nuts). Let’s hope the DSC numbers and the SCI numbers make up for the time we have lost to help outfitters around the world. Let’s hope the UK doesn’t ban trophy imports. Let’s hope everyone has a good time. Oh, I hope no one blows their hunting budget on the tables in Las Vegas! Cheers friends and all, we do have a common purpose. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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The negative aspects of these stupid awards far out weight any financial benefits they produce. I can see it now, SCI and DSC have decided to get closer? Great. But, it seems that SCI is becoming slightly better, and DSC is getting a lot worse, so they can meet half way? Stay tuned for another reality show. Episode one was SAVE DSC! I wonder what the next one is going to be? | |||
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I see another character telling me to mind my own business. Greg, The only thing I care about is to see both SCI and DSC being very successful. Sadly, SCI is so consumed with their silly circles and awards, I personally do not know single hunter who likes it. DSC has been doing great, until a bunch idiots jumped in to ruin it. You can state whatever you wish, but don’t tell me what I should or should not say. | |||
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+1 Saeed. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Greg - Thank you for the very articulate reply. AR can never have too many well mannered, well spoken Sportsmen. If you stick around, you'll soon learn that "calling out" folks or making inflammatory statements, don't fly well. Don't know Dave but it sounds like he's a great guy. This entire goat rope was unnecessary, but his remarks about SCI lit the fuse. That said, I thank you all for your volunteering for conservation and hunters advocacy. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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This thread really makes me sad. It is a great demonstration of how partial truths are used by social media to manipulate our social views. Anyone who believes AR isn't a form of social media are kidding themselves. Dave Fulson has now been reduced to nothing more than a "paid media spokesman for DSC" and there are even insinuations that he is a spokesman for the Save DSC bunch. NOTHING could be further from the truth. He was the first and most vocal adversary of the Save DSC group. So those of us who are his friend and know him personally, meaning we know his character far beyond any superficial interpretation garnered from a public forum, are also dismissed as nothing more than defending our friend with no credibility. I did say Dave should not have made the anti SCI comments so I'm not a blind supporter of anything my friend says. When he's wrong, I'll say so. But Dave's comments on the Save DSC fiasco have seriously been taken out of context and blown out of proportion. He never said, shut up and don't ask further questions. He simply stated the fact that the Save DSC litigation has run its course and is settled, with no additional case activity at this point. He further stated that those who think the case is still active have incomplete information and as an insider, he is trying to give you information that may not be public knowledge, based on the fact that he was heavily and closely involved in the matter. Let's think back a couple of years ago. There was a photo floating around on Fakebook of two distinguished AR members standing over a couple of smallish elephants. Mike Jines and Buzz Charlton, were being "made famous" by antis as being murderers of "baby elephants". In fact, those of us who know Mike and Buzz, know better. We know their character. Further, those of us who have "been there and done that" in regards to hunting elephants in the Zambezi Valley, know that fully grown cow elephants in that geographic area tend to be much smaller than what those without specific geographical knowledge in the general public think of when they think of the giant stature of elephants in general. I'm not on Fakebook any longer but my wife is. When one of her friends reposted that photo of Mike and Buzz, parroting the "murderers" mantra, I tried to comment, though my wife's account, that although the photos are real, the narrative associated with them is completely off base as they shot those 2 FULLY GROWN ele cows in self defense as they were being charged while backing out from the herd they were following. You can imagine how my comments were received. "You are their friend" ... "don't tell me something counter to what my eyes see" ... "You are biased because you're a hunter" ... etc. So now Dave, for those of us who know him, and have known him for years, who know of his deep seated passion for conservation and years upon years of dedication to DSC, is now considered someone who cannot be trusted to speak on the inner workings of the organization in regard to a legal matter that has been litigated and settled at this point, and because his company produces promotional videos for DSC, can no longer comment from his personal involvement angle. Again, he never told anyone to "walk away" or "don't ask additional questions" on the save DSC fiasco. He said "let it go" because the legal matter is settled at this point and the case is no longer ongoing. There is no existing case being litigated. And he stated that if you don't want to accept that as fact, you can carry on with commentary but you're not speaking with specific knowledge of the issue in a similar manner as those saying Buzz and Mike were murdering "baby" elephants. It is what social media does to good people today. With only tidbits of true info available, misinformation and disinformation are easy to promote. There is no room for nuance as tribalism is the order of the day. I do believe most times, good people's reputations are maligned unintentionally but it happens. It has happened here now to Dave, although the fire was lit by his unnecessary comments about SCI. He doesn't deserve this. It's a sad affair but it's the way of the world with the internet these days. | |||
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Todd, Does Dave own a media company paid by the new DSC management? | |||
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Define "the new DSC management". That's the crux of the problem I do believe. You seem to think the Save DSC group is the "new DSC management". From what I understand, although all of them were not ousted from the organization outright in the litigation, none of them are in a leadership position at this time. And Dave was one of the most vocal adversaries against Save DSC. That said, yes, Dave's company does promotional videos for DSC. DSC is one of the financial supporters of Tracks Across Africa. You say you've never watched the show. You should. What those of us who know Dave are tying to say is that we've listened to Dave comment about DSC for years and years, long before his company was hired by the organization. His message and involvement with DSC hasn't changed now that his company is on the payroll. He has been deeply involved in the organization for a long long time and I dare say one of the reasons we all love DSC is at least partially due to his involvement and others of like mindset. To try and label him as a sell out now is an easy social media tactic that is hard to counter once the narrative develops momentum ... but it's not the real story. | |||
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So Dave is an advertising man for the new DSC? I have stated before, I never believe ANY advert! The “save DSC” individuals are still part of the organization? Why? When you have a rotten apple in your apple box, you throw it away. I might be old fashioned, but I believe if create unnecessary problems for the organization you are part of, you should be kicked out. Those people cost DSC lots of money. For what purpose?? Why are they not be made to pay for their stupidity?? | |||
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+1 Mike | |||
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What "new DSC"? Again, that's the crux of the problem. There isn't a "new DSC". The Save DSC guys aren't in leadership from my understanding. If I'm wrong on that, I'll stand corrected. Why are the Save DSC rat bastards still members? Because the legal case against them did not result in the organization being able to kick them out. Why is OJ not in jail for life for murdering his ex wife and Ron Goldman? The case against him failed, regardless of overwhelming evidence. For about 12 years, I was a petroleum landman, working for and being paid by oil companies. I'm not a climate change denier but I have serious doubts that the climate changes we are seeing today are being caused by man burning hydrocarbons. I don't hold that view because I was paid by oil companies. I hold that view because I see discrepancies in the Global Warming narrative that I need additional answers to. The fact that an overwhelming number of "scientists" say it's so, doesn't sway my opinion because I realize most of them get their funding from universities, who receive their funding from governments that have a vested interest in promoting the tax-wealth redistribution scheme of man made global warming. In short, I don't believe scientists funded by the oil industry nor governments. I want to see for myself by asking critical questions. I believe my opinions on the matter are not influenced by the fact that I worked for oil companies as I held those same opinions before being "on the payroll". I'm saying Dave's opinions and commentaries on DSC are consistent with his opinions and commentary before his company was paid to do promotional videos. I fully understand anyone not knowing him for the period of time I have, dismissing that as me just defending a friend. But it's still not the truth. The problem with social media crucifixions is the medium disallows nuance while encouraging pitchfork and torch persecutions. It's a sign of our times unfortunately. | |||
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I apologize Mike. I didn't mean to open old wounds. Sorry about that. | |||
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Money and power. That's what it always boils down to. SCI wanted to be the only game in town. DSC was posing a serious threat. Remember when they announced they were going to have their convention in Dallas? A calculated move knowing very few people were going to travel to Dallas twice for the same show. I believe they underestimated their popularity and realized more people were going to choose DSC over SCI and the SCI show was going to be a bust. Just a guess. DSC has not yet reached that level of corrupt power hunger. I fear it's coming. It almost always does when you get this kind of strength. | |||
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. . . no problem. My comment above was directed at those that seem to have nothing better to do than to try and egg on a fight. Mike | |||
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