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A couple threads have been discussed the last few days. In one, Tanzania "East African Classic Safaris" was discussed and used as sort of a justification for the higher priced affairs.

3,904 per day? Can anyone justify that? After all, as Fairgame stated in another thread, Shower, Comfy Bed and good days afield, what else does one need?

I've really only been uncomfortable hunting in Africa once or twice and those were fly camps for a specific purpose.

I've almost always, with only a couple exceptions, collected the desired species, so what else is there?


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Posts: 2530 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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Steve, some years back I initiated a low daily rate and high trophy fees pricing system which did not go down well with some operators. Now it is a fairly common pricing structure.

To drop $100,000 on a Lion hunt without success would be a fairly miserable affair for most.


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Posts: 8757 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
A couple threads have been discussed the last few days. In one, Tanzania "East African Classic Safaris" was discussed and used as sort of a justification for the higher priced affairs.

3,904 per day? Can anyone justify that? After all, as Fairgame stated in another thread, Shower, Comfy Bed and good days afield, what else does one need?

I've really only been uncomfortable hunting in Africa once or twice and those were fly camps for a specific purpose.

I've almost always, with only a couple exceptions, collected the desired species, so what else is there?


Great Question Steve!

I have found that the Daily Fee and Trophy Fees are Tangible.

This is what I have observed:

When hunting on a package hunt vs day fees and trophy fees. They are targeting different line of clients.

When Daily fees are on the high end side the trophy fees are usually less. This is if the lodging is comparable. I become concerned when I see high daily fees and high trophy fees. And then pictures of trophies that in my mind poor quality. In other words, I would not have taken them.

When Daily fees are on the higher side and the trophy fees are on the higher side, the lodging is usually listed as 5 star and have lots of amenities. Side trips and such being offered for the family members who do not hunt. However, these locations have some superb trophy quality. I am not sure it is place and take kind of operation. I would have to wonder.

Then we have daily Fees are on the lower side, I have found that the trophy fees are on the high end. I have no knowledge on here operations as I pass them over when looking for a place to hunt.

I find it troubling the for different hunts the daily fees differ for plains game, then larger plains game (like sable & Roan), dangerous game (hippo & croc) & the Big 5 dangerous game.

Pricing is varied by country so one needs to look and compare.

Then comes location, where do you want to go and with who. Key PH'S will be booked years out. This plays into pricing. Pricing goes up to sort out clients that can afford to hunt.

Here is what I suggest: build a spread sheet and list day fees, other expenses. Air line pricing, motel pricing, meals, day fees, travel (getting to camp), trophy fees on animals looking to go after, dip and pack, and shipment. look at the bottom line and then compare the different destinations and see what fits your pocket book.

I have done this for all my trips, that way total cost is not a surprise when you leave camp.


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Posts: 1087 | Location: West River at Heart | Registered: 08 April 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
Steve, some years back I initiated a low daily rate and high trophy fees pricing system which did not go down well with some operators. Now it is a fairly common pricing structure.

To drop $100,000 on a Lion hunt without success would be a fairly miserable affair for most.


I agree and applaud you for doing that. Even if the dollars work out exactly the same, it somehow makes me feel I got more for my hard earned dollars.

Can you please explain why there is usually a $$ delta between a DG safari and a PG safari? Is it strictly the added intensity?


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Posts: 2530 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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I think we have to take into consideration where is one hunting.

Tanzania is a good example.

The outfitter has to pay an annual fee.

He also has to pay for 40% of his quota - whether he sells it or not.

He has to maintain a camp far into the wilderness.

Where roads are almost do not exist.

Ultimately, one has his choice.

He thinks the price offered is not good enough for him he is free to go somewhere else.


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Posts: 55873 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Bwana338:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
A couple threads have been discussed the last few days. In one, Tanzania "East African Classic Safaris" was discussed and used as sort of a justification for the higher priced affairs.

3,904 per day? Can anyone justify that? After all, as Fairgame stated in another thread, Shower, Comfy Bed and good days afield, what else does one need?

I've really only been uncomfortable hunting in Africa once or twice and those were fly camps for a specific purpose.

I've almost always, with only a couple exceptions, collected the desired species, so what else is there?


Great Question Steve!

I have found that the Daily Fee and Trophy Fees are Tangible.

This is what I have observed:

When hunting on a package hunt vs day fees and trophy fees. They are targeting different line of clients.

When Daily fees are on the high end side the trophy fees are usually less. This is if the lodging is comparable. I become concerned when I see high daily fees and high trophy fees. And then pictures of trophies that in my mind poor quality. In other words, I would not have taken them.

When Daily fees are on the higher side and the trophy fees are on the higher side, the lodging is usually listed as 5 star and have lots of amenities. Side trips and such being offered for the family members who do not hunt. However, these locations have some superb trophy quality. I am not sure it is place and take kind of operation. I would have to wonder.

Then we have daily Fees are on the lower side, I have found that the trophy fees are on the high end. I have no knowledge on here operations as I pass them over when looking for a place to hunt.

I find it troubling the for different hunts the daily fees differ for plains game, then larger plains game (like sable & Roan), dangerous game (hippo & croc) & the Big 5 dangerous game.

Pricing is varied by country so one needs to look and compare.

Then comes location, where do you want to go and with who. Key PH'S will be booked years out. This plays into pricing. Pricing goes up to sort out clients that can afford to hunt.

Here is what I suggest: build a spread sheet and list day fees, other expenses. Air line pricing, motel pricing, meals, day fees, travel (getting to camp), trophy fees on animals looking to go after, dip and pack, and shipment. look at the bottom line and then compare the different destinations and see what fits your pocket book.

I have done this for all my trips, that way total cost is not a surprise when you leave camp.


I get all that. Most of my African hunting is behind me at this point.

My question is essentially about one of your sentences, extremely high DR, highest TF's I've seen in the Masaai area, But yes, 5 star. What value is 5 star? Is it worth 2,000 additional a day? I think that question answers itself.

If we as the client base just don't pay it, it will automatically lower to a more acceptable level.


Formerly "Nganga"
 
Posts: 2530 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I think we have to take into consideration where is one hunting.

Tanzania is a good example.

The outfitter has to pay an annual fee.

He also has to pay for 40% of his quota - whether he sells it or not.

He has to maintain a camp far into the wilderness.

Where roads are almost do not exist.

Ultimately, one has his choice.

He thinks the price offered is not good enough for him he is free to go somewhere else.


Saeed, when the guy's GMA with the 3900 DR literally touches the GMA of a guy that is 50% less, I fail to see it as even being a choice.

And yes, we can go where we want, this is simply a discussion about the value or perceived value of DR's that are that high.


Formerly "Nganga"
 
Posts: 2530 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Can you please explain why there is usually a $$ delta between a DG safari and a PG safari?


Similar to travelling 1st Class and Coach.


The Big 4 are rated as key privileged species and obviously have a price on their head.

$3,904 as a daily rate is agreeably pretty steep but the outfitter knows he has the best and unique area for top rated trophies of the northern species and yes, if he has maintained his camp standards and cuisine as I once knew, are par excellence.

But as Fairgame stated, a comfortable bed, hot shower and palatable food washed down with Scotch on the rocks is what hunting is really all about and not everyone cares for the extra bells and whistles.

On the flip side, when you come across outfitters quoting high prices can only mean they have the supportive clientele and quite frankly, yet not taking sides, have not heard of any negative hunt reports in their regards.

You might want to consider a photographic safari at Sasakwa lodge with your family at rates between $7,000 to $11,000 per night. Big Grin
 
Posts: 1388 | Registered: 06 September 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by fulvio:
quote:
Can you please explain why there is usually a $$ delta between a DG safari and a PG safari?


Similar to travelling 1st Class and Coach.


The Big 4 are rated as key privileged species and obviously have a price on their head.

$3,904 as a daily rate is agreeably pretty steep but the outfitter knows he has the best and unique area for top rated trophies of the northern species and yes, if he has maintained his camp standards and cuisine as I once knew, are par excellence.

But as Fairgame stated, a comfortable bed, hot shower and palatable food washed down with Scotch on the rocks is what hunting is really all about and not everyone cares for the extra bells and whistles.

On the flip side, when you come across outfitters quoting high prices can only mean they have the supportive clientele and quite frankly, yet not taking sides, have not heard of any negative hunt reports in their regards.

You might want to consider a photographic safari at Sasakwa lodge with your family at rates between $7,000 to $11,000 per night. Big Grin


Fulvio-Sasakwa Lodge is Paul Tudor Jones isn’t it?
 
Posts: 1584 | Location: St. Charles, MO | Registered: 02 August 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by fulvio:
quote:
Can you please explain why there is usually a $$ delta between a DG safari and a PG safari?


Similar to travelling 1st Class and Coach.


The Big 4 are rated as key privileged species and obviously have a price on their head.

$3,904 as a daily rate is agreeably pretty steep but the outfitter knows he has the best and unique area for top rated trophies of the northern species and yes, if he has maintained his camp standards and cuisine as I once knew, are par excellence.

But as Fairgame stated, a comfortable bed, hot shower and palatable food washed down with Scotch on the rocks is what hunting is really all about and not everyone cares for the extra bells and whistles.

On the flip side, when you come across outfitters quoting high prices can only mean they have the supportive clientele and quite frankly, yet not taking sides, have not heard of any negative hunt reports in their regards.

You might want to consider a photographic safari at Sasakwa lodge with your family at rates between $7,000 to $11,000 per night. Big Grin


I had the same question about PG/DG rates. If a hunter is out for Buffalo and doesn’t see one all day, but shoots a kudu, for example, why the extra charge? It’s the same area, same crew, but double the rate. I suppose the same could be said if our hunting kudu and a monster buff pops up and is killed. Will the outfitter go back and then charge the higher rates?

I like what Andrew/Fairgame proposed in that it makes it worthwhile on both sides.

I hate that in Texas the pricing structure has long been that you pay it all and then pay for extra inches if necessary. I don’t hunt those places. They are also pay in full prior even if you don’t pull the trigger.


I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills.

Marcus Cady

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Posts: 2965 | Location: Dallas | Registered: 19 March 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by fulvio:
quote:
Can you please explain why there is usually a $$ delta between a DG safari and a PG safari?


Similar to travelling 1st Class and Coach.


The Big 4 are rated as key privileged species and obviously have a price on their head.

$3,904 as a daily rate is agreeably pretty steep but the outfitter knows he has the best and unique area for top rated trophies of the northern species and yes, if he has maintained his camp standards and cuisine as I once knew, are par excellence.

But as Fairgame stated, a comfortable bed, hot shower and palatable food washed down with Scotch on the rocks is what hunting is really all about and not everyone cares for the extra bells and whistles.

On the flip side, when you come across outfitters quoting high prices can only mean they have the supportive clientele and quite frankly, yet not taking sides, have not heard of any negative hunt reports in their regards.

You might want to consider a photographic safari at Sasakwa lodge with your family at rates between $7,000 to $11,000 per night. Big Grin


Fulvio-Sasakwa Lodge is Paul Tudor Jones isn’t it?



In the new world that is coming there will be far more seriously rich people willing to spend money on photo as safaris in top luxury camps than hunting.

Hunting without trophy import takes away a lot of high dollar hunter - no pelts and trophies no $$$.

Trophy hunting for iconic species (elephant lion ect) is not longer politically correct or desirable for new wealthy people.

Just look at sci convention - it’s all old membership base getting older.

Mike


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Posts: 11857 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I always figure that prices are based on what the traffic will bear.

Personally, 5 Star accommodations are wasted on me, they are neither wanted or appreciated. I stay in enough 5 star hotels for business so I don't need it on a hunting trip. I'd prefer thatch or canvas over plaster and tile on any trip.

After a full day of hunting, if I can get a warm shower, good solid food, one drink and a chair by the fire to enjoy my cigar I'm the happiest client you've ever seen!


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

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Posts: 11975 | Location: Bakersfield CA. USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With Quote
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For me, a camp waiter in fez, kaftan and white gloves is not my idea of a safari experience. Of course, everyone know it costs 3 times as much to operate in TZ as anywhere else in Africa... rotflmo
 
Posts: 9484 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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It’s all in the eye of the beholder
I’m middle /lower prices guy and find such hunts and good ones for that in abundance so I leave the high ones for guys who don’t care for the price


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Posts: 12211 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Why does flying First Class cost more than economy, when you are in the same plane?

Why does a steak cost more than a hamburger, when they are both from a cow? clap


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Posts: 55873 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Bottom line, you get what you pay for. The best areas are in high demand and pricey. I've only got so many trips left and I can't take it with me.
 
Posts: 7929 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 26 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by fulvio:


You might want to consider a photographic safari at Sasakwa lodge with your family at rates between $7,000 to $11,000 per night. Big Grin


Fulvio-Sasakwa Lodge is Paul Tudor Jones isn’t it?


Yes, PTJ owns the show in Grumeti.
The majority of his clientele are obviously the high-rollers who touch down in their private jets at Mwanza airport then hop across to the lodge in smaller chartered aircraft.
The man has invested serious money into this wildlife project that no other individual or govt. for that matter, would dream of spending.
 
Posts: 1388 | Registered: 06 September 2008Reply With Quote
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There are a lot of variables into the cost of being an outfitter.

What the market will bear seems to be the biggest marketing ploy.

Mountain Goat hunts in North America are highly variable in cost.

There are outfitters in Wyoming, Montana, Colorado and most other lower-48 hunts are generally $4000-7500. Based on a horseback hunt.

For some places Idaho mostly there are a lot of $9500-11,500 prices, and not much below that. Why is that? Maybe because it is easier to draw a tag in Idaho, or the Idaho outfitter association decided that is what goat hunts cost in Idaho.

Alaska hunts are $25,000 for Glacier Guides in the ABC islands in SE Alaska on a boat, down to $8000 for a backpack hunt within 300 miles of Anchorage or on Kodiak.

BC hunts in Northern or Coastal BC are generally $15,000 or more, and Goat hunts in Southern BC are $7500-12,000.

I have had outfitters in Northern BC tell me they have to pay the indians a big fee, that is why it cost more. Or at least that is what they are claiming.

So there are varying factors in cost, based on local administrative fees, boat/fuel cost and what the market will bear.

I was told about 10 years ago on AR by some outfitter in Tanzania that it was the best safari country and that is why it was the most expensive.

Best is hard to define.

I agree with silly waiter uniforms with white gloves, and other 5 star lodging upgrades being lost on me.

I'd like to experience Tanzania, and maybe there will be an opportunity for me to do it. It has always been out of reach, thought there have been some deals.
 
Posts: 7260 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 10 October 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
I had the same question about PG/DG rates. If a hunter is out for Buffalo and doesn’t see one all day, but shoots a kudu, for example, why the extra charge? It’s the same area, same crew, but double the rate. I suppose the same could be said if our hunting kudu and a monster buff pops up and is killed. Will the outfitter go back and then charge the higher rates?


If the above criteria is being applied to Tanzania it would be out of context because what is suggested just won't happen.

There are packages with specific animals to be hunted and if one not included "pops up" it will continue walking.

If its a shooting gallery one is after then it will be the all-inclusive "Full Bag" license.
 
Posts: 1388 | Registered: 06 September 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
For me, a camp waiter in fez, kaftan and white gloves is not my idea of a safari experience. Of course, everyone know it costs 3 times as much to operate in TZ as anywhere else in Africa... rotflmo


For some people, i.e. those who appreciate history, the traditional safari experience is aimed at taking clients as far back in time as things were during the colonial period where the gentry of high society wanted the comforts of home transported into the wilds.


If it were so simple to conduct a hunting business profitably in TZ without "fleecing" the client as some people imply, why don't the same vocal individuals come here, invest in a hunting company and demonstrate to others how it is done. coffee
 
Posts: 1388 | Registered: 06 September 2008Reply With Quote
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As fulvio stated trophy fees and associated daily rates are based on the desirability of species of which there are limited quotas.

The high rollers are in a different league and there are operators who will cater for them. For the majority, there are a plethora of options and price ranges to choose from. Free range hunting has always been expensive because of the auxiliary costs of maintaining wilderness areas and infrastructure.

Really it is about what you can afford and research your best possible options within that price range.

AR has always been an important reference.


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Posts: 8757 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Someone brought a Chinese 22 rimfire under the mark of UMARIX.

He said it does not shoot well.

After looking at it, and seeing how rough everything about is, no wonder.

I cleaned it, I oiled it, but it still feels as if it is full of sand.

To give him an idea, I let him handle and shoot one of the Anschutz rifles we have here.

Day and night difference does not even come close as a comparison.

On costs penny, one costs dollars.

Both shoot 22 rim fire.


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Posts: 55873 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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I think we all should have learned something over the last few years about pricing. JUst a few years ago we were all told they needed 80,000 for and ele hunt or 20,000 for a buff. Look at those hunts now. Half or less for same hunts. Back then was told if they did not get those prices they could not stay in business.

3 or so years later lower prices all the same guys doing business and selling hunts for lower prices. It is all simple supply and demand. Dont care which country SA or tanz or zim if they can charge more they will if not prices fall like they are at now.

I pick places I can hunt based on my budget and will ask for better prices on places I want to hunt if more then I want to pay. They can say yes or no but I will ask because it never hurts to ask.
 
Posts: 364 | Location: macungie , Pa | Registered: 21 March 2014Reply With Quote
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I got a quote for a Tanzania Lion/Buffalo (2) hunt last year, of course because of Covid everything got pushed back.

Daily rate $3,611/day
License Fee $7,600
Trophy Fee lion $10,750
Buffalo $5,000 first one $3,500 the subsequent.
Plus, for lion, you are looking at $10K - $15K for bait trophy fees.

The numbers above were consistent (more or less) with other outfitters from Tanzania.
 
Posts: 924 | Location: Southern CA | Registered: 01 January 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by tanks:
I got a quote for a Tanzania Lion/Buffalo (2) hunt last year, of course because of Covid everything got pushed back.

Daily rate $3,611/day
License Fee $7,600
Trophy Fee lion $10,750
Buffalo $5,000 first one $3,500 the subsequent.
Plus, for lion, you are looking at $10K - $15K for bait trophy fees.

The numbers above were consistent (more or less) with other outfitters from Tanzania.


Probably save a bunch of dough and I'd bet a higher chance at success in Zambia.


Formerly "Nganga"
 
Posts: 2530 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: 26 April 2010Reply With Quote
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I find the discrepancies in price interesting, but also difficult to reconcile in my mind.

The quote I got for a 16-day hunt in western Tanzania this October is $35,600 inclusive of daily rate, 21-day license, taxes, dip & pack. Trophy fees & firearms import permit ($700 for 2 rifles) not included, nor would charter from DAR be included. I need to save where I can, so am flying commercial to Mpanda, then a 4-hour drive to camp. 3-buffalo, leopard, sable and some other PG. While it’s expensive, I think it’s a very reasonable deal for Tanzania with a high quality PH and area.
 
Posts: 3260 | Location: California | Registered: 01 January 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by tanks:
I got a quote for a Tanzania Lion/Buffalo (2) hunt last year, of course because of Covid everything got pushed back.

Daily rate $3,611/day
License Fee $7,600
Trophy Fee lion $10,750
Buffalo $5,000 first one $3,500 the subsequent.
Plus, for lion, you are looking at $10K - $15K for bait trophy fees.

The numbers above were consistent (more or less) with other outfitters from Tanzania.


Probably save a bunch of dough and I'd bet a higher chance at success in Zambia.


I am actually thinking about Zambia for next year instead. Have been impressed by some of the outfitters' take.
 
Posts: 924 | Location: Southern CA | Registered: 01 January 2014Reply With Quote
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