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Malapati tusker / Nixon
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So I hear the client is from Germany, and this is his VERY FIRST ELEPHANT!!!2020

Why does that sort of thing never happen to me, why???


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4884 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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I could be wrong but the last elephants taken over 120 lbs were in Ethiopia in the mid 80's.

Goeff Broom took one in Longido, TZ in the 90's over 100 but I don't think it topped 120.
 
Posts: 1853 | Location: St. Charles, MO | Registered: 02 August 2012Reply With Quote
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I'm happy for him
I hear you Aaron, but I've been lucky aplenty so life is good


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
I could be wrong but the last elephants taken over 120 lbs were in Ethiopia in the mid 80's.

Goeff Broom took one in Longido, TZ in the 90's over 100 but I don't think it topped 120.


Had to drag out my SCI Record Book circa 1990:

3/86 - 145 X 143 - Ethiopia, Akobo Valley
7/86 - 144 x 138 - Ethiopia, Gambella
2/89 - 125 x 133 - Ethiopia, Goderre
5/86 - 123 x 121 - Ethiopia, Ilubabor
 
Posts: 1853 | Location: St. Charles, MO | Registered: 02 August 2012Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
I could be wrong but the last elephants taken over 120 lbs were in Ethiopia in the mid 80's.

Goeff Broom took one in Longido, TZ in the 90's over 100 but I don't think it topped 120.


Had to drag out my SCI Record Book circa 1990:

3/86 - 145 X 143 - Ethiopia, Akobo Valley
7/86 - 144 x 138 - Ethiopia, Gambella
2/89 - 125 x 133 - Ethiopia, Goderre
5/86 - 123 x 121 - Ethiopia, Ilubabor


Are there any similar trophies coming out or remaining in ethopia?

Killing old tuskers is justified at best with either the hunter gets it or the poacher get its. The old beast is dead anyway. But this is not hunting as conservation.

I would like to see other Zim PH some who specialize in hunting elephants to comment. The only thing I heard in conversations was the drought forced the old bull out of national park. Hunting a similar one after a long walk with a double would 99.99999 percent entail joining a poaching party in a national park - there are no animals like this left in any regular huning area.

What I don't get is all the hoopla over cecil and even wild lion aging when end of day a lion is a short life span predator - these elephants - old tuskers - are iconic - they won't be replaced if ever for decades.

At least kruger will save a few.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
I could be wrong but the last elephants taken over 120 lbs were in Ethiopia in the mid 80's.

Goeff Broom took one in Longido, TZ in the 90's over 100 but I don't think it topped 120.


Had to drag out my SCI Record Book circa 1990:

3/86 - 145 X 143 - Ethiopia, Akobo Valley
7/86 - 144 x 138 - Ethiopia, Gambella
2/89 - 125 x 133 - Ethiopia, Goderre
5/86 - 123 x 121 - Ethiopia, Ilubabor


Are there any similar trophies coming out or remaining in ethopia?

Killing old tuskers is justified at best with either the hunter gets it or the poacher get its. The old beast is dead anyway. But this is not hunting as conservation.

I would like to see other Zim PH some who specialize in hunting elephants to comment. The only thing I heard in conversations was the drought forced the old bull out of national park. Hunting a similar one after a long walk with a double would 99.99999 percent entail joining a poaching party in a national park - there are no animals like this left in any regular huning area.

What I don't get is all the hoopla over cecil and even wild lion aging when end of day a lion is a short life span predator - these elephants - old tuskers - are iconic - they won't be replaced if ever for decades.

At least kruger will save a few.

Mike


Afraid not Mike it was pretty much over by the early/mid 90's. Rich Elliot, who posts here from time to time was there and saw it. On a post some time ago Rich said "Gambella is a cornfield now". There are still pockets of elephant there but don't expect anything big. It was a nice little run for those that made it there in 86' especially.
 
Posts: 1853 | Location: St. Charles, MO | Registered: 02 August 2012Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
I could be wrong but the last elephants taken over 120 lbs were in Ethiopia in the mid 80's.

Goeff Broom took one in Longido, TZ in the 90's over 100 but I don't think it topped 120.


Had to drag out my SCI Record Book circa 1990:

3/86 - 145 X 143 - Ethiopia, Akobo Valley
7/86 - 144 x 138 - Ethiopia, Gambella
2/89 - 125 x 133 - Ethiopia, Goderre
5/86 - 123 x 121 - Ethiopia, Ilubabor


Are there any similar trophies coming out or remaining in ethopia?

Killing old tuskers is justified at best with either the hunter gets it or the poacher get its. The old beast is dead anyway. But this is not hunting as conservation.

I would like to see other Zim PH some who specialize in hunting elephants to comment. The only thing I heard in conversations was the drought forced the old bull out of national park. Hunting a similar one after a long walk with a double would 99.99999 percent entail joining a poaching party in a national park - there are no animals like this left in any regular huning area.

What I don't get is all the hoopla over cecil and even wild lion aging when end of day a lion is a short life span predator - these elephants - old tuskers - are iconic - they won't be replaced if ever for decades.

At least kruger will save a few.

Mike


Afraid not Mike it was pretty much over by the early/mid 90's. Rich Elliot, who posts here from time to time was there and saw it. On a post some time ago Rich said "Gambella is a cornfield now". There are still pockets of elephant there but don't expect anything big. It was a nice little run for those that made it there in 86' especially.


Sad - I hate it when this happens. I know for a fact African wild life can come back fast with care effort and a few good bore wells. But elephants to reach a majestic size will take a human lifetime.

I hate it when the justification is the hunter gets it before the poacher does - that may be reality but it significantly diminishes the whole hunting experience and tradition.

A side story my first hunt in Africa - I was hanging out in the lodge at save safaris in the afternoon looking at baboons as Leon duPlessis took his nap Cool Mike Payne came over I wanted to chat with him and saw there was a coffee table book on Tuskers of Kruger. I flipped thru the book and spoke to Mike Payne. Mike's grandfather, father, him and soon his son will have hunted elephants in zim - it's a family tradition. Surrounded by 2000 elephants in the save - I flipped thru the book and asked when will there be only like these Kruger Tuskers in the save. He said not in our lifetime - I was 39 then and Mike a year or two older.

Once they are gone - they are gone for a long time.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I hunted Sengwe 1 and 2 and was able to follow a bull with a measured 25.5 inch track. Followed that track three times in 14 days but never caught up. Could have been a tuskless but in my dreams it was this bull. When you look across the Limpopo and see Kruger these are the bulls you dream about. Good on that hunter if he really appreciates it as many of us would.
 
Posts: 914 | Registered: 06 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
I could be wrong but the last elephants taken over 120 lbs were in Ethiopia in the mid 80's.

Goeff Broom took one in Longido, TZ in the 90's over 100 but I don't think it topped 120.


Had to drag out my SCI Record Book circa 1990:

3/86 - 145 X 143 - Ethiopia, Akobo Valley
7/86 - 144 x 138 - Ethiopia, Gambella
2/89 - 125 x 133 - Ethiopia, Goderre
5/86 - 123 x 121 - Ethiopia, Ilubabor


Are there any similar trophies coming out or remaining in ethopia?

Killing old tuskers is justified at best with either the hunter gets it or the poacher get its. The old beast is dead anyway. But this is not hunting as conservation.

I would like to see other Zim PH some who specialize in hunting elephants to comment. The only thing I heard in conversations was the drought forced the old bull out of national park. Hunting a similar one after a long walk with a double would 99.99999 percent entail joining a poaching party in a national park - there are no animals like this left in any regular huning area.

What I don't get is all the hoopla over cecil and even wild lion aging when end of day a lion is a short life span predator - these elephants - old tuskers - are iconic - they won't be replaced if ever for decades.

At least kruger will save a few.

Mike


Afraid not Mike it was pretty much over by the early/mid 90's. Rich Elliot, who posts here from time to time was there and saw it. On a post some time ago Rich said "Gambella is a cornfield now". There are still pockets of elephant there but don't expect anything big. It was a nice little run for those that made it there in 86' especially.


Sad - I hate it when this happens. I know for a fact African wild life can come back fast with care effort and a few good bore wells. But elephants to reach a majestic size will take a human lifetime.

I hate it when the justification is the hunter gets it before the poacher does - that may be reality but it significantly diminishes the whole hunting experience and tradition.

A side story my first hunt in Africa - I was hanging out in the lodge at save safaris in the afternoon looking at baboons as Leon duPlessis took his nap Cool Mike Payne came over I wanted to chat with him and saw there was a coffee table book on Tuskers of Kruger. I flipped thru the book and spoke to Mike Payne. Mike's grandfather, father, him and soon his son will have hunted elephants in zim - it's a family tradition. Surrounded by 2000 elephants in the save - I flipped thru the book and asked when will there be only like these Kruger Tuskers in the save. He said not in our lifetime - I was 39 then and Mike a year or two older.

Once they are gone - they are gone for a long time.

Mike


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 36417 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


I am not being anti hunting or anything like that.

The reality is as the when this magnificent old bull crossed the park border if he ran into hunters he would be shot and maybe killed. Nixon ain't going to tell a paying client that elephant is too big old majestic iconic to shoot. Lets hope we run into a smaller one. That is the reality of the hunting business nothing more nothing less - $20k-$50k vacations the client gets respect/service/freedom to do what $20k-$50k buys.

But the argument that if the hunter does not get it the poacher does throws the whole hunting as conservation and hunting as a social good out the window - we are just trying to get the resource in this crazy resource grabbing game. The really sad part is this full grounded in reality and the actual world. This is a limited resources that is up for grabs - better the legal players gets it than the illegal one but the legal players adds very little to the resources (elephant) over time and the poacher nothing at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say this is africa but the reality is stark - old magnificent tuskers are getting killed and will not be there for a long time or maybe never.

We have standards how a resource should be harvested - double rifle, not from the truck, after a proper walk and stalk. But the question to ask is should the resource be harvested and if the only justification is us hunters rather than the poacher it is just sad.

I only have this issues with tuskers cause I don't think we can recreate them in an economic lifetime or a cost benefit framework. If we use present value analysis - tusker elephants fall off the screen. They take just too long to fall into a framework - corporation live and die in 20-40 year cycles.

I cannot propose any firm solutions. The reality might be hunter or poacher. But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.

For me - I like elephant tusk i think they make cool trophies. I have zero interest in killing one. So I may just make some fibre glass ones to add to my artificial moose antlers from restoration hardware. I don't expect most AR members and elephant hunters to like my path - they may want trophies but its going to tough getting them into the US.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Excellent elephant and I cannot see what should be wrong with shooting an animal which is so obviously past his prime and will die anyway soon.
 
Posts: 701 | Location: Germany | Registered: 24 February 2006Reply With Quote
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I share some of the thoughts about it being to much of a magnificent animal to shoot, but with the little knowledge I have about elephants I can tell it was a really old bull, with all that hanging skin, sunken temples and protruding spine, likely in its last years so definitely past its prime with a good chance to spread its genes and with a much clean quicker death that would have been to starve to death.


Manuel Maldonado
MM Sonoran Desert Hunters
https://www.facebook.com/huntingMM
 
Posts: 530 | Location: Hermosillo, Sonora | Registered: 06 May 2013Reply With Quote
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At least the tusks will go to Germany and be appreciated as a magnificent trophy.....rather than cut up and sold all over China if it was taken by poachers.

And the Blaser got the job done Smiler
 
Posts: 15784 | Location: Australia and Saint Germain en Laye | Registered: 30 December 2013Reply With Quote
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Great hunt! Yes, magnificent animal, but he's undoubtedly done what he needed to do for the gene pool and I'd rather see this ivory in Germany than being marketed by ISIL after some poacher poisoned him.

“Elephant shot by Col J Verster, August 1967, on the north bank of the Lundi (now Runde) river in Gona-re-zhou park. The tusks weighed 103 and 132 pounds and diameter of the front foot was 18 inches. 1967-8.” Was the caption on a photo that showed the trophy that was supposedly the Dhlulamithi of Bvekenya Baranard fame (which would have been long dead by 1967). This Malapati bull rivals the big tuskers of long ago.
 
Posts: 409 | Registered: 30 July 2015Reply With Quote
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This bull is big medicine. I'm hearing some hand wringing in the comments. Fact is, no one thought this possible today, yet here it is. National parks are in place, they simply need protected from poaching (duh right). And they will continue to provide grand trophies for the lucky hunter. Congrats to all involved. They have let us all dream a bit more.
 
Posts: 3452 | Registered: 27 November 2014Reply With Quote
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Most of us hunters like to kill old animals past their prime with good trophies so this particular one is good outcome overall.
That's conservation/hunting in my book.
All the young ones get to live to get older, hopefully, bar poachers who don't differentiate
My bull was old, skin hanging, ribs showing, spine protruding and temples sunken. After the butchering work, Nixon told me he was on his last set of teeth so we did good he said.


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


I am not being anti hunting or anything like that.

The reality is as the when this magnificent old bull crossed the park border if he ran into hunters he would be shot and maybe killed. Nixon ain't going to tell a paying client that elephant is too big old majestic iconic to shoot. Lets hope we run into a smaller one. That is the reality of the hunting business nothing more nothing less - $20k-$50k vacations the client gets respect/service/freedom to do what $20k-$50k buys.

But the argument that if the hunter does not get it the poacher does throws the whole hunting as conservation and hunting as a social good out the window - we are just trying to get the resource in this crazy resource grabbing game. The really sad part is this full grounded in reality and the actual world. This is a limited resources that is up for grabs - better the legal players gets it than the illegal one but the legal players adds very little to the resources (elephant) over time and the poacher nothing at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say this is africa but the reality is stark - old magnificent tuskers are getting killed and will not be there for a long time or maybe never.

We have standards how a resource should be harvested - double rifle, not from the truck, after a proper walk and stalk. But the question to ask is should the resource be harvested and if the only justification is us hunters rather than the poacher it is just sad.

I only have this issues with tuskers cause I don't think we can recreate them in an economic lifetime or a cost benefit framework. If we use present value analysis - tusker elephants fall off the screen. They take just too long to fall into a framework - corporation live and die in 20-40 year cycles.

I cannot propose any firm solutions. The reality might be hunter or poacher. But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.

For me - I like elephant tusk i think they make cool trophies. I have zero interest in killing one. So I may just make some fibre glass ones to add to my artificial moose antlers from restoration hardware. I don't expect most AR members and elephant hunters to like my path - they may want trophies but its going to tough getting them into the US.

Mike


I say that there is one other scenario being completely missed here Mike. That is, the hunter gets him, the poacher gets him, or he dies of natural causes in a very short while . The fact is that taking this old bull IS the very essence of conservation through hunting in that only the oldest is taken. Taken well after his breeding days are over and he is on his way out from natural causes.

Yes, sad that this old boy is now gone, but he was going to be gone shortly anyway by the looks of him. If he dies by natural causes, there are NO FUNDS generated to support the conservation efforts and local communities. In this case, just the opposite occurred. Wishing him a natural death instead of by hunter at the end of his days is the same argument the PETA folks make. Remember the Adax lady on 60 Minutes stating she'd rather them go extinct than have anyone enjoy hunting them?

This old bull's genes have been spread. He was no longer contributing to the gene pool. Who's to say he doesn't have offspring roaming the park that are close to his impressiveness already? I'd surmise that he already has sons in the 30 or 40+ year range, and they probably have sons in the 20+ year range. Hardly a case of not replacing this grand old elephant for another 50 years.
 
Posts: 8484 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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It is true what Todd says and for that reason I would shoot him.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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had the pleasure of hunting with Greg Butler in 12 we had long talks about ele hunting. He had been hunting in Bots for many years at that point and they were talking about closing it. He had kept track of bulls he had taken over the years and to my surprise he told me they were getting bigger and bigger each year. I tried to argue with him but he had the facts, at least for Bots. This ele is a shooter make no bones about it.

I also spoke to a ph that was helping find the poisoned ele in the National Park in Zim. a few years back from a chopper. He told me that he was amazed on how many 80,90 and over he saw from the air alive and walking around.


NRA LIFE MEMBER
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Posts: 1366 | Location: SPARTANBURG SOUTH CAROLINA | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.


Mike,
I was applauding your thoughts above...not bashing...I have mixed similar feelings.

But in regards to USF&W...the ban will never be lifted no matter what as long as we have Secretary of Interiors of the likes of Sally Jewel. You have stated that you like Bernie Sanders for POTUS. Well...I imagine that Bernie and Sally have a lot in common.

The ivory ban will only be lifted if we get a pro-hunting Secretary of Interior. This is a strong reason for African hunters to consider Don Trump for POTUS. A man who's sons ARE Africans hunters and will likely name a conservative S.I.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 36417 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


I am not being anti hunting or anything like that.

The reality is as the when this magnificent old bull crossed the park border if he ran into hunters he would be shot and maybe killed. Nixon ain't going to tell a paying client that elephant is too big old majestic iconic to shoot. Lets hope we run into a smaller one. That is the reality of the hunting business nothing more nothing less - $20k-$50k vacations the client gets respect/service/freedom to do what $20k-$50k buys.

But the argument that if the hunter does not get it the poacher does throws the whole hunting as conservation and hunting as a social good out the window - we are just trying to get the resource in this crazy resource grabbing game. The really sad part is this full grounded in reality and the actual world. This is a limited resources that is up for grabs - better the legal players gets it than the illegal one but the legal players adds very little to the resources (elephant) over time and the poacher nothing at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say this is africa but the reality is stark - old magnificent tuskers are getting killed and will not be there for a long time or maybe never.

We have standards how a resource should be harvested - double rifle, not from the truck, after a proper walk and stalk. But the question to ask is should the resource be harvested and if the only justification is us hunters rather than the poacher it is just sad.

I only have this issues with tuskers cause I don't think we can recreate them in an economic lifetime or a cost benefit framework. If we use present value analysis - tusker elephants fall off the screen. They take just too long to fall into a framework - corporation live and die in 20-40 year cycles.

I cannot propose any firm solutions. The reality might be hunter or poacher. But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.

For me - I like elephant tusk i think they make cool trophies. I have zero interest in killing one. So I may just make some fibre glass ones to add to my artificial moose antlers from restoration hardware. I don't expect most AR members and elephant hunters to like my path - they may want trophies but its going to tough getting them into the US.

Mike


I say that there is one other scenario being completely missed here Mike. That is, the hunter gets him, the poacher gets him, or he dies of natural causes in a very short while . The fact is that taking this old bull IS the very essence of conservation through hunting in that only the oldest is taken. Taken well after his breeding days are over and he is on his way out from natural causes.

Yes, sad that this old boy is now gone, but he was going to be gone shortly anyway by the looks of him. If he dies by natural causes, there are NO FUNDS generated to support the conservation efforts and local communities. In this case, just the opposite occurred. Wishing him a natural death instead of by hunter at the end of his days is the same argument the PETA folks make. Remember the Adax lady on 60 Minutes stating she'd rather them go extinct than have anyone enjoy hunting them?

This old bull's genes have been spread. He was no longer contributing to the gene pool. Who's to say he doesn't have offspring roaming the park that are close to his impressiveness already? I'd surmise that he already has sons in the 30 or 40+ year range, and they probably have sons in the 20+ year range. Hardly a case of not replacing this grand old elephant for another 50 years.


Good post Todd!

And exactly why I stated if I could export the ivory...I would shoot him...but with the ban in place...would let him walk.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 36417 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff h:
had the pleasure of hunting with Greg Butler in 12 we had long talks about ele hunting. He had been hunting in Bots for many years at that point and they were talking about closing it. He had kept track of bulls he had taken over the years and to my surprise he told me they were getting bigger and bigger each year. I tried to argue with him but he had the facts, at least for Bots. This ele is a shooter make no bones about it.

I also spoke to a ph that was helping find the poisoned ele in the National Park in Zim. a few years back from a chopper. He told me that he was amazed on how many 80,90 and over he saw from the air alive and walking around.


Jeff - In Bots, that's very true and very easy to follow the logic if one thinks about it for a second. As the elephant population has increased over the decades, so does the number of bulls reaching maturity each decade. Thus, more and more bulls are becoming 30 - 40 plus years old, especially when considering how few Bots was actually shooting each year. Ronnie Blackbeard and Peter Hepburn both explained this very concept to me too, when I hunted elephants with them in CH 1 / CH2 in 2008. Makes perfect sense.

I've also hunted with Greg Butler in Bots back in 2003, very nice guy!!!


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
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Posts: 4884 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by tomahawker:

And they [national parks] will continue to provide grand trophies for the lucky hunter.



Sorry, I find that to be a pretty pathetic comment.


Mike
 
Posts: 21096 | Registered: 03 January 2006Reply With Quote
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The idea of waiting at or hanging around the boundaries of a park for a bull to cross turns me off somewhat.I have not shot an ele and would very much like to do so especially today while I still can but with this type of hunting I am not sure.There is a reason for a park.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
The idea of waiting at or hanging around the boundaries of a park for a bull to cross turns me off somewhat.I have not shot an ele and would very much like to do so especially today while I still can but with this type of hunting I am not sure. There is a reason for a park.


There is also a reason for the Safari Areas (Hunting Zones) surrounding the parks acting as buffer zones between the parks and farmers fields. If we are now going to start calling these buffer zones "unethical" to conduct hunts in, what's the purpose of having them? The park boundary is the park boundary. Off limits. The safari area surrounding the park is fair game IMO.

Jines, taken out of context, tomahawker's comment would be pathetic, but in fact, do the parks not feed the hunting areas surrounding them with excess and therefore huntable animals, providing a buffer zone to the "developed" farmers' fields? Isn't that their purpose? If so, tomahawker's statement is spot on as the occasional spectacular specimen will wander into those areas in search of additional room to roam when the park becomes over inhabited.
 
Posts: 8484 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
The idea of waiting at or hanging around the boundaries of a park for a bull to cross turns me off somewhat.I have not shot an ele and would very much like to do so especially today while I still can but with this type of hunting I am not sure. There is a reason for a park.


There is also a reason for the Safari Areas (Hunting Zones) surrounding the parks acting as buffer zones between the parks and farmers fields. If we are now going to start calling these buffer zones "unethical" to conduct hunts in, what's the purpose of having them? The park boundary is the park boundary. Off limits. The safari area surrounding the park is fair game IMO.

Jines, taken out of context, tomahawker's comment would be pathetic, but in fact, do the parks not feed the hunting areas surrounding them with excess and therefore huntable animals, providing a buffer zone to the "developed" farmers' fields? Isn't that their purpose? If so, tomahawker's statement is spot on as the occasional spectacular specimen will wander into those areas in search of additional room to roam when the park becomes over inhabited.

Perhaps there could be a zone between hunting areas and parks where there could be no hunting or farming or cutting trees.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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I am sure some of you have flown over Zim lately, as I did in a charter resently. The wild places are disappearing quickly. I was amazed how little is left for animals. If we cant hunt outside the parks or if its not in good practice where we going to hunt? This is not just happening in Zim but all over Africa as the population increases.
Lets stop hunting outside the parks and see who wins the animals or the poachers...


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Posts: 1366 | Location: SPARTANBURG SOUTH CAROLINA | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
The idea of waiting at or hanging around the boundaries of a park for a bull to cross turns me off somewhat.I have not shot an ele and would very much like to do so especially today while I still can but with this type of hunting I am not sure. There is a reason for a park.


There is also a reason for the Safari Areas (Hunting Zones) surrounding the parks acting as buffer zones between the parks and farmers fields. If we are now going to start calling these buffer zones "unethical" to conduct hunts in, what's the purpose of having them? The park boundary is the park boundary. Off limits. The safari area surrounding the park is fair game IMO.

Jines, taken out of context, tomahawker's comment would be pathetic, but in fact, do the parks not feed the hunting areas surrounding them with excess and therefore huntable animals, providing a buffer zone to the "developed" farmers' fields? Isn't that their purpose? If so, tomahawker's statement is spot on as the occasional spectacular specimen will wander into those areas in search of additional room to roam when the park becomes over inhabited.




Perhaps there could be a zone between hunting areas and parks where there could be no hunting or farming or cutting trees.



You mean like a buffer zone to the buffer zone. Then we'll add a buffer zone to the buffer zone to the buffer zone. And then ...

Where does that logic end?

 
Posts: 8484 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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There goes the morning coffee..... rotflmo
 
Posts: 11636 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: 13 February 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
The idea of waiting at or hanging around the boundaries of a park for a bull to cross turns me off somewhat.I have not shot an ele and would very much like to do so especially today while I still can but with this type of hunting I am not sure. There is a reason for a park.


There is also a reason for the Safari Areas (Hunting Zones) surrounding the parks acting as buffer zones between the parks and farmers fields. If we are now going to start calling these buffer zones "unethical" to conduct hunts in, what's the purpose of having them? The park boundary is the park boundary. Off limits. The safari area surrounding the park is fair game IMO.

Jines, taken out of context, tomahawker's comment would be pathetic, but in fact, do the parks not feed the hunting areas surrounding them with excess and therefore huntable animals, providing a buffer zone to the "developed" farmers' fields? Isn't that their purpose? If so, tomahawker's statement is spot on as the occasional spectacular specimen will wander into those areas in search of additional room to roam when the park becomes over inhabited.




Perhaps there could be a zone between hunting areas and parks where there could be no hunting or farming or cutting trees.



You mean like a buffer zone to the buffer zone. Then we'll add a buffer zone to the buffer zone to the buffer zone. And then ...

Where does that logic end?



I owe you a beer for that one. rotflmo


Mac

 
Posts: 1720 | Location: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: 01 February 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:

Perhaps there could be a zone between hunting areas and parks where there could be no hunting or farming or cutting trees.


That would be called a park.

At some point, the the non hunting area stops and the hunting area begins. Call these areas what you wish, but there always be a line between hunting and non hunting areas and a legion of folks to argue how close to that line is 'ethical'.


Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps.
 
Posts: 3099 | Location: Southern US | Registered: 21 July 2002Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


I am not being anti hunting or anything like that.

The reality is as the when this magnificent old bull crossed the park border if he ran into hunters he would be shot and maybe killed. Nixon ain't going to tell a paying client that elephant is too big old majestic iconic to shoot. Lets hope we run into a smaller one. That is the reality of the hunting business nothing more nothing less - $20k-$50k vacations the client gets respect/service/freedom to do what $20k-$50k buys.

But the argument that if the hunter does not get it the poacher does throws the whole hunting as conservation and hunting as a social good out the window - we are just trying to get the resource in this crazy resource grabbing game. The really sad part is this full grounded in reality and the actual world. This is a limited resources that is up for grabs - better the legal players gets it than the illegal one but the legal players adds very little to the resources (elephant) over time and the poacher nothing at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say this is africa but the reality is stark - old magnificent tuskers are getting killed and will not be there for a long time or maybe never.

We have standards how a resource should be harvested - double rifle, not from the truck, after a proper walk and stalk. But the question to ask is should the resource be harvested and if the only justification is us hunters rather than the poacher it is just sad.

I only have this issues with tuskers cause I don't think we can recreate them in an economic lifetime or a cost benefit framework. If we use present value analysis - tusker elephants fall off the screen. They take just too long to fall into a framework - corporation live and die in 20-40 year cycles.

I cannot propose any firm solutions. The reality might be hunter or poacher. But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.

For me - I like elephant tusk i think they make cool trophies. I have zero interest in killing one. So I may just make some fibre glass ones to add to my artificial moose antlers from restoration hardware. I don't expect most AR members and elephant hunters to like my path - they may want trophies but its going to tough getting them into the US.

Mike


I say that there is one other scenario being completely missed here Mike. That is, the hunter gets him, the poacher gets him, or he dies of natural causes in a very short while . The fact is that taking this old bull IS the very essence of conservation through hunting in that only the oldest is taken. Taken well after his breeding days are over and he is on his way out from natural causes.

Yes, sad that this old boy is now gone, but he was going to be gone shortly anyway by the looks of him. If he dies by natural causes, there are NO FUNDS generated to support the conservation efforts and local communities. In this case, just the opposite occurred. Wishing him a natural death instead of by hunter at the end of his days is the same argument the PETA folks make. Remember the Adax lady on 60 Minutes stating she'd rather them go extinct than have anyone enjoy hunting them?

This old bull's genes have been spread. He was no longer contributing to the gene pool. Who's to say he doesn't have offspring roaming the park that are close to his impressiveness already? I'd surmise that he already has sons in the 30 or 40+ year range, and they probably have sons in the 20+ year range. Hardly a case of not replacing this grand old elephant for another 50 years.


Good post Todd!

And exactly why I stated if I could export the ivory...I would shoot him...but with the ban in place...would let him walk.


All these old tuskers of Kruger are most likely recovered after they die of natural causes.

http://www.tuskersofafrica.com/tuskersn/duke.htm

http://sanparks.co.za/parks/kr...ers/magnificent7.php

http://www.360cities.net/image...ica-travel-channel-3

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/im...camp-480_295x200.jpg

There are at best 40-50 animals like this in the world.

If the drought forces more into Zim and they get hunted and killed on the park and national boundary - South Africa will do something. Fence, bore wells, gps collars, death nail to transfrontier park idea - https://www.bing.com/images/se...e8f5d22o0&ajaxhist=0

These are iconic animals that support a much larger tourism business. Krueger and its old tuskers are a real economic and national asset for South Africa.

Let us not kid ourselves about the whole hunting as conservation idea for trophy elephants - 100 pounders only reside in national parks. There is not a single operator with a time horizon or business model long enough to allow trophy elephants to grow to 100 pounds.

Like I said earlier a 50 pounder harvested in the Save after all the operators have done surveys and even done culls (not sold as tuskless or cow hunts) is much easier to justify as hunters than shooting a 100 pounder outside a national park. One is scientifically harvested in a proper game management system - the other is a target of opportunity and best justified as got it before the poacher did.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


I am not being anti hunting or anything like that.

The reality is as the when this magnificent old bull crossed the park border if he ran into hunters he would be shot and maybe killed. Nixon ain't going to tell a paying client that elephant is too big old majestic iconic to shoot. Lets hope we run into a smaller one. That is the reality of the hunting business nothing more nothing less - $20k-$50k vacations the client gets respect/service/freedom to do what $20k-$50k buys.

But the argument that if the hunter does not get it the poacher does throws the whole hunting as conservation and hunting as a social good out the window - we are just trying to get the resource in this crazy resource grabbing game. The really sad part is this full grounded in reality and the actual world. This is a limited resources that is up for grabs - better the legal players gets it than the illegal one but the legal players adds very little to the resources (elephant) over time and the poacher nothing at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say this is africa but the reality is stark - old magnificent tuskers are getting killed and will not be there for a long time or maybe never.

We have standards how a resource should be harvested - double rifle, not from the truck, after a proper walk and stalk. But the question to ask is should the resource be harvested and if the only justification is us hunters rather than the poacher it is just sad.

I only have this issues with tuskers cause I don't think we can recreate them in an economic lifetime or a cost benefit framework. If we use present value analysis - tusker elephants fall off the screen. They take just too long to fall into a framework - corporation live and die in 20-40 year cycles.

I cannot propose any firm solutions. The reality might be hunter or poacher. But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.

For me - I like elephant tusk i think they make cool trophies. I have zero interest in killing one. So I may just make some fibre glass ones to add to my artificial moose antlers from restoration hardware. I don't expect most AR members and elephant hunters to like my path - they may want trophies but its going to tough getting them into the US.

Mike


I say that there is one other scenario being completely missed here Mike. That is, the hunter gets him, the poacher gets him, or he dies of natural causes in a very short while . The fact is that taking this old bull IS the very essence of conservation through hunting in that only the oldest is taken. Taken well after his breeding days are over and he is on his way out from natural causes.

Yes, sad that this old boy is now gone, but he was going to be gone shortly anyway by the looks of him. If he dies by natural causes, there are NO FUNDS generated to support the conservation efforts and local communities. In this case, just the opposite occurred. Wishing him a natural death instead of by hunter at the end of his days is the same argument the PETA folks make. Remember the Adax lady on 60 Minutes stating she'd rather them go extinct than have anyone enjoy hunting them?

This old bull's genes have been spread. He was no longer contributing to the gene pool. Who's to say he doesn't have offspring roaming the park that are close to his impressiveness already? I'd surmise that he already has sons in the 30 or 40+ year range, and they probably have sons in the 20+ year range. Hardly a case of not replacing this grand old elephant for another 50 years.


Good post Todd!

And exactly why I stated if I could export the ivory...I would shoot him...but with the ban in place...would let him walk.


All these old tuskers of Kruger are most likely recovered after they die of natural causes.

http://www.tuskersofafrica.com/tuskersn/duke.htm

http://sanparks.co.za/parks/kr...ers/magnificent7.php

http://www.360cities.net/image...ica-travel-channel-3

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/im...camp-480_295x200.jpg

There are at best 40-50 animals like this in the world.

If the drought forces more into Zim and they get hunted and killed on the park and national boundary - South Africa will do something. Fence, bore wells, gps collars, death nail to transfrontier park idea - https://www.bing.com/images/se...e8f5d22o0&ajaxhist=0

These are iconic animals that support a much larger tourism business. Krueger and its old tuskers are a real economic and national asset for South Africa.

Let us not kid ourselves about the whole hunting as conservation idea for trophy elephants - 100 pounders only reside in national parks. There is not a single operator with a time horizon or business model long enough to allow trophy elephants to grow to 100 pounds.

Like I said earlier a 50 pounder harvested in the Save after all the operators have done surveys and even done culls (not sold as tuskless or cow hunts) is much easier to justify as hunters than shooting a 100 pounder outside a national park. One is scientifically harvested in a proper game management system - the other is a target of opportunity and best justified as got it before the poacher did.

Mike


An emotional argument. Still doesn't address the fact that this old bull was very likely at the end of his life cycle anyway, given his appearance of extreme age.

And I addressed the issue of the operator's timelines. This old boy surely has 30 to 40+ year old offspring in the field at this point. And they certainly have 20 to 30 year old offspring at this point. And so on, and so on. It's the life cycle.
 
Posts: 8484 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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I might have missed it thru all the replys. Do we no for sure which area it was shot in.

Everyone keeps referring to Kruger. When I was on my buff hunt a guy came in to hunt elephant. He had a hunt scheduled in the save that was canceled.
Nixon had them hunting a bull in the northern most part of malapati. He estimated him in the 75 lbs. range. He said there was another bull in the 90s in that area too.
From what I saw of Gonarezhou it is very thick and seldom visited. No telling what might be in there.


I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same.
 
Posts: 813 | Location: In the shadow of Currahee | Registered: 29 January 2009Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


I am not being anti hunting or anything like that.

The reality is as the when this magnificent old bull crossed the park border if he ran into hunters he would be shot and maybe killed. Nixon ain't going to tell a paying client that elephant is too big old majestic iconic to shoot. Lets hope we run into a smaller one. That is the reality of the hunting business nothing more nothing less - $20k-$50k vacations the client gets respect/service/freedom to do what $20k-$50k buys.

But the argument that if the hunter does not get it the poacher does throws the whole hunting as conservation and hunting as a social good out the window - we are just trying to get the resource in this crazy resource grabbing game. The really sad part is this full grounded in reality and the actual world. This is a limited resources that is up for grabs - better the legal players gets it than the illegal one but the legal players adds very little to the resources (elephant) over time and the poacher nothing at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say this is africa but the reality is stark - old magnificent tuskers are getting killed and will not be there for a long time or maybe never.

We have standards how a resource should be harvested - double rifle, not from the truck, after a proper walk and stalk. But the question to ask is should the resource be harvested and if the only justification is us hunters rather than the poacher it is just sad.

I only have this issues with tuskers cause I don't think we can recreate them in an economic lifetime or a cost benefit framework. If we use present value analysis - tusker elephants fall off the screen. They take just too long to fall into a framework - corporation live and die in 20-40 year cycles.

I cannot propose any firm solutions. The reality might be hunter or poacher. But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.

For me - I like elephant tusk i think they make cool trophies. I have zero interest in killing one. So I may just make some fibre glass ones to add to my artificial moose antlers from restoration hardware. I don't expect most AR members and elephant hunters to like my path - they may want trophies but its going to tough getting them into the US.

Mike


I say that there is one other scenario being completely missed here Mike. That is, the hunter gets him, the poacher gets him, or he dies of natural causes in a very short while . The fact is that taking this old bull IS the very essence of conservation through hunting in that only the oldest is taken. Taken well after his breeding days are over and he is on his way out from natural causes.

Yes, sad that this old boy is now gone, but he was going to be gone shortly anyway by the looks of him. If he dies by natural causes, there are NO FUNDS generated to support the conservation efforts and local communities. In this case, just the opposite occurred. Wishing him a natural death instead of by hunter at the end of his days is the same argument the PETA folks make. Remember the Adax lady on 60 Minutes stating she'd rather them go extinct than have anyone enjoy hunting them?

This old bull's genes have been spread. He was no longer contributing to the gene pool. Who's to say he doesn't have offspring roaming the park that are close to his impressiveness already? I'd surmise that he already has sons in the 30 or 40+ year range, and they probably have sons in the 20+ year range. Hardly a case of not replacing this grand old elephant for another 50 years.


Good post Todd!

And exactly why I stated if I could export the ivory...I would shoot him...but with the ban in place...would let him walk.


All these old tuskers of Kruger are most likely recovered after they die of natural causes.

http://www.tuskersofafrica.com/tuskersn/duke.htm

http://sanparks.co.za/parks/kr...ers/magnificent7.php

http://www.360cities.net/image...ica-travel-channel-3

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/im...camp-480_295x200.jpg

There are at best 40-50 animals like this in the world.

If the drought forces more into Zim and they get hunted and killed on the park and national boundary - South Africa will do something. Fence, bore wells, gps collars, death nail to transfrontier park idea - https://www.bing.com/images/se...e8f5d22o0&ajaxhist=0

These are iconic animals that support a much larger tourism business. Krueger and its old tuskers are a real economic and national asset for South Africa.

Let us not kid ourselves about the whole hunting as conservation idea for trophy elephants - 100 pounders only reside in national parks. There is not a single operator with a time horizon or business model long enough to allow trophy elephants to grow to 100 pounds.

Like I said earlier a 50 pounder harvested in the Save after all the operators have done surveys and even done culls (not sold as tuskless or cow hunts) is much easier to justify as hunters than shooting a 100 pounder outside a national park. One is scientifically harvested in a proper game management system - the other is a target of opportunity and best justified as got it before the poacher did.

Mike


An emotional argument. Still doesn't address the fact that this old bull was very likely at the end of his life cycle anyway, given his appearance of extreme age.

And I addressed the issue of the operator's timelines. This old boy surely has 30 to 40+ year old offspring in the field at this point. And they certainly have 20 to 30 year old offspring at this point. And so on, and so on. It's the life cycle.


Nothing emotional here just presented facts that old kruger bulls tusk and skulls are recovered and preserved in a museum for public viewing, old Krueger bulls are a tourist attraction, they have books and websites built around them most are named. They are more of an economic asset than the trophy fee collected by Nixon - that is reality and facts.

If this bull wandered into timbuvati I bet it would not be shot even if they had a permit.

I have gotten some more emotional pm from a few south african and some Krueger park official thoughts on the elephant.

As to your operator time line - you really think Nixon stays up at night worrying about the genetics of the elephant herd he hunts from. They are located in a national park of a another country !!!

Let's not confuse the business of hunting, the participation in a hunt with some great social conservation goal.

There are no isis funding poachers or some big Chinese ivory poaching ring operating inside krueger as some have implied on this thread.

I would really like to see other Zim PH who specialize in hunting elephants or those who also run tourist photo safari business in national park to comment on this elephant.

Do we at least all agree that elephant of this size and tusk quality can only be hunted when they stray from a national park?

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:


Good thoughts Mike. tu2

If I was hunting ele today with the ban...I would hesitate to shoot this bull for sure. With out the ban...I would. I am glad he is going to Germany...his teeth will probably garner respect there among hunters.


I am not being anti hunting or anything like that.

The reality is as the when this magnificent old bull crossed the park border if he ran into hunters he would be shot and maybe killed. Nixon ain't going to tell a paying client that elephant is too big old majestic iconic to shoot. Lets hope we run into a smaller one. That is the reality of the hunting business nothing more nothing less - $20k-$50k vacations the client gets respect/service/freedom to do what $20k-$50k buys.

But the argument that if the hunter does not get it the poacher does throws the whole hunting as conservation and hunting as a social good out the window - we are just trying to get the resource in this crazy resource grabbing game. The really sad part is this full grounded in reality and the actual world. This is a limited resources that is up for grabs - better the legal players gets it than the illegal one but the legal players adds very little to the resources (elephant) over time and the poacher nothing at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say this is africa but the reality is stark - old magnificent tuskers are getting killed and will not be there for a long time or maybe never.

We have standards how a resource should be harvested - double rifle, not from the truck, after a proper walk and stalk. But the question to ask is should the resource be harvested and if the only justification is us hunters rather than the poacher it is just sad.

I only have this issues with tuskers cause I don't think we can recreate them in an economic lifetime or a cost benefit framework. If we use present value analysis - tusker elephants fall off the screen. They take just too long to fall into a framework - corporation live and die in 20-40 year cycles.

I cannot propose any firm solutions. The reality might be hunter or poacher. But the USFW will look at the elephant ban in a data centric framework - if the argument is let us import elephant tusk cause it is us hunters or the poacher we are doomed. The same argument that it is africa let the hunter kill the elephant also will insure that USFW will require an unsurmountable hurdle from african governments and hunting organizations to get the ban lifted.

For me - I like elephant tusk i think they make cool trophies. I have zero interest in killing one. So I may just make some fibre glass ones to add to my artificial moose antlers from restoration hardware. I don't expect most AR members and elephant hunters to like my path - they may want trophies but its going to tough getting them into the US.

Mike


I say that there is one other scenario being completely missed here Mike. That is, the hunter gets him, the poacher gets him, or he dies of natural causes in a very short while . The fact is that taking this old bull IS the very essence of conservation through hunting in that only the oldest is taken. Taken well after his breeding days are over and he is on his way out from natural causes.

Yes, sad that this old boy is now gone, but he was going to be gone shortly anyway by the looks of him. If he dies by natural causes, there are NO FUNDS generated to support the conservation efforts and local communities. In this case, just the opposite occurred. Wishing him a natural death instead of by hunter at the end of his days is the same argument the PETA folks make. Remember the Adax lady on 60 Minutes stating she'd rather them go extinct than have anyone enjoy hunting them?

This old bull's genes have been spread. He was no longer contributing to the gene pool. Who's to say he doesn't have offspring roaming the park that are close to his impressiveness already? I'd surmise that he already has sons in the 30 or 40+ year range, and they probably have sons in the 20+ year range. Hardly a case of not replacing this grand old elephant for another 50 years.


Good post Todd!

And exactly why I stated if I could export the ivory...I would shoot him...but with the ban in place...would let him walk.


All these old tuskers of Kruger are most likely recovered after they die of natural causes.

http://www.tuskersofafrica.com/tuskersn/duke.htm

http://sanparks.co.za/parks/kr...ers/magnificent7.php

http://www.360cities.net/image...ica-travel-channel-3

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/im...camp-480_295x200.jpg

There are at best 40-50 animals like this in the world.

If the drought forces more into Zim and they get hunted and killed on the park and national boundary - South Africa will do something. Fence, bore wells, gps collars, death nail to transfrontier park idea - https://www.bing.com/images/se...e8f5d22o0&ajaxhist=0

These are iconic animals that support a much larger tourism business. Krueger and its old tuskers are a real economic and national asset for South Africa.

Let us not kid ourselves about the whole hunting as conservation idea for trophy elephants - 100 pounders only reside in national parks. There is not a single operator with a time horizon or business model long enough to allow trophy elephants to grow to 100 pounds.

Like I said earlier a 50 pounder harvested in the Save after all the operators have done surveys and even done culls (not sold as tuskless or cow hunts) is much easier to justify as hunters than shooting a 100 pounder outside a national park. One is scientifically harvested in a proper game management system - the other is a target of opportunity and best justified as got it before the poacher did.

Mike


An emotional argument. Still doesn't address the fact that this old bull was very likely at the end of his life cycle anyway, given his appearance of extreme age.

And I addressed the issue of the operator's timelines. This old boy surely has 30 to 40+ year old offspring in the field at this point. And they certainly have 20 to 30 year old offspring at this point. And so on, and so on. It's the life cycle.


Nothing emotional here just presented facts that old kruger bulls tusk and skulls are recovered and preserved in a museum for public viewing, old Krueger bulls are a tourist attraction, they have books and websites built around them most are named. They are more of an economic asset than the trophy fee collected by Nixon - that is reality and facts.

If this bull wandered into timbuvati I bet it would not be shot even if they had a permit.

I have gotten some more emotional pm from a few south african and some Krueger park official thoughts on the elephant.

As to your operator time line - you really think Nixon stays up at night worrying about the genetics of the elephant herd he hunts from. They are located in a national park of a another country !!!

Let's not confuse the business of hunting, the participation in a hunt with some great social conservation goal.

There are no isis funding poachers or some big Chinese ivory poaching ring operating inside krueger as some have implied on this thread.

I would really like to see other Zim PH who specialize in hunting elephants or those who also run tourist photo safari business in national park to comment on this elephant.

Do we at least all agree that elephant of this size and tusk quality can only be hunted when they stray from a national park?

Mike


Mike, you don't think there are poachers operating inside Kruger? I hear weekly about poachers killing animals inside Kruger National Park, especially rhino. You don't think there are Chinese connections there?
 
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Photo of hunter and PH.


Kathi

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"The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page."
 
Posts: 9349 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Todd

Let's not be emotional - let's stick to facts Smiler

There is a rhino poaching problem I did not say there was not.

What I said was there was not a isis funding or Chinese demand based ivory poaching problem in Krueger. That is a fact. Has there been occasional elephant poaching but it's not a serious danger to krueger tuskers.

https://africacheck.org/report...more-than-ten-years/

The big tuskers are safer at krueger than any other place in africa - why there are 40 100 pounders left there. Their bigger risk is crossing a national border and they are animals they don't know that human designed risk.

If we base hunting as hey it better we got the elephant before the poacher did then darn near everything is justified cause the poacher is a really really low bar.

Was this elephant walking with a target on his back the min he stepped into Zim - yes. This risk to krueger tusker right now may be drought bringing them into Zim and moz far more than any poacher in krueger.

Let's not kid ourselves into congratulating what a great animal killed when the policy impacts might be ban on all elephant trophy imports, building a fence to keep elephants in Krueger.

Also if the standard is better hunter than the poacher why do all this act of using a double rifle, walking and tracking the elephant ect. The poacher would not. Shoot from truck, use a accurate blaser, use a night scope, use a spot light. The poacher would use whatever means to kill his animal and get the economic benefit.

For krueger the best solution may be to approach a billionaire like Paul Allen get the money to build a barrier. Paul Allen is very anti hunting.

For Zim I have little faith - national parks is a shell of its former self. I have driven around the Save with leon duPlessis trying to get elephants back into the conservancy. We were not worried about some poacher shooting it but the national parks guy shooting for ration, selling meat , tusk. I will post a video of one that we got over and less than 5 min after he was back safe in the conservancy a national park jeep pulled up officers ready with 458 win to shoot a elephant.

Why I think USFW will have a serious issue with any data zim ever provides to lift the ban.

If we sent a standard it's hunters or the poachers the reaction from governments and public in development countries is going to be cannot bring trophies in. If african governments are so incompetent and corrupt to not protect their wildlife - Tanzania - it will get stopped at the importing country level.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Ok Mike, please, let's do keep the emotion out of the discussion and stick to some facts, and some hard and fast rules and regs, OK? May I ask a question or two?

Do you propose a stop to hunting the buffer zones (hunting areas) surrounding national parks?

If Yes, what is the plan to preserve those current hunting lands from going under the plow at a net loss to the wildlife in that area? Seems like two options there ... either expand the boundaries of the park into the buffer zones or expand the farmers fields into the buffer zones. With either option, will this increase or decrease human / wildlife conflict and how will that affect overall wildlife populations? With the loss of hunter's dollars in these buffer zones, will anti poaching efforts in the same area now be affected? How will this affect conservation efforts for both the land and the animals ... positively or negatively, or not at all? You don't seem to believe hunting has a conservation benefit at all.

If your answer to the original question is No, what is your plan to designate which animals are "off limits" and which are fair game when they wander out of the park and into the hunting area? Off the top of my head, I'd say it's a pretty sound conservation plan to only off take the fully mature individuals, preferably those that are no longer breeding. If that's the method by which we choose, I'd say this old bull fits that bill 100%. If some other method, I'd like to hear it, bearing in mind that we need a solution that can be followed by everyone who ventures afield with rifle in hand, not some arbitrary, ambiguous selection process that fits one hunter's idea of "ethical" selection and not everyone's?

From your posting history, I'd say it's a fair assessment to say you are anti elephant hunting. Of course that's your prerogative and if you prefer to not hunt them, so be it. No one is going to find fault in that decision. What I have a problem with is, and it's not with you personally, but rather the lack of a black and while distinction between how, what, and where hunting can take place absent an individual hunter's emotions labeling something as unethical after the fact when all the rules and regs were complied with 100%. That creates a trap that anyone can fall into at anytime depending on the "moral superiority" of the guy who has made the unethical proclamation. The true antis just love to watch us tear our own apart over things like that.
 
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Originally posted by Todd Williams:

What I have a problem with is, and it's not with you personally, but rather the lack of a black and while distinction between how, what, and where hunting can take place absent an individual hunter's emotions labeling something as unethical after the fact when all the rules and regs were complied with 100%. That creates a trap that anyone can fall into at anytime depending on the "moral superiority" of the guy who has made the unethical proclamation.



I guess while everyone is asking questions, I have a couple. So it is your view that hunting ethics never need to enter into the equation so long as all the rules and regulations were complied with 100%? Someone wants to shoot an immature, adolescent elephant bull that is A-Okay so long as the rules and regulations permit someone to use their quota for such a bull? Just trying to understand when, if ever, hunting ethics ever come into play.


Mike
 
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