I am planning to use the new woody solids on elephant in October in my 500 double.Hunting with CM safaris again.
The new projectiles are interesting.They are much longer than the traditional solids.I could not get enough R15 under them without extreme compression to the point of the case being sticky in the chamber.Not all rifles will behave this way but is was so with my Searcy.
Geoff McDonald was helpful with his experiences with the reloading info from his 500 which did not have the same issues though the loaded rounds were still,apparently, a snug fit in his rifle.
I had to load my rounds no longer than 89 mm so as not to be engage the rifling.Geoff
could load to 95.6 mm. in his rifle.I solved the problem by having my rifle rethroated.This required a throater being made in the USA and posted to Australia,sent to 'smith in another state in Australia(600miles away)and shipping the rifle to him and back-doable but you have to keen.
The rifle will now allow the OAL to reach 99mm.
However,the very broad nose of these new projectiles are a snugish fit into the throat of the chamber.If your loaded rounds are not perfect down to the odd thousanth of an inch thse begin to produced resistance as they enter the throat-not much and not every round but until I worked it out I was mystified why some rounds seamed to be engaging the rifling several mm's ealier than others.In the end I settled on rounds with OAL of 96.2 mm.
My present load with these projectiles is CCI 250 primer,HDS cases,96gns R15,a Kynock foam wad.
The chrono read an average of 2099fps 15' from the muzzle.This was only 4 rounds.
Just as Geoff McDonald promised these projectiles appear to deliver pressures and velocities very similar to his old SOFTS,not the old SOLIDS.
Will keep the forum abreast of developments.
Any comments.

Have a few comments, but nothing personal.

Firstly, why in the world are you using a wad when it is all crammed in there and still too long without a wad?

Secondly, seems like a rather drastic move to re-throat your rifle considering there are other monolithics around, that load up just fine, if that is what you wanted.

Third, why bother? A 570 gr. Woodleigh solid will just about over-power any elephant on earth, though it might be interesting to see their effect.

Fourthly, I sincerely applaud Woodleigh for taking the initiative and running the gauntlet on producing bullets for the old (and new) nitro express cartridges in all the correct diameters and weights, but not sure about bullets espoused by some guy with a B.S. ( )that require barrel mods. (just kidding).

And finally, it is a good thing if the HS bullets are "soft enough" that their pressure peaks are no higher than with their traditional lead core softs. Interesting result.

Thanks for the information.

Dear Will,
1)The wads were used after rethroating,not before.Geoff used a much bulkier powder than I do.
2)These are being advertised as the ultimate solution to the "soft or solid" question that presents itself under some hunting situations.
They do not deform,track true and deep,but provide a wound channel that looks like "tough" soft through soft tissue
3)If reloading is your hobby then why not try something new,Geoff McDonald obviously want us to try them
4)These are not producing lower pressures by being "soft" they are designed to have the main diameter of the projectile at or below bore diameter and only the driving bands engaged by the rifling.
http://www.woodleighbullets.co...tatically-stabilised

quote:

4)These are not producing lower pressures by being "soft" they are designed to have the main diameter of the projectile at or below bore diameter and only the driving bands engaged by the rifling.

That is also the great thing about the North Fork design, where only the bands are engaged and not the bullet shank.

BUT, and you knew there had to be one, they still result in a higher peak pressure than a traditional soft bullet at the same velocity, to the extent that I am aware.

It is of course possible that the combination of material hardness and thin bands make for similar pressures as traditional softs. Apparently the Wooldeigh HS's do that.

Will,

Our bullets do not result in higher peak pressures than traditional soft bullets, especially for the bore riding solids. When traveling down the barrel, only the thin bands come into contact as you have stated. The thin corresponding grooves allow the displaced copper an area to flow into instead of being exposed to high shear forces as in the case of traditional bullets, and thus a significantly higher copper fouling rate.

Our bullets are made from pure copper, not gilded metal (copper alloys). The Woodleigh HS, Barnes, and Nosler all make their solids from C360 otherwise known as machineable brass. Take a look at their respective material properties and you can see the difference in material hardness, plus one cannot anneal C360 to make it softer.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion.

Regards,
North Fork Technologies

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Will,

Our bullets do not result in higher peak pressures than traditional soft bullets, especially for the bore riding solids. When traveling down the barrel, only the thin bands come into contact as you have stated. The thin corresponding grooves allow the displaced copper an area to flow into instead of being exposed to high shear forces as in the case of traditional bullets, and thus a significantly higher copper fouling rate.

Our bullets are made from pure copper, not gilded metal (copper alloys). The Woodleigh HS, Barnes, and Nosler all make their solids from C360 otherwise known as machineable brass. Take a look at their respective material properties and you can see the difference in material hardness, plus one cannot anneal C360 to make it softer.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion.

Regards,
North Fork Technologies

Under the ideal case that may be true but from what I hear of anecdotal evidence the powder charge is typically reduced by a grain or two for the solid compared to the soft to get identical velocities for the two different bullets.

If this is the case, then it shows that the pressure is higher at the same powder charge for the solid than for the soft.

If that is not true I would like to see the evidence of such. It seems that it is likely true if the lead core of the softs is not under the bands. But I admit I have not sectioned any softs to see how far the core extents down from the front point of the bullet.

If the number of bands on the same weight & diameter of bullet exist for the softs and solids and the bonded core does not extent under the bands then I buy it, but if not I would like to see the data.

I am a big fan of the NF bullets so don't take the above as a criticism but I want to make sure it is true before I "believe" it.

Will,

Regarding the Soft Point (SP) North Forks:
The bonded lead nose core does not extend down into the full diameter shank of the bullet,
which is monometal copper, same as the solids.
The SP is no softer in the shank than the solids (FP or CP).
Any engraving force, start pressure, bearing friction, or obturation effects will be dependent on driving band or groove structure.

In fact the SPs that I have used had more bearing surface and were "grooved,"
not bore-riding-driving-banded like the FP and CP solids.

If the solids (FP and CP) require less powder to get to same velocity as the soft (SP) of the same weight:

It may be due to bullet length:
More bullet in the case, less net case capacity, less powder required to get to same pressure, etc.

Just a thought.

BTW, is this "permanent wound cavity" laughable or what? See below:

Don't try to baffle me with bullshit. They either is or they ain't.

Will, you're doing it again powder charge is not the pressure. When you are talking using greatly different bullet lengths, most due to material, AND with all else equal (powder, primer, case, rifle), velocity is a much better indicator of pressure than how much powder you put in. Just finishing up the 500N, everything went the same velocity at the same pressure. Yes, the powder "charges" were different but the velocity and the pressure required to get there were no different. In the case of the 500N, if you use a bullet that takes up another 1/4" of powder space, you are no longer working with a 500-3", you have a 500-2 3/4". The powder charge has to be adjusted accordingly. When it is, everything is back to "normal". I thought we had already talked about this. When I swing through Kansas, I'll drop you off some of my memory pills. They work pretty good. That is if I can remember where Kansas is

For any bullet, velocity is an indication of pressure. If powder mass has no effect on pressure, then why have it at all?

If you take a longer bullet such as the mono's (maybe the NF solid vs. the soft) and decrease the inner volume of the case the pressure is going to be higher due to the decrease in volume. To compensate for that to keep the original velocity the powder charge (internal energy) has to be decreased. (Okay I admit it; this is seen in the lighter the bullet the more powder is required to get the same bullet energies).

So maybe I didn't ask the additional question: How much of the bullet sticks down into the case?

If the same volume of bullet sticks down into the case, then I'll buy it that the pressures and velocities are the same between the NF solids and softs, but only if the powder masses are the same. If the powder mass differs between the solids and softs to obtain the same velocity then they are different acting bullets, for whatever reason.

So the question is: are the NF solids and softs the same below the lip of the case?

Never hurts to try to keep me on the straight and narrow.

has anyone worked up a load for 458 win mag with this bullet yet? I would be interested to know what they came up with??

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
has anyone worked up a load for 458 win mag with this bullet yet? I would be interested to know what they came up with??

I suspect that it will be too long and take up too much powder space to get meaningful velocities.

465H&H

yeep thats kinda what I was thinking to! but I just had to ask

Thanks

It's certainly a strange looking bullet but from my experience of Woodleigh bullets, I'd expect them to perform helluva well.

Time will tell.

yeep but if the shock channel is as large as the diagram shows it to be it would be amazing. to the best of my knowledge most bullets on the market now open a large shock channel midway through. if this design has a longer bigger shock channel it would be a improvement. I would like to see some ballistic gel video to see what the shock channel holds up. I know ballistic gel has no real life value but for a shock channel performance it would be ok

Wombat,

There must be a pretty good reason Woodleigh changed their recipe. I found out firsthand with a frontal on an ele earlier this year.

We found this Woodie under the skin behind the left ear


Having bent on the bull's noggin, it veered 45 degrees off course.

The NFs solved this problem. And I do have 2 boxes of Federal Woodies for sale, cheap.

Jack - How much do you want for them?

I have used them in my 404j on Cape Buffalo.

Here's the story.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=1#Post161312

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
has anyone worked up a load for 458 win mag with this bullet yet? I would be interested to know what they came up with??

I suspect that it will be too long and take up too much powder space to get meaningful velocities.

465H&H

I have loaded some of the 450grn ones but at this stage I just can't get them to feed.

Thanks ZO,
by the way my offer this stands BUDDY just let me know the date I need to leave!! I have new battery's for both camera's

Just back from another perfect hunt with CMSafaris and Buzz Charlton in Zimbabwe. Full report soon.
These are the new Woodleigh projectiles I recovered
Projectile below went from ele. left flank to break right shoulder during recovery shot



Projectile below went from one side of ele skull to other,side-on brain shot,just below brain.traversed largely bone,found off side ear



Projectile below entered large bull hippo head from above an behind brain shot-traversed about 12" bone



Projectile below ricocheted off a shear rock face behind the target area ,bounced backward over the shooting party and landed in back of safari car!!!!!!!!



Will provide more details if requested.
Consider performance perfect-will not be shooting any other style of projectile for heavy game in future.

quote:

bounced backward over the shooting party and landed in back of safari car!!!!!!!!

Yikes. Kinda like the 50 BMG ricochet video.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
has anyone worked up a load for 458 win mag with this bullet yet? I would be interested to know what they came up with??

I suspect that it will be too long and take up too much powder space to get meaningful velocities.

465H&H

I have loaded some of the 450grn ones but at this stage I just can't get them to feed.

I've loaded the 450's as well Adam, and they feed fine in my Remington 798.



In the pic below it shows the exit from my fist shot on the left shoulder and the entry from my second shot on the shoulder. This one ended up in the rear left leg.





Cheers,
Mark.

Gentleman:

On the Big Bore Forum there is some very interesting research, testing and developmental work going on with a particular thread called "Terminal Bullet Performance" posted by michael458. The work there deals with the same subjects and questions being raised here. The later pages have a allot interesting data that improve on existing bullet designs discussed here.

JDK

Wombat, The thing you need to be aware of is that the original woodliegh solids were made for use in doubles from an original design. which is that the bullet will flex more than the barrels. This may not be an issue for the newer doubles but it is important for older doubles because it can cause extra stress on the barrels and could result somewhere down the track in the barrels splitting apart. I use the oringinal solids in my 500 jeffery and in a 470 double that i sold to ozhunter,they may have "bent" which is due to the steel insert in the bullet being squeezed out but bottom line is the criiters are dead! so what the bullet looks like doesn't mean a great deal as far as I am concerned. its a personnel thing as I far as i can see.hope thans of help

Zhaba,
They might be an option for your 404? If you can get them to feed OK. Should be possible, Fatboy has done it with his 404 (Brno action though).
Oh, and Geoff at Woodleigh says that are not a problem for old Doubles, but I for one will stick with the tried and proven for a little longer, particularly when it comes to expensive doubles and words of warning.

It is my understanding that Geoff is recommending these new projectiles for doubles
since they stress the barrel less than conventional solids

quote:

The NFs solved this problem.