quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I just got back from Ethiopia.

The folks at the airport in the US (Dulles) really were a problem. The screening is a joke, essentially self report 3 symptoms and then check a temp. They didn't ask about exposures, they didn't ask about risk factors in my personal health, etc.

Don't get me started on my 4 hour "visit" with customs on arriving.

They gave me a 21 day "home quarantine" recommendation. Oh well. I can do quite a bit from home. It is what it is. Fortunately, my job situation is not a problem there (I got home to a call from my supervisor and told I can't come in for 2 weeks, now 3 after the CDC thing...) what with sick time, work from home, etc.

One thing I saw in Addis was that the Chinese (and presumably others) are playing games. The flights from China to Addis were open, and it looked like (to me) that because there were no travel restrictions (at that time anyhow) that they were flying to Addis and then flying to the US (or wherever) to get around the restrictions. Yes, the medical/customs folks at the airports were checking passports to see if folks were reporting correctly, but they still are here... and from my point of view, the whole "self quarantine" thing is a joke, as it isn't enforced.

This whole pandemic is not something that is being run in an evidence based manner, its being run politically. Frankly, its too late to "stop" the spread, pretty much every country has some exposure, and it will spread.

As it relates to the OP, from a contractual situation, I have yet to see a hunting contract (or insurance one) that looks out for the client. They are all written to protect the business entity from exposure. The "force majeure" or "acts of god" clauses all are essentially what a pandemic is a definition of.

From my point of view, insurance is a rip off here, and the ability of the hunting company morally to be as assistive as possible may be very limited. If COVID 19 shuts down travel through June, and the PH is booked from May-November, there really a limited amount of time that they can rebook you unless the government allows a season extension- and quotas are based on animal population and breeding, so the quota really can't be moved to the next year...

Morally, if the company has openings that same year, they should accommodate all that they can, and figure out some sort of fair way of sharing the loss amongst all that lost (including themselves), but they should not drive themselves out of business trying to placate guys who got screwed by fate, or in this case, by public hysteria.

COVID 19 is a nasty bug. But, without accurate population studies, we really can't know if it is more or less deadly or contagious than other diseases- we haven't had an accurate test for the disease long enough to know who has it and who doesn't. Right now, our stats are skewed by only the worst cases of respiratory disease being tested, at a variable confidence interval for the results being accurate. The control mechanisms that the government is using are not really effective as written (look at the whole spring break beach behavior going on now if you think it is...) and if they are not effective, why are we implementing them?

Politics.

The markets are what they are- but really, is a business worth 30% (or more) less than 2 months ago in real terms? Its all "what do you think it is worth given the disease collapsing the economy" rather than real value loss. Does anyone really think that we will see a 30% drop in the population due to COVID 19?

Excellent post. Thank you.

What I have done is NOT issue contracts that bind clients to hefty deposits but rather ask for a small nonrefundable deposit to keep the safari for a later date and I presume next year.

It is going to extremely tough as much of my expense is anti-poaching. I might see if I can apply for a grant from DSC?

Any client who has paid a NON REFUNDABLE deposit, should never ask for it back, especially in the situation we are in right now.

Everyone is going to suffer, not fair at all trying to make the other side suffer more.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Any client who has paid a NON REFUNDABLE deposit, should never ask for it back, especially in the situation we are in right now.

Everyone is going to suffer, not fair at all trying to make the other side suffer more.

I have my entire day rate paid for my April 10th hunt. I have been in touch with my PH and we are taking it day by day to re-scheduled when possible.

I agree, I would not ask for a refund...not fair to him plus I DO want to go

This is an awful situation. And, it's beyond our control.

But there should be no "sides."

If a hunt is booked for 2020, and it can't or shouldn't happen, then the deposit absolutely needs to be returned. Period.

If the two parties can agree to move the hunt to a subsequent date, then that's 100% great for everyone. I'm all for it.

If you're in an economic position to be charitable and waive a return of a deposit, that's awesome too.

Otherwise, it's stealing. The awfulness of the situation doesn't make it better - it's an attempt at justifying something you otherwise wouldn't do.

Everyone has expenses. Everyone has mouths to feed. Most everyone is taking an economic beating.

You can still do the right thing.

“Non refundable “

Means just that.

Don’t sign the agreement and pay the non refundable if you are going to ask for it back.

Under any circumstances!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
“Non refundable “

Means just that.

Don’t sign the agreement and pay the non refundable if you are going to ask for it back.

Under any circumstances!

So, that's just not accurate at all.

The agreement still contemplates a service or a thing. If the service or the thing isn't provided, then all funds should be returned/refunded.

For example, if an airline flight is canceled, passengers are entitled to a refund even with a non-refundable ticket.

It's just not that hard.

Anything that is put forth to me as non-refundable is treated as such, that money is gone forever in my mind.
There have been times where I wasn’t comfortable with the non-refundable stipulation and backed away from a deal.
Granted, not to Africa, but I have non-refundable deposits paid on 3 hunts at the moment, one of which is overseas. If things prevent me from going, I don’t anticipate any of that money back.
If an operator is in a position to refund something, that certainly buys loyalty and a desire to do business with them from me. Conversely though, if they can’t/don’t refund such monies, I don’t view that as a black mark, I made the deal and signed the contract.

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:
Anything that is put forth to me as non-refundable is treated as such, that money is gone forever in my mind.
There have been times where I wasn’t comfortable with the non-refundable stipulation and backed away from a deal.
Granted, not to Africa, but I have non-refundable deposits paid on 3 hunts at the moment, one of which is overseas. If things prevent me from going, I don’t anticipate any of that money back.
If an operator is in a position to refund something, that certainly buys loyalty and a desire to do business with them from me. Conversely though, if they can’t/don’t refund such monies, I don’t view that as a black mark, I made the deal and signed the contract.

Exactly!

Crying for your money back after you have signed it away is nothing but pure bullshit!

If you don’t like the deal, don’t take it.

Once you sign it, it all yours.

But that's not the deal.

Again, you are paying for a service or a thing. If that service or thing isn't provided, then there's no deal. Everybody goes back to zero.

I agree that if you were simply to cancel b/c you changed your mind or you couldn't perform, then that's a different circumstance. That's not what's happening with COVID-19.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
But that's not the deal.

Again, you are paying for a service or a thing. If that service or thing isn't provided, then there's no deal. Everybody goes back to zero.

I agree that if you were simply to cancel b/c you changed your mind or you couldn't perform, then that's a different circumstance. That's not what's happening with COVID-19.

It’s apparent that non-refundable means different things to you and I. Respectfully, we will agree to disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
But that's not the deal.

Again, you are paying for a service or a thing. If that service or thing isn't provided, then there's no deal. Everybody goes back to zero.

I agree that if you were simply to cancel b/c you changed your mind or you couldn't perform, then that's a different circumstance. That's not what's happening with COVID-19.

It’s apparent that non-refundable means different things to you and I. Respectfully, we will agree to disagree.

Perhaps, but I really think it’s the result that we disagree on.

In this fortuitous circumstance, the underlying object/performance of an agreement ceases to be possible or to exist. So, the agreement is dissolved.

Looking at it from your perspective, the deposit in reality becomes a donation. That’s not a deposit at all! Because if it was a deposit, by any definition, it must be returned when performance of the agreement becomes impossible/ceases to exist.

Let’s see folks ask for donations in their agreements and how many folks they get to sign up. If this were the case, I would 100% agree with your interpretation.

Definition of Non-refundable: Not subject to refunding or being refunded.

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:
Definition of Non-refundable: Not subject to refunding or being refunded.

And again, you offer an adjective without the context of the situation and forget the “deposit” part.

In layman’s terms, the deposit (even with non-refundable in front of it) isn’t earned until you actually do what you’re being paid to do or tender the service/object to the person entitled to the service. That’s not being done here. So, in actuality, it’s not technically being refunded - it’s being returned as the agreement was dissolved and the deposit was never earned. Hence, we’re disagreeing about the result, not the definition.


It’s your money, donate it if you want!

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:
Definition of Non-refundable: Not subject to refunding or being refunded.

And again, you offer an adjective without the context of the situation and forget the “deposit” part.

In layman’s terms, the deposit (even with non-refundable in front of it) isn’t earned until you actually do what you’re being paid to do or tender the service/object to the person entitled to the service. That’s not being done here. So, in actuality, it’s not technically being refunded - it’s being returned as the agreement was dissolved and the deposit was never earned. Hence, we’re disagreeing about the result, not the definition.


It’s your money, donate it if you want!

With this sort of attitude, I hope to never do business with anyone like you.

It does not even have to be a written agreement, if we verbally agreed on a non refundable deposit, and I paid it, I will never ask for it back.

I really have no idea what sort of business you are in, but here practically everything we do is based on the shake of hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:
Definition of Non-refundable: Not subject to refunding or being refunded.

And again, you offer an adjective without the context of the situation and forget the “deposit” part.

In layman’s terms, the deposit (even with non-refundable in front of it) isn’t earned until you actually do what you’re being paid to do or tender the service/object to the person entitled to the service. That’s not being done here. So, in actuality, it’s not technically being refunded - it’s being returned as the agreement was dissolved and the deposit was never earned. Hence, we’re disagreeing about the result, not the definition.


It’s your money, donate it if you want!

With this sort of attitude, I hope to never do business with anyone like you.

It does not even have to be a written agreement, if we verbally agreed on a non refundable deposit, and I paid it, I will never ask for it back.

I really have no idea what sort of business you are in, but here practically everything we do is based on the shake of hands.

Being dogmatic doesn't make you right, Mr. Saeed. You don't know me from Adam and yet you made a snap determination of what I must be like via a couple of internet posts. That's comedic, but whatever.

And it's not my attitude. It's the difference between opinion and reality. You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it so. The internet and social media are great in many ways - they are also dangerous when popular opinion is stated as absolute fact.

I've read enough of your posts over the years to believe you to be a well-informed gentleman. So, I guess you simply are intentionally misunderstanding my posts. Did I state anything about a written contract or a handshake? Your understanding of a non-refundable deposit isn't universal (and frankly, it doesn't make sense).

For example, if you put a non-refundable deposit down on a one of a kind Rolex, and then the salesman can't provide that Rolex, should your deposit be returned? Of course! "Non-refundable" just meant that you couldn't change your mind on the order or return the watch b/c you didn't like it. BUT THE SALESMAN ALWAYS HAD TO PROVIDE THE ROLEX.

You can and should do whatever you want with your money. But respectfully, other than a passing interest, I don't care what your opinion is (I'm sure others feel the same about my thoughts). I offered a contemplative analysis that is contrary to your and Zebrazapper's opinions on the subject. People can take it or leave it, but at least folks can consider a different perspective.

This fool may not have all that much money, but I do try not to be easily separated from it.

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:
Definition of Non-refundable: Not subject to refunding or being refunded.

And again, you offer an adjective without the context of the situation and forget the “deposit” part.

In layman’s terms, the deposit (even with non-refundable in front of it) isn’t earned until you actually do what you’re being paid to do or tender the service/object to the person entitled to the service. That’s not being done here. So, in actuality, it’s not technically being refunded - it’s being returned as the agreement was dissolved and the deposit was never earned. Hence, we’re disagreeing about the result, not the definition.


It’s your money, donate it if you want!

With this sort of attitude, I hope to never do business with anyone like you.

It does not even have to be a written agreement, if we verbally agreed on a non refundable deposit, and I paid it, I will never ask for it back.

I really have no idea what sort of business you are in, but here practically everything we do is based on the shake of hands.

Being dogmatic doesn't make you right, Mr. Saeed. You don't know me from Adam and yet you made a snap determination of what I must be like via a couple of internet posts. That's comedic, but whatever.

And it's not my attitude. It's the difference between opinion and reality. You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it so. The internet and social media are great in many ways - they are also dangerous when popular opinion is stated as absolute fact.

I've read enough of your posts over the years to believe you to be a well-informed gentleman. So, I guess you simply are intentionally misunderstanding my posts. Did I state anything about a written contract or a handshake? Your understanding of a non-refundable deposit isn't universal (and frankly, it doesn't make sense). For example, if you put a non-refundable deposit down on a one of a kind Rolex, and then the salesman can't provide that Rolex, should your deposit be returned? Of course! "Non-refundable" just meant that you couldn't change your mind on the order or return the watch b/c you didn't like it. BUT THE SALESMAN ALWAYS HAD TO PROVIDE THE ROLEX.

You can and should do whatever you want with your money. But respectfully, other than a passing interest, I don't care what your opinion is (I'm sure others feel the same about my thoughts). I offered a contemplative analysis that is contrary to your and Zebrazapper's opinions on the subject. People can take it or leave it, but at least folks can consider a different perspective.

This fool may not have all that much money, but I do try not to be easily separated from it.

Thanks.

I stand but what I said.

We do have people here I would never do business with.

Precisely because of their attitude towards dealings.

The operative word here is that you have agreed on a NON REFUNDABLE deposit.

Asking for it back is totally unreasonable, and unacceptable!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:
Definition of Non-refundable: Not subject to refunding or being refunded.

And again, you offer an adjective without the context of the situation and forget the “deposit” part.

In layman’s terms, the deposit (even with non-refundable in front of it) isn’t earned until you actually do what you’re being paid to do or tender the service/object to the person entitled to the service. That’s not being done here. So, in actuality, it’s not technically being refunded - it’s being returned as the agreement was dissolved and the deposit was never earned. Hence, we’re disagreeing about the result, not the definition.


It’s your money, donate it if you want!

With this sort of attitude, I hope to never do business with anyone like you.

It does not even have to be a written agreement, if we verbally agreed on a non refundable deposit, and I paid it, I will never ask for it back.

I really have no idea what sort of business you are in, but here practically everything we do is based on the shake of hands.

Being dogmatic doesn't make you right, Mr. Saeed. You don't know me from Adam and yet you made a snap determination of what I must be like via a couple of internet posts. That's comedic, but whatever.

And it's not my attitude. It's the difference between opinion and reality. You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it so. The internet and social media are great in many ways - they are also dangerous when popular opinion is stated as absolute fact.

I've read enough of your posts over the years to believe you to be a well-informed gentleman. So, I guess you simply are intentionally misunderstanding my posts. Did I state anything about a written contract or a handshake? Your understanding of a non-refundable deposit isn't universal (and frankly, it doesn't make sense). For example, if you put a non-refundable deposit down on a one of a kind Rolex, and then the salesman can't provide that Rolex, should your deposit be returned? Of course! "Non-refundable" just meant that you couldn't change your mind on the order or return the watch b/c you didn't like it. BUT THE SALESMAN ALWAYS HAD TO PROVIDE THE ROLEX.

You can and should do whatever you want with your money. But respectfully, other than a passing interest, I don't care what your opinion is (I'm sure others feel the same about my thoughts). I offered a contemplative analysis that is contrary to your and Zebrazapper's opinions on the subject. People can take it or leave it, but at least folks can consider a different perspective.

This fool may not have all that much money, but I do try not to be easily separated from it.

Thanks.

I stand but what I said.

We do have people here I would never do business with.

Precisely because of their attitude towards dealings.

The operative word here is that you have agreed on a NON REFUNDABLE deposit.

Asking for it back is totally unreasonable, and unacceptable!

Well, I've bought and sold thousands and thousands of dollars worth of goods and hunts here. I'm betting contrary to the suggestion that I'm somehow untrustworthy, you won't find one negative comment about how I've done business. Funny how reality is different from a snap opinion?

Hey, just for giggles, what about my hypothetical?
If you put a non-refundable deposit down on a one of a kind Rolex, and then the salesman can't provide that Rolex, should your deposit be returned?

Doesn't the salesman have to actually provide the Rolex for the deposit to be non-refundable?

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
This is an awful situation. And, it's beyond our control.

But there should be no "sides."

If a hunt is booked for 2020, and it can't or shouldn't happen, then the deposit absolutely needs to be returned. Period.

If the two parties can agree to move the hunt to a subsequent date, then that's 100% great for everyone. I'm all for it.

If you're in an economic position to be charitable and waive a return of a deposit, that's awesome too.

Otherwise, it's stealing. The awfulness of the situation doesn't make it better - it's an attempt at justifying something you otherwise wouldn't do.

Everyone has expenses. Everyone has mouths to feed. Most everyone is taking an economic beating.

You can still do the right thing.

Normally the nonrefundable clause is stipulated to cover us of a cancellation within 90 days of the safari and if the safari cannot be resold or transferred. Otherwise, we would be out of business.

This year I have asked for a small nonrefundable deposit to book the safari for a later date or next year. This sum will be deducted from the safari cost. The client is not obliged to pay this but all have done.

Now imagine if I had previously asked for the full payment of the daily rates and under my contract clauses and told my clients that I am obliged to keep that money as it is they who cancelled? I cannot do that as that is considered unfair.

A safari hunt is a safari hunt.

It's NOT a Rolex, a kitchen sink or a hair dryer.
If yiou want those items then go to Cosco and do your business.
If you wanht a safari hunt you go to a safari outfitter or a booking agent and book your hunt accorded to THEIR BOOKING CONDITIONS.
If you don't agree with their specific booking conditions it is your prerogative as a client to go elsewhere.

When you agree and book with an outfitter or agent and sign on to THEIR booking conditions you are bound by THEIR booking conditions.

Safari outfitters are selling HUNTS not watermelons.

When you get to the checkout and change your mind on the watermelon the shop still has the option of selling that watermelon to someone else.
When you book someones time in advance, i.e a safari outfitter, he obligates his time, his staff's time the time of the camp, food stores, fuel and other expenses IN ADVANCE IN ANTICIPATION OF THE GOOD WILL OF YOUR BOOKING HENCE THE DEPOSIT.

You expect your outfitter to be able to re-sell your timeslot, in order to maintain continuous employment timing for camp staff and the efficient usage and consumption of stores so that you can justify the return of your decrepit deposit.

In years past I returned deposits to people like you and when they returned the following year or year after when it suited them I told them to fuck off and go hunt elsewhere.

Good luck to you and your kind.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
This is an awful situation. And, it's beyond our control.

But there should be no "sides."

If a hunt is booked for 2020, and it can't or shouldn't happen, then the deposit absolutely needs to be returned. Period.

If the two parties can agree to move the hunt to a subsequent date, then that's 100% great for everyone. I'm all for it.

If you're in an economic position to be charitable and waive a return of a deposit, that's awesome too.

Otherwise, it's stealing. The awfulness of the situation doesn't make it better - it's an attempt at justifying something you otherwise wouldn't do.

Everyone has expenses. Everyone has mouths to feed. Most everyone is taking an economic beating.

You can still do the right thing.

Normally the nonrefundable clause is stipulated to cover us of a cancellation within 90 days of the safari and if the safari cannot be resold or transferred. Otherwise, we would be out of business.

This year I have asked for a small nonrefundable deposit to book the safari for a later date or next year. This sum will be deducted from the safari cost. The client is not obliged to pay this but all have done.

Now imagine if I had previously asked for the full payment of the daily rates and under my contract clauses and told my clients that I am obliged to keep that money as it is they who cancelled? I cannot do that as that is considered unfair.

Andrew:

My comments were not directed at you at all. And I believe your use of a non-refundable deposit related to when someone cancels on you within 90 days of the safari is exactly in line with the intent of a non-refundable deposit.

The scenario I am addressing is the very unusual circumstance of a pandemic such as COVID-19. In this situation, hunters are not canceling hunts, the hunts become an impossibility as planned. My point was that some folks’ definition of “non refundable deposit” wasn’t entirely accurate and doesn’t apply once the object/service of the agreement becomes impossible as planned.

I think it’s awesome for folks to get together to agree on a plan that works for both. Sounds like that’s exactly what you’re doing. My point is no one should simply assume that are entitled to keep a non refundable deposit in this particular circumstance (COVID-19). Thanks.

Paul:

No one can help if you refuse to try to understand what your own booking conditions actually mean.

Being bombastic and relaying personal anecdotes from a wholly biased point of view doesn’t mean much of anything.

Facts change, underlying concepts rarely do. Thanks and have a good day.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
A safari hunt is a safari hunt.

It's NOT a Rolex, a kitchen sink or a hair dryer.
If yiou want those items then go to Cosco and do your business.
If you wanht a safari hunt you go to a safari outfitter or a booking agent and book your hunt accorded to THEIR BOOKING CONDITIONS.
If you don't agree with their specific booking conditions it is your prerogative as a client to go elsewhere.

When you agree and book with an outfitter or agent and sign on to THEIR booking conditions you are bound by THEIR booking conditions.

Safari outfitters are selling HUNTS not watermelons.

When you get to the checkout and change your mind on the watermelon the shop still has the option of selling that watermelon to someone else.
When you book someones time in advance, i.e a safari outfitter, he obligates his time, his staff's time the time of the camp, food stores, fuel and other expenses IN ADVANCE IN ANTICIPATION OF THE GOOD WILL OF YOUR BOOKING HENCE THE DEPOSIT.

You expect your outfitter to be able to re-sell your timeslot, in order to maintain continuous employment timing for camp staff and the efficient usage and consumption of stores so that you can justify the return of your decrepit deposit.

In years past I returned deposits to people like you and when they returned the following year or year after when it suited them I told them to fuck off and go hunt elsewhere.

Good luck to you and your kind.

Paul, I don't think you are considering Tygersman's scenario correctly. You are considering it from experience of hunters cancelling in the past for personal reasons, whether that be due to health, finances, or just a change of mind. In that scenario, the hunter wasn't prevented from arriving due to conditions beyond his control, as travel conditions were normal. He simply backed out as you say, "at the check out counter". In that case, the deposit should be non-refundable.

In Tygersman's example, the hunter simply can't get there due to conditions neither you nor he control. Flights canceled or the border shut down by the government. I fully understand the "non-refundable" concept but I do believe there are exceptions. The current times we find ourselves in are certainly outside the norm.

Here is an example. Similar to your description of a "safari hunt", being an "event" that requires preparation, time, and money to promote and prepare for, let's consider a concert. Several months ago, I purchased tickets for two upcoming concerts. One scheduled for May 7th, the other for June 6th. I just received notice over the past few days that one has been canceled while the other has been postponed. For both events, the tickets are "non-refundable". However, for the canceled concert, the ticket money has already been refunded to me. Not because I asked for it, but because the event cannot go forward due to current governmental restrictions on public gatherings. Not the fault of the performer, promoter, or participant. For the postponed concert, I've been assured my ticket will be honored once the event is rescheduled and if it is eventually cancelled, the ticket purchase will be refunded.

For both events, I'm ready and capable of attending, but due to the government banning gathering of crowds larger than 100 people, and in the city where the events are taking place, larger than 10 people, no one is at fault for the event not happening. My opinion is that would constitute an exception to the Non-refundable nature of the deposit. Evidently the ticket brokers from whom I purchased the tickets agree as they sent out unsolicited emails to purchasers notifying of the developments I describe here. And by the way, I purchased those tickets from two different ticket brokers so it's not just the case of one company being generous. It's the way both view the situation regarding the Non-Refundable policy under these abnormal conditions.

Every business has responsibilities and no business gets to keep a deposit if the service cannot be given.It doesn't matter what or how big the business is.Stop treating clients like stupid idiots who did not work for their money.Are you a mobster owned safari company?

I actually see both sides of this.

The operator has costs that were incurred as soon as you agree to the hunt.

If he spent money on getting the concession, paying anti poaching, and time scheduling you in, he has delivered some of his service already, even if you never get there.

Similarly, regardless of it being called no refundable or not, if you cannot deliver a service promised, your agreement is fraudulent.

As I’ve said before, the written contracts are purely to protect the business entity. Some of my contracts were not enforced entirely- issues happened and we mutually agreed to something else.

I found how “helpful” the contracts are at times as well...

Remember the shellacking Bushwhack got here (rightly)? Yet that was him taking the nonrefundable view as written in the contract...

Personally, I regard the unilateral nature of these contracts as being wrong- and most of my recent hunts have been based on verbal agreement; but good luck being a new client and writing something new in there (like non-performance penalties...)

In my hunt contracts I have "non refundable" if that's what a particular outfitters terms are. If the outfitter is unable to provide the service then yes he is obliged to pay back the deposit to my mind. BUT here is the small catch, its called COVID 19!!

The whole world has gone upside down and if you have not yet realized it you better wake up!

1. Had you even insured your hunt, i doubt very much it would be covered for this scenario.
2. To compare even the biggest safari outfitter, whose revenue is probably a few million (let alone 99% of them that are husband and wife or one man bands, who make enough money annually to just get by) to large airlines refunding your ticket money is STUPID & IGNORANT. Switch on your TV and see how many billions of $$ airlines are asking and praying to get from governments to stay afloat once this crap is done with. How many millions of $$$ is the government in African countries or even right here going to give to bail out hunting operators!!

Many many hunting operations are going to be gone if this drama carries on, along with perhaps your own job or business, so everyone take a deep breath and calm down.

This aint over yet!!!!

Arjun Reddy
Hunters Networks

Paul, I don't think you are considering Tygersman's scenario correctly. You are considering it from experience of hunters cancelling in the past for personal reasons, whether that be due to health, finances, or just a change of mind. In that scenario, the hunter wasn't prevented from arriving due to conditions beyond his control, as travel conditions were normal. He simply backed out as you say, "at the check out counter". In that case, the deposit should be non-refundable.

In Tygersman's example, the hunter simply can't get there due to conditions neither you nor he control. Flights canceled or the border shut down by the government. I fully understand the "non-refundable" concept but I do believe there are exceptions. The current times we find ourselves in are certainly outside the norm.

Here is an example. Similar to your description of a "safari hunt", being an "event" that requires preparation, time, and money to promote and prepare for, let's consider a concert. Several months ago, I purchased tickets for two upcoming concerts. One scheduled for May 7th, the other for June 6th. I just received notice over the past few days that one has been canceled while the other has been postponed. For both events, the tickets are "non-refundable". However, for the canceled concert, the ticket money has already been refunded to me. Not because I asked for it, but because the event cannot go forward due to current governmental restrictions on public gatherings. Not the fault of the performer, promoter, or participant. For the postponed concert, I've been assured my ticket will be honored once the event is rescheduled and if it is eventually cancelled, the ticket purchase will be refunded.

For both events, I'm ready and capable of attending, but due to the government banning gathering of crowds larger than 100 people, and in the city where the events are taking place, larger than 10 people, no one is at fault for the event not happening. My opinion is that would constitute an exception to the Non-refundable nature of the deposit. Evidently the ticket brokers from whom I purchased the tickets agree as they sent out unsolicited emails to purchasers notifying of the developments I describe here. And by the way, I purchased those tickets from two different ticket brokers so it's not just the case of one company being generous. It's the way both view the situation regarding the Non-Refundable policy under these abnormal conditions.

Todd, thank-you for an objective and reasonable reply, none of which I disagree with nor miss-understand.

The point that I was trying to get across was that comparing the Safari provision industry with others is a mistake and it is a mistake that I believe operators AND consumers will pay a big price for.

Don't take my word for it.
Ask people like Mark Young, Tim Herald and Arjun Reddy, for example, what their view is on the effect of mass exodus of deposits will have on the financial viability of a lot of their operators will have.

I know from personal experience that Australian operators who have hunting concessions on Aboriginal lands are obligated by their copntracts to provide up front payments for a large percentage of quota of animals, land use fees, camp rental fees etc etc.
These fees are usually covered by deposits gained at the various conventions as hunts are booked.
At this stage of the year those fees will have already been transferred.
I will be extremely surprised if the relevant authorities that those up-front payments are given to are actually in a position to refund them to the operators, as most/all of those fees are used to pay for health, education and other services for Indigenous peoples.

How many Safari operators are wealthy enough to bridge those costs AND WEAR a total year without income.
How many operators will liquidate as a result.
How many operators will be around the following year offering the same services and what will be their prices.
How many operators in the many African countries that are obligated to pay for quota in advance will get that quota refunded by those various Governments ?
How many of those operators will survive the impact of those quotas are not refunded by the Governments.
What will be the prices offered by the operators remaining the following year.

All i'm asking, and basically pleading with you all, is that you consider being reasonable for just one year.
Come to an agreement to TRANSFER your deposits through to next year and help take the sting out for operators who will otherwise more than likely not be around next year.

Quote; Alfredo C
"I don't understand what the big deal with deposits is....if you paid a deposit it means that you want to go so just work with your PH and scheduled an alternate date.

I paid my entire day rate for a mid-April hunt to a PH in Zimbabwe...he know that it is no one's fault for what's going on so we set a tentative alternative date for June. If it's still not over then we will push it back again.

He has my money and wants to give me my hunt....I don't want my money back....I want to go hunting!

Where is there a problem here?"

This.

I use fair and common sense to resolve this issue, therefore if such a case arises and the hunt cannot go on on the date scheduled,another date has to be set and if the outfitter does not want to change the date they should just refund the client their money.What's so hard to understand? If the client feels the outfitter should keep his deposit,I feel it is because they are probably stupid and have not worked for that money.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
Quote; Alfredo C
"I don't understand what the big deal with deposits is....if you paid a deposit it means that you want to go so just work with your PH and scheduled an alternate date.

I paid my entire day rate for a mid-April hunt to a PH in Zimbabwe...he know that it is no one's fault for what's going on so we set a tentative alternative date for June. If it's still not over then we will push it back again.

He has my money and wants to give me my hunt....I don't want my money back....I want to go hunting!

Where is there a problem here?"

This.

No problem here because both you and your PH understand what is going on, and wish to help each other.

This is great, and as it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
Quote; Alfredo C
"I don't understand what the big deal with deposits is....if you paid a deposit it means that you want to go so just work with your PH and scheduled an alternate date.

I paid my entire day rate for a mid-April hunt to a PH in Zimbabwe...he know that it is no one's fault for what's going on so we set a tentative alternative date for June. If it's still not over then we will push it back again.

He has my money and wants to give me my hunt....I don't want my money back....I want to go hunting!

Where is there a problem here?"

This.

No problem here because both you and your PH understand what is going on, and wish to help each other.

This is great, and as it should be.

Yes Saeed, I wouldn't have it any other way. It is a situation beyond either of our control so an alternative must be found, and my PH couldn't have been any nicer in working it out.

Again I don't want my money back, I want to go!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I use fair and common sense to resolve this issue, therefore if such a case arises and the hunt cannot go on on the date scheduled,another date has to be set and if the outfitter does not want to change the date they should just refund the client their money.What's so hard to understand? If the client feels the outfitter should keep his deposit,I feel it is because they are probably stupid and have not worked for that money.

I agree with you that if the outfitter DID NOT want to make an alternative date then the money should be returned.

That said, if an outfitter conducted business like that then I don't think that he would be in business very long

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:


All i'm asking, and basically pleading with you all, is that you consider being reasonable for just one year.
Come to an agreement to TRANSFER your deposits through to next year and help take the sting out for operators who will otherwise more than likely not be around next year.

Paul, I agree with you 100% on this. Everyone needs to realize this is a very unique circumstance with the current world lockdown due to the virus. No one is at fault. In times like these, those who can approach the issue with cool heads will do best. If you're booked for this year, especially in the next couple of months, speak with your outfitter and work something out. Pain is going to be experienced on all sides ... clients, outfitters, PH, staff, travel industry folks ... everyone, right down to the taxidermists.

It appears to me the easiest course is to postpone and reschedule. I'm not saying that approach works for everyone and doesn't have its own problems (this year's quota, for example), but hopefully ALL parties, including governments (who by the way imposed the travel bans, even African governments) should step up and adjust quota payment schedules by allowing the outfitters to increase quotas next year equal to what is lost this hunting season. Of course, there may simply be a shortage of equipment, time, and staff to conduct twice as many hunts next year but again, sacrifices will have to be made all around. This year's hunters may have to go at a less desirable time of year next, or even much later this year, pushing into the hot months.

If postponement doesn't work, maybe 1/2 the refund gets returned? I don't know. Just trying to explore avenues where the pain of the current world situation is shared since neither the client or outfitter is to blame for the hunt not going on at the prescribed time.

In short, try to find a way to work it out so that no one suffers 100% of the pain. We all want the outfitters to be there for the long run. My only reason for commenting on the "non-refundable" issue was to point out that these are not normal times. As such, exceptions to the "non-refundable' nature of deposits should be considered.

I think we all need to be realistic. There isn’t much any of us can do about this . I think that we, as clients, have to realize that some of these companies may no longer be in business after this debacle. Being jerks about this may just hasten their demise.

Can any of you imagine going through the year with NO revenues? Unless something drastic happens, that is exactly what is going to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think we all need to be realistic. There isn’t much any of us can do about this . I think that we, as clients, have to realize that some of these companies may no longer be in business after this debacle. Being jerks about this may just hasten their demise.

Can any of you imagine going through the year with NO revenues? Unless something drastic happens, that is exactly what is going to happen.

+1

There wont be a lot of hunting operators as 2020 season is pretty much done. Even if travel opens up few will be in a hurry to get on long haul flights into third world countries.

Everything in Orlando has shut down. I bet it is the same in Vegas, myrtle beach ect

Covid will have a long term impact on travel and tourism. Just like 15 years after sars you still saw people in hk walking with mask in public. Covid will have a impact on consumer behavior for long time.

Todd Williams - when I said hunting and luxury will be a distant luxury you thought it was joke. You still think covid is a joke ? Someone sure forgot to tell the stocks of every restaurant, airline, energy, retail (other than Amazon,Walmart, Costco), mlp, high yield, leverage loans that are in the dumps.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think we all need to be realistic. There isn’t much any of us can do about this . I think that we, as clients, have to realize that some of these companies may no longer be in business after this debacle. Being jerks about this may just hasten their demise.

Exactly!!

An interesting example of support in need is the CrossFit community. I have friends in multiple different boxes (gyms). All those boxes have been shuttered by government mandate.

To a person, all my CrossFit friends are continuing to pay their monthly dues requesting their accounts not be put on hold. The reality is most of these boxes operate on a very thin margin and would likely disappear within 2 months without the revenue stream.

Prime example of the fitness community coming together.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think we all need to be realistic. There isn’t much any of us can do about this . I think that we, as clients, have to realize that some of these companies may no longer be in business after this debacle. Being jerks about this may just hasten their demise.

Can any of you imagine going through the year with NO revenues? Unless something drastic happens, that is exactly what is going to happen.

+1

There wont be a lot of hunting operators as 2020 season is pretty much done. Even if travel opens up few will be in a hurry to get on long haul flights into third world countries.

Everything in Orlando has shut down. I bet it is the same in Vegas, myrtle beach ect

Covid will have a long term impact on travel and tourism. Just like 15 years after sars you still saw people in hk walking with mask in public. Covid will have a impact on consumer behavior for long time.

Todd Williams - when I said hunting and luxury will be a distant luxury you thought it was joke. You still think covid is a joke ? Someone sure forgot to tell the stocks of every restaurant, airline, energy, retail (other than Amazon,Walmart, Costco), mlp, high yield, leverage loans that are in the dumps.

Mike

OK Mike if you are going to single me out, fine. No, I never said the virus is a joke. My comment was more along the lines that your brand of panic is one of the things that we can do without. Let's be honest. You are a financial markets expert. And we all know for those who know how to navigate those waters, a lot of money can be made by volatility in the markets. Guys like you should have been advising a calm approach instead of playing into the panic of convincing people "all is lost, all is lost". Here's an interesting comment: "Every decade or so, dark clouds will fill the economic skies, and they will briefly rain gold. When downpours of that sort occur, it’s imperative that we rush outdoors carrying washtubs, not teaspoons” — Warren Buffett!! What he's obviously referring to is the rebound once things turn around ... based on his past experiences.

As a former professional pilot, we trained to handle emergencies calmly. Realize that any emergency usually sets off a chain of events that cause further degradations. Panic quickly results in catastrophe. One the the worst things that can happen in flight is a fire. Let's take an engine fire for example. First, you put out the fire, then assess the situation. This results in shutting down the engine, assuming you can get the fire extinguished. This results in single generator and single hydraulic system operations, among other things. You download the electrical load to what the one generator can handle, etc. System knowledge by the experts in the cockpit allow the flight to land without further incident. You discontinue the flight and land at the nearest suitable field. In short, use your experience to calmly handle the situation and limit additional degradation.

Once we get the immediate situation under control, we make an announcement such as "Ladies and Gentlemen, we've obviously experienced a problem with the aircraft. Rest assured, we are in control of the situation. We will be landing at XYZ airport to ensure everyones' continued safety. Please follow the cabin crew's instructions".

What we don't do is announce "Folks, we just had a fucking fire. Holy shit people. It's out for now, but it might start up again. We can't guarantee the other engine wont catch on fire, quit, or just fall off the fucking plane. If it does, we're all screwed. So just hang the fuck on and we'll see where this thing lands".

I stand by what I said then. Safari isn't a "remote luxury". It's not all over. You might not be able to go in the next few months, but it's not all over. We are just in an unprecedented period at the moment that is going to require some sacrifice. The obvious sacrifice is to postpone and go later once things settle down. The virus will be under control. The economy will recover. Once that occurs, things will get back to normal. Evidenced by the struggles we've gone through and survived in the past. There is no need for the hyperbolic "the end is near" rhetoric.

I don't think you're the type of person I would want to face an emergency of any type with Mike. Sorry, but you're just not.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think we all need to be realistic. There isn’t much any of us can do about this . I think that we, as clients, have to realize that some of these companies may no longer be in business after this debacle. Being jerks about this may just hasten their demise.

Exactly!!

An interesting example of support in need is the CrossFit community. I have friends in multiple different boxes (gyms). All those boxes have been shuttered by government mandate.

To a person, all my CrossFit friends are continuing to pay their monthly dues requesting their accounts not be put on hold. The reality is most of these boxes operate on a very thin margin and would likely disappear within 2 months without the revenue stream.

Prime example of the fitness community coming together.

Great example Jim. I took up guitar lessons 5 years ago. Still take them very week on Friday evenings. Yesterday, my teacher called to say he thought it best to cancel until this thing is under control. I told him I would Venmo the money for the lesson to him anyway and we'll catch up some Saturday down the road. I realize this is how he makes his income and if everyone pulls the plug, he'll go under.

So for now, we make a few sacrifices. Do what we can to support those who provide services to us and they'll be there to repay the good intentions further down the line.

Todd , your paragraph description of panic with the fire made me laugh out loud. Lots of that going right now. Stay home, play card games and when we can get out then take half of that rainy day cash and invest, the rest is go back to work, rebuild one step at a time then go hunt. Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think we all need to be realistic. There isn’t much any of us can do about this . I think that we, as clients, have to realize that some of these companies may no longer be in business after this debacle. Being jerks about this may just hasten their demise.

Can any of you imagine going through the year with NO revenues? Unless something drastic happens, that is exactly what is going to happen.

+1

There wont be a lot of hunting operators as 2020 season is pretty much done. Even if travel opens up few will be in a hurry to get on long haul flights into third world countries.

Everything in Orlando has shut down. I bet it is the same in Vegas, myrtle beach ect

Covid will have a long term impact on travel and tourism. Just like 15 years after sars you still saw people in hk walking with mask in public. Covid will have a impact on consumer behavior for long time.

Todd Williams - when I said hunting and luxury will be a distant luxury you thought it was joke. You still think covid is a joke ? Someone sure forgot to tell the stocks of every restaurant, airline, energy, retail (other than Amazon,Walmart, Costco), mlp, high yield, leverage loans that are in the dumps.

Mike

OK Mike if you are going to single me out, fine. No, I never said the virus is a joke. My comment was more along the lines that your brand of panic is one of the things that we can do without. Let's be honest. You are a financial markets expert. And we all know for those who know how to navigate those waters, a lot of money can be made by volatility in the markets. Guys like you should have been advising a calm approach instead of playing into the panic of convincing people "all is lost, all is lost". Here's an interesting comment: "Every decade or so, dark clouds will fill the economic skies, and they will briefly rain gold. When downpours of that sort occur, it’s imperative that we rush outdoors carrying washtubs, not teaspoons” — Warren Buffett!! What he's obviously referring to is the rebound once things turn around ... based on his past experiences.

As a former professional pilot, we trained to handle emergencies calmly. Realize that any emergency usually sets off a chain of events that cause further degradations. Panic quickly results in catastrophe. One the the worst things that can happen in flight is a fire. Let's take an engine fire for example. First, you put out the fire, then assess the situation. This results in shutting down the engine, assuming you can get the fire extinguished. This results in single generator and single hydraulic system operations, among other things. You download the electrical load to what the one generator can handle, etc. System knowledge by the experts in the cockpit allow the flight to land without further incident. You discontinue the flight and land at the nearest suitable field. In short, use your experience to calmly handle the situation and limit additional degradation.

Once we get the immediate situation under control, we make an announcement such as "Ladies and Gentlemen, we've obviously experienced a problem with the aircraft. Rest assured, we are in control of the situation. We will be landing at XYZ airport to ensure everyones' continued safety. Please follow the cabin crew's instructions".

What we don't do is announce "Folks, we just had a fucking fire. Holy shit people. It's out for now, but it might start up again. We can't guarantee the other engine wont catch on fire, quit, or just fall off the fucking plane. If it does, we're all screwed. So just hang the fuck on and we'll see where this thing lands".

I stand by what I said then. Safari isn't a "remote luxury". It's not all over. You might not be able to go in the next few months, but it's not all over. We are just in an unprecedented period at the moment that is going to require some sacrifice. The obvious sacrifice is to postpone and go later once things settle down. The virus will be under control. The economy will recover. Once that occurs, things will get back to normal. Evidenced by the struggles we've gone through and survived in the past. There is no need for the hyperbolic "the end is near" rhetoric.

I don't think you're the type of person I would want to face an emergency of any type with Mike. Sorry, but you're just not.

Todd you sound more like a Texas oil guy than a pilot

Unless you have designed a structure with permanent capital like Buffett with insurance float it tough to go out there with your washtub.

Margin more junk stocks to raise capital.

It’s a lot easier for a Buffett sitting in oxy preferreds he has structured to bring out his bathtub. Every equity holder is sitting in a stock down 70 percent. Trying margining that for additional firepower.

If everybody had massive cash holdings - there would be no financial crisis. Crisis are normally driven by liquidity crisis.

When business have zero revenue - they have liquidity crisis unless they are holding a a lot of cash.

Try running anti poaching, camp ect when no one shows up in African hunting context.

Same as running a hotel or restaurant in Orlando right now - no one is showing up.

Or any North American Independent oil and gas business when oil is a $22.

Only financial advisors can quote Buffett when they are paid a fee as percentage of aum.

Any body managing money which charges an incentive fee can’t be in a spot of quoting Buffett on washtubs. Their investors and capital follow a more important buffet quote

First rule of money management - don’t lose money
Second rule - don’t forget rule 1

Sure people make a lot of money in panics but it assumes you don’t keep lugging positions and have liquidity. you can’t be enjoying the upside of the equity markets and suddenly when there is a crash you assume all positions were sold at the top and there is liquidity.

Everything is correlated to one right now - equities bonds gold bitcoin high yield - what happens in crashes.

Most business are not designed for zero revenues overnight situations. Dal went from 12 to 2 bil expected in 2q 2020. Africa hunting is in the same situation. Eventually things come back - but one needs either capital or government subsidy to make it to the other side. Operators better have ability to take down costs and live lean - fixed costs kill in this world.

Mike