Mark, with all due respect, you are in the travel business. Your incentives are to book travel. If people reduce their travel, you lose money. It's not rocket science.

To say that,

quote:

Not everyone is buying the hysteria.

is potentially irresponsible. While we don't want people to panic, we cannot disregard that COVID-19 has reached "PANDEMIC" stage as defined by the World Health Organization (WHO).

As important, the CDC has asked that " Older adults" or "People who have serious chronic medical conditions like: Heart disease, Diabetes, Lung disease" etc. Avoid cruise travel and non-essential air travel. Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Department of Health and Human Services, USA.Gov.

Please do your research and make an informed decision before booking or going on any non-essential air travel.

I also hope that Covid-19 goes away soon, but hope is not a strategy nor should you be planning any trips based on hope.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Can’t fly out of and into Europe.

Hunting and safaris now seem a distant luxury .

Mike

A little dramatic don't you think Mike?

You can still fly through the UK and there are plenty of options to avoid the EU getting to most safari destinations. And let's be honest, this will pass rather quickly once the media finds it's next hyperbolic crisis to pursue.

A distant luxury. Laughable.

Look forward to your hunt report. I bet there will be plenty of cancellation hunts.

May be some good value on all the leopard hunts sold starting in May June.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
Mark, with all due respect, you are in the travel business. Your incentives are to book travel. If people reduce their travel, you lose money. It's not rocket science.

To say that,

quote:

Not everyone is buying the hysteria.

is potentially irresponsible. While we don't want people to panic, we cannot disregard that COVID-19 has reached "PANDEMIC" stage as defined by the World Health Organization (WHO).

As important, the CDC has asked that " Older adults" or "People who have serious chronic medical conditions like: Heart disease, Diabetes, Lung disease" etc. Avoid cruise travel and non-essential air travel. Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Department of Health and Human Services, USA.Gov.

Please do your research and make an informed decision before booking or going on any non-essential air travel.

I also hope that Covid-19 goes away soon, but hope is not a strategy nor should you be planning any trips based on hope.

+1

Mike

Getting back to Cal's original question:

Anybody ever hear of force majeure? I expect that some have. If you haven't, you can Google it.

Anybody ever hear of a force majeure clause in a safari contract? I expect that perhaps some, or at least a few, have. (When it's there, it's usually a paragraph or two away from the complete release, waiver of claims and indemnification clause benefiting the outfitter.)

Anybody ever hear of a force majeure clause benefiting the hunter in a safari contract? I guarantee that no one has, ever.

So, if you feel the need to cancel a safari owing to the outbreak, now officially the pandemic, of the COVID 19 virus, you can almost certainly kiss your money good-bye.

Your only hope would be if you were really smart, and decided to purchase, at the time of booking (can't buy it too much later), the best trip cancellation insurance that money can buy.

And even then, you may have to go a few rounds in the ring with the insurer.

I've never signed a contract to hunt in my life. I likely never will.

There is a lot chest pumping with this stuff will all go away.

When the reality of wiring the rest of the hunt and getting on long haul flights kicks in you will see a lot of cancellations. Losing a deposit is not the end of the world.

The outfitters will be in a bigger financial mess as will anyone in the African tourism business.

Mike

650,000 people die of the flu each year. Why doesn't that cause a panic each year and cause folks to sit in their home bunker shaking with fear and anxiety?


Answer - because we are used to the flu.


So far in three months 5,ooo have died from the Wuhan Virus. 80% who are infected either show no real signs or moderate signs of the infection. Best estimates put the Wuhan Virus mortality rate at around 0.3% - 0.5% as many are not reporting symptoms or seeking medical care.

So and the end of the day, not sure all the hand wringing and hysteria is warranted. But this is an election year and politics (not intellect) is driving the narrative.

If you think you can, or think you cannot, you're right!

I am amazed at the “sheeple” being led by the media. Do we have a problem? Yes. It is nowhere near the 2009-2010 pandemic.

God and Emirates willing, we are going to Africa in about 6 weeks.

Remember, everything is darkest right before it goes pitch black.

https://despair.com/collections/demotivators

I leave you with this link.

Safe travels.....Larry

Disney parks shut down https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/202003/7322/
All college and pro sports shut down
CDC warning on non essential travel
CDC warning on elderly stocking up
Nra annual meeting cancelled
Nearly every convention cancelled


Sure and there will be zero impact on going on a discretionary vacations via a long haul flight in third world countries.

Side note if you flying thru Dubai make sure you have health insurance for Dubai. Last thing you want to do is get stuck in a hospital in Dubai without health insurance if you pick up Covid or anything like Covid (common flu). And I am near certain Emirates is not going to let anyone fly on their planes if they have any abnormal temperature.

Cost of healthcare in Dubai is not cheap. And I knowm Medicare won’t cover a hospital stay in Dubai.

https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/travel

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/u...0000-hospital-bill-1


All the guys I know in the hunting industry in Africa are preparing for a tough season.

Everyone in the Orlando tourism economy is preparing for a tough time.

Pandemics alway suck for the discretionary vacation and tourism business.

Hopefully it all goes away in the next few months like other Covid strains have during the summer.

Mike

Mike, it will go away, but in the meantime, many will be badly hurt economically, and fewer, but some, will even die.

Some feel that life is for living, and that some risk of death is part of life.

I agree with that, as a general rule.

But I do not tempt fate or court death, also as a general rule.

Caution here, and not panic, is the right approach.

Unfortunately, in the world at large, panic is the byword.

If I had a motto, I could think of a worse one than: Live your life however you may please, but buy insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Mike, it will go away, but in the meantime, many will be badly hurt economically, and fewer, but some, will even die.

Some feel that life is for living, and that some risk of death is part of life.

I agree with that, as a general rule.

But I do not tempt fate or court death, also as a general rule.

Caution here, and not panic, is the right approach.

Unfortunately, in the world at large, panic is the byword.

If I had a motto, I could think of a worse one than: Live your life however you may please, but buy insurance.

Yup

The world is in full panic mode in the financial markets. Vix which gives financial market volatility is at 46. Levels you only see in a full blown market crash.

Hopefully it is controlled in the next 3-6 months. But the financial impact will be real and hopefully short term.

This is the question I asked most of my finance buddies

“What happens when restaurants retail theme parks sporting events travel shuts down - what is the negative gdp print”

With financial markets down close to 30 percent a lot of bad stuff is hopefully priced in.

The Africa hunting thing is after all a discretionary vacation. It requires $$ (which become tougher in a crashing financial market and a horrendous energy tape) and a choice activity to undertake. Some will go and it’s America people should be free to spend their dollars as they choose but I am expecting a lot of cancelled hunts to show up on ar and a lot of people to walk away from deposits.

I am an big proponent of self insurance and self protection - it’s suits my personal risk profile and financial profile. I never buy trip or travel insurance. Losing a hunt, a fishing or hunting deposit or a rifle in transit is not that big a financial deal for me. I also carry pretty high deductibles in insurance I buy that I feel hedges tail events for me.

Mike

I have had some interesting conversations about this over the last few days as the situation seems to become worse across the globe.

Firstly I am on both sides of this, on one hand I’m an outfitter / guide and book hunts in the UK. On another I also am fortunate that I get to travel and hunt a lot also as a client mostly in Africa.

From an outfitters perspective I am lucky in that the UK overheads are lower than most places especially if the hunts don’t take place. Ie a lot of the hunt cost is in accommodation, meals & travel all of which wouldn’t be paid if no client turns up. Also because we don’t have tag systems etc if we take a few less animals this year there will probably be a few more to take next year. For this reason I have offered all my clients who are booked or booking a refund minus of 12.5% (basically an admin charge & also so I can still give my agents some commission to help them survive should things get really bad). Or the client can postpone at no cost is the other option.

However as I said this is possible for me and won’t kill my business.

On the other hand I think as hunters we need to think very carefully about what we owe to the industry during this potential disaster. Although I may well be okay in the UK, other parts of the world may not be. Africa is an obvious example, and as we all know the wildlife and the safari operators there are under the pump at the best of times, so what does the worst hold for them. This whole situation does have the potential to be disastrous for them and that may well be out of our control however where possible and I state WHERE POSSIBLE as hunters and true conservationists we must do our very best to support the industry.

Without hunters even if it’s just temporary, concessions will still incur huge overheads and if we wish to visit those same concessions in the years to come and continue to enjoy our vacations to such far reaching places we cannot simply just forget about them and look after ourselves when times get tough.

I think you get my point and I do state that this is “where possible” as I appreciate in some cases it won’t be possible to support them, but where it is let’s put these people at the forefront of our minds as we will need these people / areas in the future to do what we love and are hugely privileged to do so.

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to this!

Alex,

I hear you.

But sorry to say, at the moment this is very simple. If I travel to Africa or any other country outside Scandinavia, I will be put in a quarantine for at least 2 weeks when arriving at Norwegian airport on my way home. Sorry to say, but this will make all bookings impossible for all of us I think. And this will last at least for some months.. the uncertain situation will refrain hunters to make bookings 3-12 months ahead.

The worst scenarioa is that Africa has so far not many affected by the virus. But it will increase in the months to come... and what happens then... ? A scary scenario...

I am very sorry and very concerned as you are Alex !


Morten

Folks,

read the other thread by Kathi regarding travel restrictions in to Uganda from a lot of countries. Including my own Norway and United Kingdom and many more.

Just a start to the whole perspective...


Morten

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Alex,

I hear you.

But sorry to say, at the moment this is very simple. If I travel to Africa or any other country outside Scandinavia, I will be put in a quarantine for at least 2 weeks when arriving at Norwegian airport on my way home. Sorry to say, but this will make all bookings impossible for all of us I think. And this will last at least for some months.. the uncertain situation will refrain hunters to make bookings 3-12 months ahead.

The worst scenarioa is that Africa has so far not many affected by the virus. But it will increase in the months to come... and what happens then... ? A scary scenario...

I am very sorry and very concerned as you are Alex !


Morten

Hi Morten,

I fully understand that and agree with you. This is why I suggested where possible. I also was trying to make the point that even when we can’t travel let’s try and support outfitters rather than put pressure on them to refund / bend over backwards and risk losing everything. As in the end it’s also us losing if we are losing good outfitters and concessions.

I hope you are well

Best

Alex

Hello Alex,

Yes, you are correct. I missed that point about refunds etc.

I am well, but businesses are now facing problems due to the Corona. Very exciting times the next 2-6 weeks. Potential lock down for a large numbers of businesses. Including my own business employing about 25 people.

Hope you are also doing well Alex. Any web page I can contact you through or email adress or what ? Have a Rigby 275 in order that should be used in future in English/Scottish/Irish surroundings

Take care !

Morten

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Hello Alex,

Yes, you are correct. I missed that point about refunds etc.

I am well, but businesses are now facing problems due to the Corona. Very exciting times the next 2-6 weeks. Potential lock down for a large numbers of businesses. Including my own business employing about 25 people.

Hope you are also doing well Alex. Any web page I can contact you through or email adress or what ? Have a Rigby 275 in order that should be used in future in English/Scottish/Irish surroundings

Take care !

Morten

Hi Morten,

Yes for sure. If this doesn't go quickly I fear for many peoples businesses. Fingers crossed.

I got rid of my webpage because of all the UK drama. nielaj@hotmail.com. Lovely rifles they are I am sure you will enjoy it very much when its ready.

Best

Alex

Water department of City of Burbank shutdown interaction with all outside consultants. I usually have two engineers working on a project there. That is a loss of revenue of $16K a week from that client minimum.

Luckily I have a backlog of projects they can work on at the office, so I can keep them busy.

Happening all over with a lot of businesses.

We’ve had a few postponements because of the Europe / US travel ban. It sux this late in the game and has a massive economic effect here right from the outfitters to taxidermist, tracker’s and cleaners who are supporting extended families on one salary. My original thoughts on this virus however was that’s it’s a bad case of the flu. I was resident and quarantined in Guangdong, China when SARS broke out in 2002 so I don’t say that lightly. I do however think this virus has the potential to infect a lot of people and put massive strain on the worlds health care systems. Whatever precautions taken now, no matter what the economic impact may buy some time to figure this thing out. Life is full of good times and bad times and there’s opportunity ( economic and social) for the positive individual in both scenarios.

What I can’t understand is the rush to buy as much toilet paper and face masks as possible. If I thought the world was coming to end I’m after a pack of Marlboros (ex smoker) and the best bottle of whiskey I can get my hands on.

quote:

Originally posted by AJN Hunting:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Alex,

I hear you.

But sorry to say, at the moment this is very simple. If I travel to Africa or any other country outside Scandinavia, I will be put in a quarantine for at least 2 weeks when arriving at Norwegian airport on my way home. Sorry to say, but this will make all bookings impossible for all of us I think. And this will last at least for some months.. the uncertain situation will refrain hunters to make bookings 3-12 months ahead.

The worst scenarioa is that Africa has so far not many affected by the virus. But it will increase in the months to come... and what happens then... ? A scary scenario...

I am very sorry and very concerned as you are Alex !


Morten

Hi Morten,

I fully understand that and agree with you. This is why I suggested where possible. I also was trying to make the point that even when we can’t travel let’s try and support outfitters rather than put pressure on them to refund / bend over backwards and risk losing everything. As in the end it’s also us losing if we are losing good outfitters and concessions.

I hope you are well

Best

Alex

Totally agreed.

No outfitter wants to keep a deposit. Outfitters work hard to market to and keep good clients. There’s nothing to be gained on both sides by an outfitter keeping a deposit. An undertaking by a client to hunt the hunt he intended to hunt at a later date in a Corona virus free environment is a win - win for everyone.

at this point all I can say is this..

Tom Hanks survive for 4 years in an island
,one year in the airport without going nowhere , he got AIDS in Philadelphia , He was in the Second World War and rescued the soldier Ryan,he land a plane in the Hudson River,in Vietnam he rescued the lieutenant Dan, he was in a ship that Somalia pirates kidnapped , he survived in Apolo 13, trying to go to the moon.

If that guy dies from Coronavirus we are done.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
at this point all I can say is this..

Tom Hanks survive for 4 years in an island
,one year in the airport without going nowhere , he got AIDS in Philadelphia , He was in the Second World War and rescued the soldier Ryan,he land a plane in the Hudson River,in Vietnam he rescued the lieutenant Dan, he was in a ship that Somalia pirates kidnapped , he survived in Apolo 13, trying to go to the moon.

If that guy dies from Coronavirus we are done.

Anton!!

Awesome!

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
at this point all I can say is this..

Tom Hanks survive for 4 years in an island
,one year in the airport without going nowhere , he got AIDS in Philadelphia , He was in the Second World War and rescued the soldier Ryan,he land a plane in the Hudson River,in Vietnam he rescued the lieutenant Dan, he was in a ship that Somalia pirates kidnapped , he survived in Apolo 13, trying to go to the moon.

If that guy dies from Coronavirus we are done.

Best post on this subject yet!

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
at this point all I can say is this..

Tom Hanks survive for 4 years in an island
,one year in the airport without going nowhere , he got AIDS in Philadelphia , He was in the Second World War and rescued the soldier Ryan,he land a plane in the Hudson River,in Vietnam he rescued the lieutenant Dan, he was in a ship that Somalia pirates kidnapped , he survived in Apolo 13, trying to go to the moon.

If that guy dies from Coronavirus we are done.

Best post on this subject yet!

Anton for the WIN!

Well our trip to Uganda for buffalo got cancelled. Quite literally we were having lunch in Chicago waiting to fly out that evening when I received word about the 14 day quarantine period Uganda was imposing.

Just a few notes and observations:

Kudos to the following people for being understanding and flexible.

First, Christian Weth of Uganda Wildlife Safaris who advised us of the quarantine issue and also to postpone the trip within an hour of the new quarantine rules going into effect.

Second, Steve at Travel With Guns who we had round trip business class tickets booked with and helped sort things out.

Third, the Kern's at the Hunting Consortium who have been flexible (As have everyone else) during this time of what I consider irrational panic.

The bottom line was the trip got cancelled, we'll go again later this year or next depending on how things play out.

As we were at something of a loose end after the cancellation we flew to Phoenix to visit another old Army buddy and also my parents who are celebrating their 79th and 80th birthdays.

Our motto is roll with the punches and (To mangle a saying) when you get given figs, make lemonade.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
at this point all I can say is this..

Tom Hanks survive for 4 years in an island
,one year in the airport without going nowhere , he got AIDS in Philadelphia , He was in the Second World War and rescued the soldier Ryan,he land a plane in the Hudson River,in Vietnam he rescued the lieutenant Dan, he was in a ship that Somalia pirates kidnapped , he survived in Apolo 13, trying to go to the moon.

If that guy dies from Coronavirus we are done.

I don’t know if you stole that quote or came up with it. Genius! Ha ha

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
at this point all I can say is this..

Tom Hanks survive for 4 years in an island
,one year in the airport without going nowhere , he got AIDS in Philadelphia , He was in the Second World War and rescued the soldier Ryan,he land a plane in the Hudson River,in Vietnam he rescued the lieutenant Dan, he was in a ship that Somalia pirates kidnapped , he survived in Apolo 13, trying to go to the moon.

If that guy dies from Coronavirus we are done.

Best post on this subject yet!

+1. That was excellent!

Ive had every hunt pushed out for obvious reasons, however I ve had not a single client ask for a deposit back, we are just sitting it out and will work on new dates... hats of the our positive clients, what does bother me is what will happen in the case of clients that has hunts booked in A place like Zambia I have 2 booked their... where there is a quota system and the hunts can not take place this year? as most of the 2021 quota would have being sold already and the quota can not be rolled over.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Ive had every hunt pushed out for obvious reasons, however I ve had not a single client ask for a deposit back, we are just sitting it out and will work on new dates... hats of the our positive clients, what does bother me is what will happen in the case of clients that has hunts booked in A place like Zambia I have 2 booked their... where there is a quota system and the hunts can not take place this year? as most of the 2021 quota would have being sold already and the quota can not be rolled over.

There will be a quota reduction and you sell what you can. Your deposits can be rolled over. I have given my clients an option to book later or roll over to next year.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Ive had every hunt pushed out for obvious reasons, however I ve had not a single client ask for a deposit back, we are just sitting it out and will work on new dates... hats of the our positive clients, what does bother me is what will happen in the case of clients that has hunts booked in A place like Zambia I have 2 booked their... where there is a quota system and the hunts can not take place this year? as most of the 2021 quota would have being sold already and the quota can not be rolled over.

There will be a quota reduction and you sell what you can. Your deposits can be rolled over. I have given my clients an option to book later or roll over to next year.

Spoken like a true gentleman.

Thank you Andrew.

This is the most logical solution to a problem neither the client nor the outfitter has any control over.

Hopefully this is not going to last that long, and we can get back to normal life.

The pandemic will give both client and outfitter opportunity to display whether they are truly gentleman or uncouth peasant.

I hope that governments allow quota to be rolled over to next year, being unreasonable in insisting that 2020 quota be taken in 2020 can put a lot of outfitters out of business.

We were just yesterday forced to bail on a fishing trip to the Seychelles through Dubai. We were told there was likely to be a quarantine required on return. Looks like our Outfitter, from RSA, is going to roll the funds over. Can't ask for more.

Wonder what will happen with deposits paid for hunts that cannot be carried through due to quarantine, travel restrictions etc etc and at the same time the outfitters loose the rest of business this year or most of the year ? Are they still able to roll over the money to next year ?

The questions is what kind of flexibility and funding do they have ? I am afraid we will see some situations here. It will not be that simple as said that the outfitter roll over the money to next year if it is not enough money to run the operation through 2020...

Sorry to say, but this concerns me as I am afraid loosing my future hunting possibilities..


Morten

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
at this point all I can say is this..

Tom Hanks survive for 4 years in an island
,one year in the airport without going nowhere , he got AIDS in Philadelphia , He was in the Second World War and rescued the soldier Ryan,he land a plane in the Hudson River,in Vietnam he rescued the lieutenant Dan, he was in a ship that Somalia pirates kidnapped , he survived in Apolo 13, trying to go to the moon.

If that guy dies from Coronavirus we are done.

By the way, good news .. Anton was right ... Tom Hanks is out of hospital in Australia ..





Morten

I just got back from Ethiopia.

The folks at the airport in the US (Dulles) really were a problem. The screening is a joke, essentially self report 3 symptoms and then check a temp. They didn't ask about exposures, they didn't ask about risk factors in my personal health, etc.

Don't get me started on my 4 hour "visit" with customs on arriving.

They gave me a 21 day "home quarantine" recommendation. Oh well. I can do quite a bit from home. It is what it is. Fortunately, my job situation is not a problem there (I got home to a call from my supervisor and told I can't come in for 2 weeks, now 3 after the CDC thing...) what with sick time, work from home, etc.

One thing I saw in Addis was that the Chinese (and presumably others) are playing games. The flights from China to Addis were open, and it looked like (to me) that because there were no travel restrictions (at that time anyhow) that they were flying to Addis and then flying to the US (or wherever) to get around the restrictions. Yes, the medical/customs folks at the airports were checking passports to see if folks were reporting correctly, but they still are here... and from my point of view, the whole "self quarantine" thing is a joke, as it isn't enforced.

This whole pandemic is not something that is being run in an evidence based manner, its being run politically. Frankly, its too late to "stop" the spread, pretty much every country has some exposure, and it will spread.

As it relates to the OP, from a contractual situation, I have yet to see a hunting contract (or insurance one) that looks out for the client. They are all written to protect the business entity from exposure. The "force majeure" or "acts of god" clauses all are essentially what a pandemic is a definition of.

From my point of view, insurance is a rip off here, and the ability of the hunting company morally to be as assistive as possible may be very limited. If COVID 19 shuts down travel through June, and the PH is booked from May-November, there really a limited amount of time that they can rebook you unless the government allows a season extension- and quotas are based on animal population and breeding, so the quota really can't be moved to the next year...

Morally, if the company has openings that same year, they should accommodate all that they can, and figure out some sort of fair way of sharing the loss amongst all that lost (including themselves), but they should not drive themselves out of business trying to placate guys who got screwed by fate, or in this case, by public hysteria.

COVID 19 is a nasty bug. But, without accurate population studies, we really can't know if it is more or less deadly or contagious than other diseases- we haven't had an accurate test for the disease long enough to know who has it and who doesn't. Right now, our stats are skewed by only the worst cases of respiratory disease being tested, at a variable confidence interval for the results being accurate. The control mechanisms that the government is using are not really effective as written (look at the whole spring break beach behavior going on now if you think it is...) and if they are not effective, why are we implementing them?

Politics.

The markets are what they are- but really, is a business worth 30% (or more) less than 2 months ago in real terms? Its all "what do you think it is worth given the disease collapsing the economy" rather than real value loss. Does anyone really think that we will see a 30% drop in the population due to COVID 19?

The worlds reaction to this coronavirus does not make sense to me.That is all I will say.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crbutler:
I just got back from Ethiopia.


Dr.Butler,
Glad you are back home safe & healthy.