I can understand how some poor native in Africa sets up a snare and poaches. He wants protein - food. I have always told the guys I hunt with in the Save - the bravest guy is the local native poacher (not the professional rhino killing bast*rd) who walks in most often bare foot or with crappy plastic slippers and tries to get some meat while surrounded by elephants, lions, leopards, the Save anti poaching patrol ect. I fully support all what the Save (and other operators) do to prevent poaching. But I can to a certain degree empathizes with a local setting up a snare when he is starving in Uncle Bob's Zimbabwe.

What I don't get is blatant criminal poaching in the US. I was at a friend's hunting preserve/camp in Southern Mississippi. The place is high fenced and he is trying to build his herd. He has constant poaching by local meth-heads - cutting the fence, trespassing, carrying a firearm and killing deer. The main way they catch poachers is these retard meth-heads post pictures on facebook.

The local game warden, local law enforcement raid the place on pretext of hunting - but always find stolen guns, meth and stolen property. Never find the deer.

This weekend we found a deer carcass with the head missing.

The fact that some armed criminal cuts a fence and trespasses on private property with intent to use the firearm is outright scary to me.

Only place I have hunted with zero poaching pressure was Kanana in Botswana.

Mike

My hunting partner was hunting blacktails in Oregon when they ran into several hundred acres of marijuana and a complete farming operation. The guides response was "Yeah, we see them a lot" and wanted to go the other way! WTF, do something and don't igmore it.

My partner insisted they call it in, and soon local LEO's and DEA busted the place netting many firearms, illegals, and all the proceeds of the crop. Ignoring it is the same as condoning it, and it will get worse!

Not all snaring in Africa is to feed the starving poor poacher. Some of it is a roaring trade in meat , a real business. The defense of these poachers when caught is always the same , " I was hungry ". Well if the 3 wildebeest , 1 Sable , 1 Giraffe , 3 duiker and 9 warthogs you snared last month don't feed you , what will ?

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Not all snaring in Africa is to feed the starving poor poacher. Some of it is a roaring trade in meat , a real business. The defense of these poachers when caught is always the same , " I was hungry ". Well if the 3 wildebeest , 1 Sable , 1 Giraffe , 3 duiker and 9 warthogs you snared last month don't feed you , what will ?

I suppose poaching comes in different categories: Ivory, Commercial Meat and Subsistence.

The true subsistence poacher who lays a few clusters of Guinea snares or several light wires for small game does no real damage and while such malpractice may not be in line with game laws and regulations, etc. since when has a peasant born and bred in a mud hut out in the sticks (probably never even had an education) know anything about a wildlife conservation/preservation?

Unfortunately its poor buggers like him who get used as scapegoats simply because the other two categories of poachers are protected by the marketeers.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Not all snaring in Africa is to feed the starving poor poacher. Some of it is a roaring trade in meat , a real business. The defense of these poachers when caught is always the same , " I was hungry ". Well if the 3 wildebeest , 1 Sable , 1 Giraffe , 3 duiker and 9 warthogs you snared last month don't feed you , what will ?

Snaring is probably responsible for the loss of most of our wildlife in Zambia. I have never come across a 'subsistence' poacher.

Someone needs to produce a grisly film about this dreadful practise.

Where we are a snare is normally set for antelope which attracts predators such as Leopard and Lion which in return gets throttled.





The above Lion I had the privilege of hunting on a couple of occasions and it later reduced to skin and bone from a snare. He bit off his foot. A client forfeited his Lion tag and safari to put this thing out of it's misery. Good man that.

The literally tons of bushmeat that make it to Europe every week from Africa as both live and smoked meat attest to the true nature of "poaching" in Africa. Any "subsistence" poacher I know soon will turn to a profit from his work, just like you or I would in our business should we see such an opportunity for profit. The shotgun shell costs about $1 in Cameroun. You can sell the meat for $6. What businessman would turn that down? 600% profit in 24 hours?

As far as the USA there is an "elite" poacher I have become aware of who wishes to poach the largest heads on the most exclusive property. He uses night vision and full cammo. Meat is not the issue it is "playing war" with the owners and getting way with it. Most like a "live" video game for them and just for "fun".
Cam

There is also another side to poaching here in America that is similar to camshafts analogy of the shotgun shells.

Poachers here have found that "Real" sportsmen will pay good money for a record book rack.

Then a little magic by a not so upstanding taxidermist or two and the "Real Hunter" starts showing off his/her hard owned trophy.

Don't think it doesn't happen, because it does.

It is fairly hard to find poachers in America anymore that do it for the meat.

Two observations about poaching in the US:
Beretta - Some poachers kill game without any hope of retrieving the meat or trophy.
A friend of mine has a high fenced exotic game ranch in central Texas and when I asked him why the chain link fence was woven with plastic strips along a county road, he replied " So people driving by cannot see the animals and shoot them". It seems he had lost many exotics that were shot through the fence and left dead on the ground. WHY?

Camshaft - the use of "elite" to describe that type of poaching may be way too kind. The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department has a long term war going with those type poachers who spotlight big bucks, chainsaw off the neck and head, and later sell them for trophy mounts to decorate restaurants, motels, offices, "fake hunters", etc. One such case was documented in their monthly magazine Parks And Wildlife, and involved a gang of career criminals involved in drugs, burglaries and such crimes that were supplementing their incomes with poached trophy whitetail bucks that sold for hundreds to thousands of $$ each. These people were well armed and dangerous and had been captured after a lengthy investigation and undercover work.
At this level, poaching is a very dangerous and serious criminal activity and should be seriously controlled.

Oh I would guess "elite" just might have been a bit tongue n cheek.
I suffer from this issue as much as anyone on the forum.
My worst poachers are all the ones with high "cover" so they feel immune even if caught!

Cam

quote:

A client forfeited his Lion tag and safari to put this thing out of it's misery. Good man that.

It is sad to think that a purported professional hunter would have to ask or allow a client to forfeit a tag in order to put down a suffering animal. That kind of thought process would not fair you well in Europe, i think we take game management a little more seriously than they do in your neck of the woods.

There is another group of poachers in the US that get little press as a result of the political implications.
Many states have large populations of illegal immigrants that have no respect for game laws whatsoever. Whether it is the Hmong (sp?) in some northern states, or "mexicans" in the southwest, these groups take a significant amount of game each year. Very similar to the description of the pot growers in a previous post. Why would anyone think those using the national forest to grow drugs won't shoot a few deer in the process.
Lawbreaking is a habit that is not unique to any continent, and poaching is just another indication of the overall breakdown of societal norms in many locations.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by camshaft:
Oh I would guess "elite" just might have been a bit tongue n cheek.
I suffer from this issue as much as anyone on the forum.
My worst poachers are all the ones with high "cover" so they feel immune even if caught!

Cam

like the guy we caught ,Cam, who turned out to be the King's chaffauer?

quote:

The literally tons of bushmeat that make it to Europe every week from Africa as both live and smoked meat attest to the true nature of "poaching" in Africa

Where did you get that one from .... sounds rather "tall" to me unless you are referring to illegal immigrants from north Africa.

Once again we have infighting.

DSC members see the game warden blotter in LSON. Those that don't know what LSON means should join to learn. It hurts to see that lion Andrew posted. It also hurt to see Mike's post. I hope she made it.

I googled bushmeat confiscated and BBC has an article that quotes a 2010 study that 5 tons of bushmeat go through Chares DeGaul airport weekly!
Cam

Ah, the wonderful world of Google!

It might be worth taking note that importation of any meat or fish products in whatever form has to meet with import requirements and regulations in most European countries.

I could bet my bottom dollar that the entire quantity you mentioned entering through CDG was confiscated from passengers whom I very much doubt were carrying it for commercial purposes but for personal consumption instead. The 5 tons a week however seems grossly exaggerated.

Australia is probably the most paranoid of countries whose import regulations on just about anything is ludicrous - one must however respect their laws and levels of paranoia.

The South African bush meat industry is probably the most prolific and arguably the only country in the world where game ranching is at such high commercial levels.
Most of the game shot on trophy hunts ends up being sold as biltong or fresh meat in the local butcheries - has anybody ever wondered why most of "their skinning sheds" look more like operation theaters,? (tiled floors and walls, stainless steel basins, etc, etc.) - also a reason why trophy fees to the client are not as high as other African states.

This too is classified as bush meat, processed and sold in butcheries and supermarkets in its various forms and yet if you were toss a few packets of biltong or frozen fillets into your suitcase and attempt passing through CDG or most any other European destinations where, depending on the levels of scrutiny by customs officials, could well be confiscated and slapped with a stiff fine for your troubles.

The regulations governing the importation of meat,fish, fruit, plants, etc. is pretty rigorous in the States as well - exotic seeds and plants in particular can land you in deep shit if you get nailed.

In TZ bush meat is a highly sought after commodity - most of it however never sees the light of day, i.e. you will not find it being sold or advertised openly yet if you know where and whom, is readily available or available on order.
The individuals responsible however do not rely on supply through snaring but rather depend on organized syndicates who employ the services of well armed groups capable of delivering the goods within 24 hours.

Snaring on a commercial level is mainly conducted from remote villages where basic amenities like electricity and running water are still on the drawing board; where meat is dried in the hunting location and eventually brought back to the villages weeks later.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Australia is probably the most paranoid of countries whose import regulations on just about anything is ludicrous - one must however respect their laws and levels of paranoia.

All Australians are charged with keeping our country disease free. We thankfully do not have foot-and-mouth disease and other nasty pathogens.

quote:

We thankfully do not have foot-and-mouth disease and other nasty pathogens.

Its full of Australians - what other class of pathogens does one need?

Yeah! You have Blair??????


.

No sympathy for poachers here. Like the shoot on sight order that went out in TZ last year. Is it still in place, fujo?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
No sympathy for poachers here. Like the shoot on sight order that went out in TZ last year. Is it still in place, fujo?

Still in place but under wraps after coming under fire for the excessive force and uncalled for harassment against the wrong people.

It is however, quite likely that those found in the wrong place at the wrong time may find themselves on the receiving end.

I find it hard to believe that there could be accusations of excessive force.

That reminds me some old articles from medieval Europe about thieves and poacher preying on Kings game,
When caught will be dealt with swiftly at the end of rope or on receiving end of hangmans axe.
Some things never change
I wonder how many of us are descendants of thieves and poachers
I truly love this debate.