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Red Dot on AK
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Looking to put a red dot optic on an Arsenal AK in 7.62x39. The two routes that I see are 1) putting a handguard mount with a mini-optic on top, or 2) using the side mount and putting a red dot, likely a Russian optic, on it. Many of the mounts and scopes to the rear sit too high and I don't want to add to or change the stock, so I only really see the PK-01V from Kalinka being a mount/optic on a side mount that will let me cowitness with the sights and keep a cheek weld that I am used to. Other ideas out there?


sputster
 
Posts: 759 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 18 December 2003Reply With Quote
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RS Regulate - make modern, modular, side mounts. I would go 30mm over micro here.

Ultimak railed gastube.

Texas Weapons Systems "dogleg topcover mount"

Top three options.


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Posts: 336 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 29 March 2010Reply With Quote
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I'm not one to "rain on your parade," but you are never going to get the exact same cheek weld using both. It isn't physically possible. There will always be minor differences in height. I've had more than several rifles, in both 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 to think such, regardless of the multitude of sights and mounts.


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Posts: 199 | Location: Northwest Oregon | Registered: 05 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Having used the Ultimak/Aimpoint Micro combo I can tell you it DOES cowitness. It's not a great cowitness but it does.

The RS Regulate/Aimpoint Micro does cowitness on an Arsenal too. SAM7SF in my case. FOV is kinda tight which I why I suggest the 30mm tube like the PRO.


____________________________________________

"If a man can't trust himself to carry a loaded rifle out of camp without risk of shooting somebody, then he has no business ever handling a rifle at all and should take up golf or tennis instead." John Taylor

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Posts: 336 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 29 March 2010Reply With Quote
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Eric, if you are saying that I won't get the same cheek weld with iron sights and a low mounted red dot, I agree. One reason that I am moving to a red dot is that the iron sights seem very low already and I am looking to go with a red dot whose reticle is higher up than the irons...just not way up in the air.

Thanks for the suggestions Hizzie.


sputster
 
Posts: 759 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 18 December 2003Reply With Quote
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I have a Russian Kobra EKP 1S-03 on my Arsenal SLR 104FR that I really like. I was thinking of installing a Krebs forend on my other 5.45x39 rifle with a Weaver or similar style red dot. I have a buddy with an Arsenal SLR 106CR with an Ultimak mount and a Bushnell 1x28 Trophy that shoots quite well. It's all a matter of "what floats your boat."


"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
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Posts: 199 | Location: Northwest Oregon | Registered: 05 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Go the Ultimak/Aimpoint route....no question.
 
Posts: 2472 | Registered: 06 July 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Hizzie:
Having used the Ultimak/Aimpoint Micro combo I can tell you it DOES cowitness. It's not a great cowitness but it does.

The RS Regulate/Aimpoint Micro does cowitness on an Arsenal too. SAM7SF in my case. FOV is kinda tight which I why I suggest the 30mm tube like the PRO.


Just a slight point, but the intent of the meaning of "co-witness" means that the iron sights and the red dot line up to the same point of impact. Just having your iron sights appear in your red dot isn't the same thing. For a true "co-witness" they should line up so the shooter does not have to move his eye or cheek to use either.


"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
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Posts: 199 | Location: Northwest Oregon | Registered: 05 January 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
quote:
Originally posted by Hizzie:
Having used the Ultimak/Aimpoint Micro combo I can tell you it DOES cowitness. It's not a great cowitness but it does.

The RS Regulate/Aimpoint Micro does cowitness on an Arsenal too. SAM7SF in my case. FOV is kinda tight which I why I suggest the 30mm tube like the PRO.


Just a slight point, but the intent of the meaning of "co-witness" means that the iron sights and the red dot line up to the same point of impact. Just having your iron sights appear in your red dot isn't the same thing. For a true "co-witness" they should line up so the shooter does not have to move his eye or cheek to use either.


We can split hairs and discuss Absolute and Lower 1/3 Cowitness but why?


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"If a man can't trust himself to carry a loaded rifle out of camp without risk of shooting somebody, then he has no business ever handling a rifle at all and should take up golf or tennis instead." John Taylor

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Posts: 336 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 29 March 2010Reply With Quote
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I guess because I have a problem with "Sort of" in relation to "It does."


"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
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Posts: 199 | Location: Northwest Oregon | Registered: 05 January 2004Reply With Quote
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"cheek weld" is important on conventional scopes, but nearly irrelevant on parallax-free optics like the Aimpoint

that is one of the principle advantages of the aimpoint for fast acquisition of moving targets.

AD


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Posts: 4601 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
"cheek weld" is important on conventional scopes, but nearly irrelevant on parallax-free optics like the Aimpoint

that is one of the principle advantages of the aimpoint for fast acquisition of moving targets.

AD


This^

I use an Aimpoint Pro with an older model RS mount. It works like a charm.


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Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
"cheek weld" is important on conventional scopes, but nearly irrelevant on parallax-free optics like the Aimpoint

that is one of the principle advantages of the aimpoint for fast acquisition of moving targets.

AD


Have you tried it? If not, it's just theory, right?


"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
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Posts: 199 | Location: Northwest Oregon | Registered: 05 January 2004Reply With Quote
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I have and agree completely with AD. Use what you like and what works best for you. I'll do the same.


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Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TC1:
I have and agree completely with AD. Use what you like and what works best for you. I'll do the same.


And after trying it myself, do to. I thought I'd posted on this better than a month ago, but seem to have not.

I tried shooting an Arsenal SLR 104-34 mounted with a Russian Kobra EKP 1S-03M sight at a 25 yard target with a poor cheek weld purposely placing the dot on target but viewing it through the sight on the side. I tried a round top, bottom and sides and the four shots were close enough. So AD is absolutely correct, cheek weld isn't that critical. I stand corrected.


"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
Lost once in the shuffle, member since 2000.
 
Posts: 199 | Location: Northwest Oregon | Registered: 05 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Cheek weld, co-witness and parallax are factors worth considering.

Cheek weld- or the repeatable placement and pressure of ones face/cheek on the buttstock- very important for precision with iron sights, not so much with no-power optics like red dots-but more on that a bit later.

Co-witness- meaning simply that regardless of where in the FOV or the optic, the sight picture of the iron and the reticle coincide in alignment AND most importantly, in POI on target at the prescribed zero range-basically allowing either system to work with nearly exact POI at all ranges. Some like COM others lower 1/3 etc- which is nothing more than a function of ring height, with exceptions based on a some optic design.

Parallax- or the apparent displacement of the rectilce on target based n observation through the optic, especially around the edge of the ocular lens. Optics with no or little P show little or no change of POI regardless of where the eye is placed in the ocular FOV.

Okay, definitions aside, dot optics usually have little parallax, so eye position is almost moot, espc. at the ranges where red dot optics are useful ( 0 to maybe 200m).

Cheek weld- in dynamic shooting, one may not be able to create a repeatable position let alone a repeatable cheek weld- but then again, at combat ranges (0-75, maybe 100m with a Red dot) who cares- a COM mass hit, or preferably, multiple COM hits , not an X is what is called for.

Also, we are talking aout AKs- perhaps very reliable, but not known for precise accuracy, so what's to worry about?

The only caveat I can make is to insure your electronic optic has a good long battery life and practice with both irons and dot, with dot mounted but "off" as everything about combat intentionally requires condieration of Murphy's law- "what can go wrong, will go wrong, espc when life may depend on it".

My "combat rifle" happens to be an AR, and I can tell you Irons zero a bit differently without the optic mounted than with- also, the addition of a set of lenses between aperture and post changes the color and definition of the sight picture a bit-so be aware and consider.

finally, the co-witness feature allows one to quickly check zeros by flipping up the rear aperture, assuming a good iron sight picture and confirming the dot sits where it should on the post....
 
Posts: 1082 | Location: MidWest USA  | Registered: 27 April 2013Reply With Quote
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Good AK's with the right ammo will beat 2 MOA.

Here is an Arsenal SAM7SF with RS Regulate side mounted Aimpoint R1. Sights are visible in the lower 1/3 of the sight.



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"If a man can't trust himself to carry a loaded rifle out of camp without risk of shooting somebody, then he has no business ever handling a rifle at all and should take up golf or tennis instead." John Taylor

Ruger Alaskan 416
Ruger African 223
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 29 March 2010Reply With Quote
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Back to the start of this thread - one thing I was trying to do with a red dot is a more natural sight alignment for me as the irons feel just a little too low. Using a compact red dot will allow me to do this.

So after all of the deliberation I will be going with a Trijicon MRO on a RS Regulate mount...except that the MRO is on back order and the direct RS mount is supposed to be out next month. No big deal, I'll wait. And thanks for the advice and pictures, guys.

While I seriously debated getting one of the Belarus(?) made sights from Kalinka, I thought, do I want a sight with almost no warranty, or a sight with a lifetime warranty? I'll go with the latter.


sputster
 
Posts: 759 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 18 December 2003Reply With Quote
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And Midway is blowing out Aimpoint CompML3's. Micro is getting bumped.


____________________________________________

"If a man can't trust himself to carry a loaded rifle out of camp without risk of shooting somebody, then he has no business ever handling a rifle at all and should take up golf or tennis instead." John Taylor

Ruger Alaskan 416
Ruger African 223
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 29 March 2010Reply With Quote
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Get rid of the Russky crap and get one of the many reasonably-priced ARs collecting dust on dealer shelves (at least while there's still a glut in the AR market).

Yeah, an AK running a RDS on an Ultimak will be somewhat less inaccurate than just shooting it irons only, but that's not saying much, ... when compared to an AR with a similar RDS set-up. Roll Eyes


All The Best ...
 
Posts: 813 | Location: Texas | Registered: 15 October 2015Reply With Quote
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Sub 1 MOA AK shooting Hornady SST. Both of my SAM7SF's do 3 MOA or better with cheap spam can steel cased import ammo.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=11422


____________________________________________

"If a man can't trust himself to carry a loaded rifle out of camp without risk of shooting somebody, then he has no business ever handling a rifle at all and should take up golf or tennis instead." John Taylor

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Ruger African 223
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 29 March 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Hizzie:
Sub 1 MOA AK shooting Hornady SST. * * *


Roll Eyes

Sorry, chief, but we just had to throw the big red bullsh*t flag on that claim ...

bsflag

You get 15yds plus loss of down (i.e., credibility), plus another 15yds for flagrancy.

barf
 
Posts: 813 | Location: Texas | Registered: 15 October 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
quote:
Originally posted by Hizzie:
Sub 1 MOA AK shooting Hornady SST. * * *


Roll Eyes

Sorry, chief, but we just had to throw the big red bullsh*t flag on that claim ...

bsflag

You get 15yds plus loss of down (i.e., credibility), plus another 15yds for flagrancy.

barf


Did you click on the link and read the article? Maybe you oughta Google Darryl Bolke before calling him a liar.


____________________________________________

"If a man can't trust himself to carry a loaded rifle out of camp without risk of shooting somebody, then he has no business ever handling a rifle at all and should take up golf or tennis instead." John Taylor

Ruger Alaskan 416
Ruger African 223
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 29 March 2010Reply With Quote
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I will credit Darryl with using a described better grade rifle - SAM-7F - and quality ammunition - Hornady 123gr SST's - to pull off a great group.

In my case: using the Trijicon MRO optic, which sits on an RS mount, I zeroed the Arsenal SGL21 at 200 yards, which puts it about 4" high at 100 and 2" high at 50. I did not measure the 100 yard groups (3 or 4 in?), but as I was shooting Tula 122gr FMJ's out of a service type Russian barrel, it works for me. The iron sights don't cowitness through the optic, but I don't care, as the dot sight is the perfect height (which the irons were not).


sputster
 
Posts: 759 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 18 December 2003Reply With Quote
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I just put a Vortex StrikeFire II on my AK. Love it!
 
Posts: 1 | Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Registered: 17 January 2016Reply With Quote
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I just put a Vortex StrikeFire II on my AK. Love it!


Which mount did you use?


sputster
 
Posts: 759 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 18 December 2003Reply With Quote
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