Can anybody tell anything about these? Who makes the best and other details. They seem like very sexy weapons....

Some buddy who knows.....

Yeah thats one thing you can count on in crossbows. The compounds and the recurves are about equal in power and Excaliber makes a first class Bow. "I wish I had one".

Its funny when I hear other archers badmouth crossbows. I actually arrested a guy once for harrassing me when I showed up at a range with my crossbow. If anything, a crossbow is harder to master, its range is shorter, and it is no different then a regular bow in any way.............good shooting...........J

Jhook,

How do you figure it's harder to master? Shorter range? What?!!!! I'm one who is under the (false?) impression that they are easier, have a longer range, and are the poacher/lazy bowhunter's tool of choice. Please explain...

Also, word on the street is that the Colo. attourney general just made it legal to hunt CO's archery season with a cross bow if you can claim a physical handicap. Guess this has something to do with the americans with disabilities act.

I'm interested in your reply, thanks.

[ 07-08-2002, 00:34: Message edited by: waldog ]

Waldog

I can't answer for JHook, but I can provide some insight from actual experience.

I am a crossbow hunter with years of hunting experience with both compound and recurve bows (shoulder injury put an end to that). When I started shooting a crossbow (mine is a modern very high quality bow) I found out that:

1. The quietest crossbows are MUCH louder than recurve or compound bows.

2. The fastest crossbows are NO faster and NO more accurate than modern compounds.

3. The best crossbows have the same or shorter effective range than modern compounds because the arrows are lighter and shorter (I won't shoot over 30 yards and have never taken a deer past 25 yards with my crossbow).

4. All crossbows are extremely cumbersome to hunt with. Try carrying you favorite rifle/shotgun with your favorite bow tied across the barrel!

5. It takes the same hunting skill to get within 30 yards of an animal with a crossbow as it does with any type of bow.

6. The ONLY advantage a crossbow gives is not having to draw the bow just before the shot.

7. Crossbows are less "high tech" and are more historical as "primitave weapons" than are compound bows.

8. Most people (not you) who badmouth and flat out lie about crossbows have very little or NO experience hunting with them.

9. Most people who oppose crossbow use during regular archery seasons are bowhunters who think the season somehow belongs to them. Most are also extremely ignorant about the performance of crossbows.

Gonhuntin,

Hey, thanks for that reply. It's just the kind of insightful info I was looking for. And it counts double when it comes from one with experience rather than just an opinion. Thanks again.

Years ago my brother in law bought a crossbow. He never could get it to group arrows. After a while he brought it to me to play with.

I did a lot of tinkering and found that if you get the bolt weight up to around 25 grains per pound of pull, it is very easy to then balance and tune the arrows.

Once everything is in balance you can set sights for all the way out to about 60 yds. and still maintain good groups.This was a 175 lb. bow.

Terry

What you posted is true, but the same can be said of a good compound.

There is no problem shooting 60 yards, but, will your arrow/bolt retain sufficient energy to penetrate enough to make a clean kill?

Will the animal still be standing where you aimed by the time the arrow/bolt gets there?

How many archers would call BS if someone said they routinely made 60 yards shots on deer with a modern compound, yet they will swallow the lie that crossbows are deadly to 60, 70 or even 100 yards!

Sure, crossbows have more poundage, but the power stroke (how long the bow is acting on the arrow) is much shorter than a compound and the arrow/bolt is often lighter and shorter.

Performance can basically be broken down into two areas, how flat the arrow flies and how deep it penetrates. Regardless of how much power a bow has (175 lbs vs. 65 lbs), if the two bows shoot the same weight arrow at the same speed, the performance should be about the same. A fast crossbow will shoot a bolt around 300 fps (+/- 10%). A fast compound will shoot a longer, sometimes heavier, arrow about the same speed because the compound has a longer power stroke.

Although they achieve similar arrow speeds in different ways, if the speed and weight of the arrow are the same, the trajectory and kinetic energy is basically the same.

GonHuntin-
I do shoot at yardage of up to 60yards. If you practice at distance , you will be able to shoot at distance. I have shot all types of strings and my opinion is Compound bows are better at long range than any other. I say this but at the same time I have shot "things" at 70 and 80 yards with both Sticks and Crossbows alike. I try to keep my crono at 275 fps as I find that speed more "true". Last year I took a nice deer at 55 yards and the arrow went another 25yards after pass through (it did not move an inch). I think you will find that wind is the biggest factor in all shooting and is amplified in Archery. I have a hunting buddy that uses a Crossbow because he cannot pull a bow any longer. His opinion is that the Crossbow limits him. I'll say this-- I like them all its just a personal choice.

"""""""""'Gonhuntin,

Hey, thanks for that reply. It's just the kind of insightful info I was looking for. And it counts double when it comes from one with experience rather than just an opinion. Thanks again.""""""""""

Dog I have been hunting with crossbows for 10 years now and currently own three, two compounds and a recurve. Two shoot arrows and one shoots bolts, the difference is that the bolt doesnt have the knock. Both arrows and bolts are much heavier then regular archery arrows when compared to length. The crossbow itself has a much shorter overall span then a regular bow. It really is all academic and comes down to physics.

The physics Ive mentioned not only shortens the range but makes any mistake in range estimation likely to cause a miss. The crossbow arrows and bolts drop like a stone past 20 yrds, and this fact equates into the crossbow hunter needing to practice as much , or more, then a regular archer. Both in range estimation and accuracy.

A newfangled compund hunting Bow, with high tech carbon arrows, has a range of about 60 yrds in the hands of a skilled hunter. A crossbow has a range of about 30yrds max. Anything longer then that and its like lobbing a hand grenade. Plus when you throw in the fact that most crossbow hunters have to hunt from the ground due to disability. Well you get the picture ?

Im glad I had an opportunity to educate you in a sport Im intimiately familiar with. BTW I dont remember us ever talking before and cant understand what caused you to make the above statement that you did................good shooting...........................J

GonHuntin and JHook
Well said however here in Ohio Crossbows are the lazymans way to hunt longer.
Our Bow season is rom early October through the end of January with 1 week after Thanksgiving for Firearms(read shotguns, pistols and blackpowder) and a primative weopons(Black Powder) season in early January of 3 or 4 days. I can bowhunt during the gun season and obviously durting the primative season but I don't for safty concerns.
As to the crossbow there are a number of "hunters" out there that go out and buy a crossbow, mount a scope and think its an arrow firing shotgun good out to around 100 yards.

Me, for someone with a disability ABSOLUTLY!!!
For the ethical hunter who practices and knows his range and other stuff, ABSOLUTLY!!!
For the others I hope I don't see you in the woods drawing down on me because you heard a noise..... Yes it happens regularly I am sorry to say.

Greg

JHook

I shoot an Excalibur Exocett with 20" 2117 bolts and 125 grain Wasp cam lock broadheads. I doubt that my bolts are heavier than most full length arrows unless we are talking superlights or carbon? I killed an 8 point buck and a doe with my crossbow last year. The buck was shot at 7 yards, the doe at the base of the tree my stand was in, she was the third of three that passed within 15 yards. You and I both know my success didn't result from using a superior "crossgun" as some would claim, my success was the result of proper stand selection and knowing how to read the animals.....I could have easily taken both deer with my old Black Widow recurve if I was still able to use it.

Just FYI, I think you are reading Waldog's post wrong, I don't think he is questioning your knowledge, I think he just wants to understand what you are saying?

DOATargets

I have no doubt that what you say is true, but I think you will agree, most archers could not do what you do? With the right arrow, the right bow and the right shooter, I expect a deer could be killed at 100 yards? The problem is that deer aren't stationary targets and the archer has no control over what happens after the arrow is released. Since most crossbows are MUCH louder than other bows, the deer have a greater tendency to "jump the string" making a long range shot with a crossbow even more uncertain! The buck I killed at 7 yards last year is a good example. Even though he was so close, he still had time to react to the noise and the result was that I hit him about 3 inches higher than I was aiming. This has happened to me enough times to know without a doubt that it is the noise of the bow that alerts the deer. I'm glad that you understand that crossbows aren't superior to modern compound bows. There are too many others out there who don't have enough of an open mind to find out for themselves, instead, they believe what they hear and spew forth the same old lies and exagerations that have been around for years.

amosgreg

Since I don't live or hunt in Ohio, I'll take your word for what you see. I think the same thing can be said of "hunters" in all shooting disiplines? A slob is a slob regardless of his choice of weapon!

Good hunting regardless of your choice of tools!

Mark

GonHuntin-
The close range noise thing happens with ALL bows. I have shot film and most deer react at close range. This is a range inside of 15 yards. I play these tapes in slow motion and you can watch deer "string jump" just as the arrow/ Bolt gets there. This is less evident at 30 yards or more. I found the "THE TRUTH" videos also show this happen.
Good shooting and
Thanks for your input.

Paul H
I do blame pickup trucks for road hunters. I also blame roads for road hunters . Can you road hunt with no roads?
I get your point however.

I'll apologize if I sounded a bit snippy but I have gone thru all kinds of harrassment and ignarant statements from other archers since I had to take up a crossbow. Ive actually had complete strangers want to know my personal business, why I have a waiver, and whatnot. Theres a lot of anti-crossbow feelings among standard archers in some parts of the country and its damn irritateing.

First off I shot a regular bow from the age of 6yo , and for the nest 30, before I took up a crossbow. The practical difference between the two bows is nill...nada....zip! Both are bows, operate under the same priciples, shoot arrows/bolts, and either hunter is as ethical as "THEY ARE THEMSELVES". The bow has nothing to do with it.

Gone, your bolts might be equal in weight as regular arrows but they are also shorter, which means thicker. The Excaliber is probably the finest crossbow out there, yes Ive shot it, but the laws of physics apply to it as well. A shot much past 30 yrds with a crossbow is really irresponsable. Even for an expert that practices it, the bow is so loud a deer could jump 10' by the time a bolt makes it 50 yrds to it.

If anything a crossbow hunter has to be even more skilled then a Bow hunter. Some guys like to badmouth crossbows and yet they show up with Bows that have so many newfangled crap on them they look like something from a sci-fi movie. Then there is the "poachers weapon" rap. What a crock! For every deer poached with a crossbow there are probably 1,000 deer poached by regular archers shooting a .22 .

Paul speaks the truth, and from the heart. He says it all very eloquently. Like Gone I have killed all my deer, with my crossbow, from 20 yrds or less, one from 7 yrds as well. And Ive done it from ground hunting. We are all archers, hunters , sportsmen, conservationalists, Constitutionalists....... Brothers & Sisters.....................J

It may seem that I'm kickin' sand here but it's from years of experience of living in OHIO!! I'm a (traditional) bowhunter who has the unfortunate fate of living in a crossgun state! I know alot of good people who hunt with crossbows and take the time too learn to use it, and take great pride in their skills. Believe me there are very few of these individuals in my area. As mentioned in an earlier post most think they are using a scoped weapon capable of killing animals at 100yds. I've witnessed this on many of occasion out of my stands. Only about 5% of those(using cross-guns) who I run into have SHARP broadheads in their quivers!! I know that the same can be said about compound users and trad hunters but the #'s will be LOTS!!! higher on the sharpness of their broadheads! The good old days of hunting deer with archery equipment in the deer's natural state are gone here in Ohio!! The 1st day of archery here resemble's the 1st day of gun season. Deer running everywhere, deer drives and so on!Most hunt like they have a gun in their hands! After the first day, deer walk through the woods like the "Boogie-man" is behind, and up in every tree! I guess it's not so much as the weapon that disturbs me, it's the mentality of the majority of crossbow hunters(the K-mart syndrome) that gets to me! Most of the good crossbow hunters here in Ohio will agree 100% of what I said here!

Hmmmmm, I'll wait patiently until I hear from Ohio crossbow hunters. Im strictly an ambush hunter, and a pretty damn good one at that. But I was raised with traditional achery equipment and Ive seen guys do all kinds of things with traditional bows.

There has been an alarming trend in recent years in guys wanting the Looooong deer seasons of archery. They run out , buy a newfangled contraption, sight it in once like a slug gun, and it sits as a coat rack until opening day. Then most of these "K-Marters" thankfully quit after being unable to sit still for longer then 1/2 hour. They Cant take the glorious solitude that is the life of the bowhunter.

We lost much from archery in my state dureing my lifetime. The archer used to be the unselfish , friendly figure helping his farmer tie fences. If my dad saw a nice Buck hed tell the farmer about it , for the farmers son to take. Archers used to be close to the land , the game, the ethics, each other. In many ways , back in the 60's, we were in a world to ourselves.

And then "ME-ism" took hold in America. Someone splashed a big Buck on a Big magazine cover , corportations took over, cable TV, big money, and a general "screw you all" attitude took over bowhunting. Archers started killing Big Bucks by the bucket , passing on the does, all trying to get their faces on a magazine. All trying to be the "Big Man", takeing 4,5,6,7,8,9,10, Bucks a year. Most states had "unlimted Bucks" for archery season.

Then big problems started. To many Does, to many babys, to many deer, to few bucks. The friendly farmer now had his hand out, or got tired of chaseing hunters away, or favors werent returned. And guys still took their bucks with their bows, all they wanted, even tho they were now limited. If they killed a buck that didnt "measure up" theyd just pull out mommas tag, or their farmers tag, and put it on him.

Dave what you decribe is the general ethical malaise that has soured bowhunting, all bowhunting. You blame crossbows and crossbowman but Im afraid it isnt that simple. Much of what you describe is happening in "standard archery states only" as well. The archers here in their 40s,50s, and 60s, probably know what Im talking about.

Its not that I see the glass as "half empty" I just see it the way it is. I remember a much simpler time, when bowhunting was a much better sport. In all ways..............J

Hey JHook,

Sorry if you thought I was flaming you. I wasn't trying to at all. It was just an innocent question with the best of intentions, asking for input from someone who knew. And, like I said in so many words, your reply counted double. It really did carry a lot of weight since I know nothing about cross bows.

I personally shoot, have always shot, and probably always will shoot traditional archery tackle. There is just a romance about it that is akin to flyfishing with a bamboo flyrod. Incidentally, my bowhunting partner of 13 years is the same way with his compound. And for the record, is the most talented archer I know. He routinly drills milk jugs at 110yds with monotonoud repitition. Yes, he has cleanly killed animals at distances that some would call bullshit on. But after all these years of hunting (and maturing) he doesn't like shooting at a living target beyond 35yds. In his own words, "there is just too damn much that can happen beyond 35yds." I agree completely.

Last fall this same friend and I drew muzzle loader tags and bought our first smoke poles. We then spent all summer becoming proficient to 150yds with them using open sights. Yet in the end, wee both killed huge, trophy mulies at less than 50yds!

It seemed fitting to mention this because inspite of our proficiency with the equipment, it's our skills as hunters that we ultimately rely upon. And what we credit for the successes we've enjoyed. Therefore, while I respect shooting skill, I feel a kindred spirit to all hunters who make unnecessairly close kills using their weapons of choice. As well as those who understand the practical and realistic application of their weapon.

Good hunting to all.

[ 07-10-2002, 08:42: Message edited by: waldog ]

Jhook,
Dave and I agree on what is going on in the woods here in Ohio and to be honest I don't think you will hear from an Ohio Crossbow hunter on this forum that you wouldn't hunt with! Those we are talking about don't take the time to even think about a forum like this. They have other things to do until the day before the Deer season when they go out back and fling a bolt or 2 to make sure the "thang works".

I believe for a handicapped hunter it is a viable weapon and should be legal but I would like to see it included in the rifle season like it is in most western states for the rest of us.

My 2 cents worth having "Been There Seen That" and scared S$%^less.

Greg

Excellent post JHook!!! And also amosgreg!.My biggest thrill of recent years is watching my 2 boys grow up to be hunters! My youngest killed his 1st(shotgun) @ 10yrs old and has the last 3 years killed his deer behind the house with his recurve(the 1st at age 14). I think most are missing what bowhunting is all about and you hit it on the head JHook! Several years ago my youngest boy after all day at school, then football practice, hurried home to hunt the last hour and half behind the house with his recurve. Upon arriving home at dark I drove out in the field too pick him up. I asked him if he saw any deer? His response was ,no I didn't, but the sunset was the most beautiful I've ever saw! I knew then he understood what a true "Bowhunter" is all about!

Well Guys.....
My name is JW and I am an Ohio crossbow hunter.
Even worse is that I live in Muskingum county. (The county that consistently has the highest deer population and the most deer taken every year)
I completely agree with Dave and Greg but it doesn't apply just to crossbows. The same thing can be said about shotguns and black powder rifles.
Every year all the "city folk" in Franklin county who watch TNN make a road trip to Muskingum county with their crossbows and shotguns.
You can guess what happens next.
I have 60 acre that borders Dillon State park. (The public land many seem to migrate to)......Some of the things I've seen just makes me shake my head.

All I will say is that I prefer the crossbow slob hunters to the shotgun slob hunters because they have a shorter lethal range. Thus, I try to take all of my deer before gun season if possible. When I must hunt during gun season, I have taken to wearing IIIA Body armor. (Is this paranoia? Well...I started this practice after a tense situation when I asked Mr. slob who walked past three of my "No Trespassing" signs to please leave.)

Why do I use a Crossbow? Well.... The simple answer is I got a good deal on one. I liked it, I took it home and enjoyed many hours practicing with it and figured it would be a great way to fill my freezer with venison before gun season.

Is using a crossbow cheating? Well if you consider hunting a "Sport" and you are trying to beat your fellow hunters to the record books, then maybe using equipment that gives you an advantage IS cheating. (Of course the same statement could be made about compound bows, release systems, etc.) I however, am not competing against anyone. I love to spend time in the woods and I love to eat venison. I don't care if I shoot a big buck....in fact, I prefer to shoot Doe because they tend to taste better.

Do I have a solution to all of this? No...I just like to hear myself bitch from time to time. Actually I'm pleased that we have all of these people interested in hunting. (It means less people voting against hunting/shooting each November.) I just wish they were interested enough to practice safety and courtesy a little more.

Sure Greg, AH friends are always welcome. Any time your in the area stop by the Dillon Sportsman’s Center. We have a great group of folks there and any of us would be happy to show you the local hot spots and share a story or two.

If you go to the ODNR web site you will see that we have about double the number of deer taken than any other county in Ohio! We really do have a very large (for Ohio) deer population and every deer we don't get during hunting season is another deer we are likely to hit with the car. (the roads get crazy during the rut)

Muskingum county also just opened up another large tract of land for hunting between the towns of Dresden and Zanesville and several nice deer have been taken out of that area.

Hope you stop by

Hey guys,

I'm in Ontario Canada, and crossbows have been an accepted part of archery season here for as long as I can remember. The problems we have are few to none.

The biggest problem with crossbows is lack of education in the areas where crossbows are not popular about their performance (and lack thereof). Once people become accustomed to the fact that they shoot like a compound bow, with similar range and drop, the problems go away. They are not crossguns or rifles, they are bows.

We have slobs here too, but they are the exception to the rule and they get tuned in real fast.

PS. Ditto on Excalibur, they are great and simple. There is nothing to go wrong with them and they shoot as fast and hard as the compounds.

cheers, Mike

Does anyone make a real good quality inexpensive crossbow pistol? There are various cheap imports out there but I've never seen one that looked sturdy and accurate (relatively speaking).

As for easier or harder, I can't shoot a draw bow for beans, but using a strap and a military style hold, I got pretty good with a beat up old crossbow. Good enough for frogs in a tank. Probably never more than 15yds at most though, and frogs aren't as wiley as regular game.

Nothing to do today ScottB?
Go play in traffic.

I do that twice a day in my commute

But I seldom drive more than twice the speed limit. Maybe I need a crossbow?

Really, I have no illusions of stalking grizzly with a crossbow pistol. I have other things in mind It just seemed like there was a knowledge base on this thread about crossbows.

A few years ago, a friend of mine was awarded his disability certificate so he could shoot a crossbow during the archery season. He promptly ordered the best crossbow from Bass Pro Shop and shot it about 5 times and said that was good enough. On opening day, he gut-shot one deer and then pulled the trigger on the crossbow before cocking it so it locked up the trigger mechanism. He had to just sit and watch another deer hang around under his tree. Is this what you guys mean by a slob hunter? The problem with crossbows (in this case) is that people THINK they are deadly with them when in reality, they aren't. The bottom line is that everybody needs to practice with whatever weapon they are going to use....even if it is a crossbow pistol!

Well i can first off say that This Thread Pulls My Strings.
Im Disabled, Have been the last 10 years, And YES, I do hunt with a crossbow. And for other Hunters to say its cheating. Bull$hit ! If it hadnt been for the Crossbow, I wouldnt be able to go hunting. That is a part of my life i cant live without. Now, You ask yourself, If you couldnt pull back a bow, Wouldnt you be grateful that there is one that you can Hunt with. Or would you rather sit on here and not go at all?
I have Never lost a Deer, And i have shot them up to 40yds. with great penatration, He went less than 20 yds.
I Probley do more Hunting, Scouting & Shooting than Most people. No one can say its a lazymans bow, Im not lazy, Nor am i stupid.
To see Hunters argue over this is stupid, why not help each other out, We are all out there doing what we Love, Hunting !

Congratulations on your sucesses Mazter!
I agree with you whole heartedly. I have been exposed to a number of "slob" hunters but they exist using EVERY weapon!

I am glad you can continue hunting and I hope we can cross paths someday seeing as we are about 1 hour apart

Good Luck this Year!

Howdee MAZTER!
What type of crossbow do you use? I hunt with a guy that just bought a TenPoint and loves it. He has been shooting one for about seven years and this is his first true love with one. I tried out a Darton the other day and I liked it alot.
Turtle

Thanks Greg,
I agree with you also, about the Slob Hunter's. The most important thing is Shot Placement, If you cant group your Arrows & Bullet's Then Dont go Hunting.
I dont like the idea of people hunting thier game with a Dog, But im not on my SoapBox telling them about it, if its legal, Fine.
We need to stand together United, Not argueing with each other. Your time spent on post's argueing could be put to use by writing your State Rep's & Congress to keep our rights as hunter's and shooter's.
Greg, If your ever in the area give me a shout. Im going over to the Early Primitive weapons Hunt Oct 21-Oct 26 to WildCat Hollow, St Rt 555. Its Buck Only, And you can Use a Muzzleloader for the week too, Thats what im taking. Ive been there a few times before, if your intrested in meeting over there, Drop me a line. I will be driving over the first 3 days.
Ed

I used A Horton SuperMag for Years, Last year i Bought a New Horton Max Impact, I really like it. I use 125gr SpitFire Broadheads. It shoot's Groups very well.

mazter ,
After taking a vacation the end of June into July to South Africa I don't have any Vacation left
Wildcat Hollow is a nice area but it does get a bit of pressure.. GOOD LUCK!

I am activly involved with the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation as well as sending notes out

Hope we can cross paths
Greg