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I just replaced the string and split cable on a friends bow. It is a PSE Phantom with single cam. Since I don't own a single cam, I noticed that the string comes off the top wheel farther from the axle then it does from the cam. There is 1/2" less tiller on the lower limb which seems to support this difference. Does anyone know what it is supposed to be?
He does not have the book that came with the bow.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I would call PSE and ask them. It has been my experience with several other brands that the tiller should be the same wheel and cam, but I wouldn't want to assume that.
How is it shooting through paper?
 
Posts: 252 | Location: Morris IL USA | Registered: 25 February 2002Reply With Quote
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He is ordering a rest and peep. We have to wait until they arrive before he can shoot it. He bought the bow used.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I found the answer. Have to stretch a tight thread from axle to axle and measure the tiller from the thread. This bow has 1/16" tiller so it is OK.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I found the answer. Have to stretch a tight thread from axle to axle and measure the tiller from the thread. This bow has 1/16" tiller so it is OK.


Well bfrshooter that’s the way you do a course adjustment on a one-cam. The object of tiller adjustment on a one-cam is a little different than for two-cams.

Limb balance is determined by a combined force curve applied to both limbs on a One-cam. Now the object to limb tiling for them is to balance the handle when drawing. If you adjust tiller so when the bow is drawn it eliminates the handle rock and the bow is on a vertical axis and sits square, then little nock adjustment above 90 degrees to the rest will be required.

The bow will shoot square and true throughout it’s complete draw curve. You can check this by coming to full draw without a sight on the bow and placing the back of the bow against a vertical wall and both limb pockets should touch the wall at the same time. The amount of Tiller adjustment is dependent on the shooters grip style and anchor point. It can be a positive or negative Tiller for the bottom limb so don’t be disturbed if it’s outside normal perimeter.

What this does is make the bow more forgiving with the placement of the grip, and the bow when fired should jump forward without any rocking.

Try this and see if it works for you.

By the way proper tilling like this also works on Two cams also, but its more complicated because wheel timing also has to be adjusted by turning up or down cable length and the process has to be done in steps. If you change wheel timing for one wheel then it affects the timing on the other wheel. Change the tilling and it changes wheel timing for both wheels. The object is to set tiller first then wheel timing, then the rest and then nock point.
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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That is why I questioned the tiller reading because the bow does not rock, it draws very evenly. It has not been shot yet since I replaced the strings. I don't foresee any problems.
I have learned one thing about the single cam bow! I will never buy one until I make a jig to make the strings myself. I refuse to pay $40 to $70 for bowstrings.
I make all of my own strings for my bows but my jig is not large enough for those 100"+ string lengths.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I can't do more until my friend comes out to shoot it. I have no idea how he grips the bow or anchors, there is no sense setting it up for myself. It has to be tuned to his style.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I can't do more until my friend comes out to shoot it. I have no idea how he grips the bow or anchors, there is no sense setting it up for myself. It has to be tuned to his style.


How correct you are on that, I've had people ask me to tune their Bow and they think I can do it without them. I tell them, sorry you have to do the work, I'll do the tuning. thumb
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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thanks guys, beer

informative thread. Smiler

You'd probably laugh at the way I setup and tune my bows. I've been shooting recurves lately but you've got my curiosity up enough to do some checking on one of my compounds. Cool

The ultimate object is to repeatedly drive the arrow true and deep into the mark at various ranges, right?

If that is accomplished, can the method used to get there be wrong? Roll Eyes

You guys obviously are more technically minded than I am about bowtuning and that's why I ask. Smiler
 
Posts: 3167 | Location: out behind the barn | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Set your rest and arrow right on center behind the string. Paper tune at 6 feet until you get a perfect hole by adjusting the weight and nocking point ONLY, leave the rest alone.
Sight in your pins perfectly.
Shoot your broadhead at 20 yd's and adjust the weight and nocking point ONLY until you walk the broadhead into the same point of impact as the field point. They will then shoot perfect and hit the same place as the field point.
If you can't do this, you have the wrong arrow.
If the arrow dives and hits low with the nock sticking up, lower the nocking point and do the reverse if the arrow hits high. If the arrow hits to the right, reduce the weight a little and the reverse if it hits left. Only change the weight a pound or so and you will see the arrow move towards the field point.
Leave the sights and rest alone.
The arrow with the field point will NOT move with the broadhead.
If you put a lighter broadhead on, it will hit left of the field point, turn the weight up a little. Reverse for a heavier head.
After paper tuning it should take you less then 10 minutes to get perfect broadhead flight. To fine tune the broadhead, back up to 30 yd's and adjust to hit the field point, LEAVE THE REST AND SIGHTS ALONE. Again, if you can't do it, you have the WRONG arrow.
I don't know how much easier I can make it! It took me many years to figure this out and I copyrighted it. I offer it free here.
I shoot 3 different arrow sizes, three different broadhead weights and 2 different length arrows and all it takes is a twist on the weight screws that I recorded so I can switch any time I want. The sight settings do not change.
I sent a copy to NAP years ago but they can't use the full thing, so they tell you to move the rest. Tuning becomes very limited with the rest only. It will also move the field point impact and you will chase it all over the target, never getting both to hit the same place. Leave the rest alone.
Now, how many are going to tell me that I am stupid and it won't work? I will then tell you again, you have the wrong arrow!
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Now, how many are going to tell me that I am stupid and it won't work? I will then tell you again, you have the wrong arrow!


I'm not gonna tell you your stupid or wrong. But I have always simply moved my rest or sight to fine tune my shots without ever having any problems. JMO
 
Posts: 1118 | Location: Left Coast | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Well there's a little catch to all this Arrow tuning. A whole lot of what bfrshooter says is True, fact is I would say almost 100% true.

"BUT" There's always a hitch isn't there!!!! Big Grin

A weak or stiff shaft shot from a compound with a release doesn’t act the same way as an arrow shot with finger release!!! The oscillation in the shaft in most cases is up and down not side to side!!! A side to side movement indicates that the rest is not center aligned with the string. Another words the bow is not shooting a true center shot.

There are other introduced factors that can cause a compound to not shoot true centershot other than a misalign rest. Most bows now days have split cables at the limb tips, one must make sure the split cables are adjusted so the wheel runs true in the vertical, another is hand torque which may be induced by the placement of the shooters grip or an inherit problem in bow design. Others are shooting to long or to short of a draw length which can induce string torque on release. The rest, arrow, wrist, and elbow must be in the same plane, vertical and horizontal to reduce String torque. The higher the letoff on a bow the more this aliment problem is evident.

It's my experience that minor variations in shaft tensile strength have little to no affect on terminal impact placement if all other factors are benign.

The point here is, if the bow is tuned and the archer is doing his part correctly, then shaft selection is not near as critical. The more forgiving the bow setup is, the more consistence the bow will shoot.

You can put an untuned bow in a shooting machine and fire it and it will consistently slap arrows in exactly the same place time after time again. The factor that is missing is the human element, add the human element of inconsistency to the picture and that’s when the problems start. I’ll repeat, The more forgiving the bow is to these human elements of inconsistency the more accurate the bow will shoot consistently.
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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A lot of what you say is true. ANY tuning has to based on the premise that the bow is in balance first. I did not touch on that at all.
Why you even started on the subject is beyond me as it calls for another book to be written and it has already been done anyway.
With a release, there is some allowance to use a wider variation in stiffness.
BUT, the method works perfectly with a release and fingers. Once tuned this way, field points will group tighter.
If you read my post, you will see that I was telling you how to tune for BROADHEADS. The secret to get broadheads to fly is to make sure the force is perfectly in line with the shaft WHEN THE POWER STROKE OCCURS and that is what my tuning method does.
If the force is a little off, the broadhead will steer the arrow to one side or the other, or up or down and I don't care if you have a release or not.
Since the release eliminates paradox it is easier to shoot, but have you ever watched one shot in slow motion?
You can get away with rest moving with target or field points and get perfect flight. However, you do not want a broadhead out of line with the string thrust even before it is shot. You might tune it for good flight, but if you can make it hit the exact same spot as the field point at all ranges, you know something nobody else does so tell us all how it is done!
OH, I forgot, you must be shooting a mechanical or one of those little bitty things they call a broadhead, one of those things I would never carry into the woods.
I challange you to bring me the largest, worst windplaning broadhead you can find and I will show you how to make it behave with perfect flight at all ranges.
I will also show you how to shoot a field point into the target, shoot a broadhead on top of it, change to a different weight and style broadhead, put that on top of the other two, change to another shaft size and put that arrow on top of the other three and best of all, put a broadhead on as crooked as you can get it by using a smaller insert and I will put that one right on top of the other four.
Can you meet the challange?
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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OH, I forgot, you must be shooting a mechanical or one of those little bitty things they call a broadhead, one of those things I would never carry into the woods.


Gee, you call this Small!!! jumping

Simmons Vented Interceptor 190 Grain with bleeders 1 9/16 cut .



I like to whack um' good!!! Big Grin
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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By the way here's my lite weight rig!!!

Simmon Land Shark 160 Grain with bleeders 1 9/16 cut.

 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Good broadhead! If you are shooting it straight, leave everything alone. Can you hit the same spot as the field point?
One thing most of you forget is how much work it took you to tune. What happens if you have to change something on the bow, string, cables, rest or wheel? You have to start all over. With my method it is so easy to get tune back it is unreal. In fact I prefer setting up a new bow and not one someone has fiddled with. I hate the work of getting the limbs and wheels back where they belong.
For all of you that need to fine tune the cam roll over, go to this site. http://www.bowmanbows.com/creep.htm
If you get some message to download a Japanese language thing, just close it, I don't know why it popped up. You might not get it. The site is not foreign.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Don posted the Easton sight for tuning on another post so I pulled it up and was completely blown away. There in all it's glory was my broadhead tuning method that I developed over 18 yr's ago. The only exception is they say you can move the rest in and out also, which I do not do. But everything else is exactly as I wrote it.
I had sent it to all the archery magazines and to NAP and was rejected and now, there it is!
I will never know if Easton figured it out or my stuff was given to them.
I have sold a few copys cheap and then started to just E mail it to guys. I never made more then postage and ink on it because I was always ready to help. I will never be sorry about it and all I ever wanted was to be recognized for figuring it out.
So I direct all of you to the Easton site. I should never have to explain anything anymore.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I've been Creep Tuning for over 20 years, one thing they forgot to add is, this eliminates the over and under shots from an elevated stand because of short drawing the Bow.
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Chopper, sounds just like me. I also made the first lighted bow sights 48 years ago. I used brass model airplane tubing, a plastic lens and fiber optic from Radio Shack. I found tiny 1-1/2 volt light bulbs used for model trains that would fit in a 1/16" tube. I had to drill out a 6-32 screw with a 1/16" drill for the adjustment part. I even went so far as to use a mercury switch on the bow that I could adjust to light the pins in whatever position I was going to shoot, down from a tree or flat on the ground.
I was working on TV's as a sideline and found very tiny diodes (33 cents apiece) that would light without a bias resister and started to make them for myself and friends. I used them at the owl shoots at night and everyone seen them. Next thing I knew, they were on the market.
I never had money for patent attorneys and searches so I lost out again. It was hell being poor!
I still have some of the originals.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Good broadhead! If you are shooting it straight, leave everything alone. Can you hit the same spot as the field point?
One thing most of you forget is how much work it took you to tune. What happens if you have to change something on the bow, string, cables, rest or wheel? You have to start all over. With my method it is so easy to get tune back it is unreal. In fact I prefer setting up a new bow and not one someone has fiddled with. I hate the work of getting the limbs and wheels back where they belong.
For all of you that need to fine tune the cam roll over, go to this site. http://www.bowmanbows.com/creep.htm
If you get some message to download a Japanese language thing, just close it, I don't know why it popped up. You might not get it. The site is not foreign.


BF, they fly like a dart, best large head I ever shot. They’re made out of tool steel, tuff as hell, and stay Sharp as a Razor. The conclave blade works like a clipper and will cut almost a two-inch hole. Just to give you one example of the penetration power, I shot a Landshark one time through a 22 inch piece of Styrofoam and into a hickory axe handle all the way up to the ferrule of the Broadhead, and this with bleeders on. Coarse the axe handle part wasn’t part of the plan but....... sofa

One other hint here if someone decides to try some of these babies, I always clip the point just a little and re-sharpen it so it’s slightly round (This takes the sticker point off), this makes it like a chisel point and instead of sticking bone it will cut or slip around the bone.
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Damn BF you been at this game longer than I have !!! Big Grin thumb

I've only got thirty years under my belt of Stick slinging!!!

You Know BF, we got a few top-notch shooters on the forum that never comes in here. I myself hang around the political forum most of the time whacking Liberals. Big Grin

You take Bowhammer for instance; Old Blowhard most wouldn’t know this, is a National acclaimed Field and Indoor Tournament Archer. He’s Liberal as hell but he can shoot the piss out of a bow.

What we should do is spend more time over here with the sport we love instead of pissing in each other’s beer over at the political forum. killpc
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Yep, started shooting a bow when I was 4 and I am 68 now. Shot a lot of target archery years ago and once shot a 292 out of 300 (Old Ohio 30 target course) field with a little Red Wing Hunter. I had hundreds of trophys. I also belonged to 8 Ball archers and shot demonstrations at the sportsmans show in Cleveland.
I remember shooting 12 hours a day at times. I shot every day somewhere. I was never interested in going to large shoots and never had the money or time to travel.
Now I only start shooting before hunting season and hang it up after. I still draw 82#. I only started deer hunting when I was around 20 because there were no deer in Ohio. My first season I did get one in Ohio, one in Pa and one in Michigan and have killed around 220 deer or more with a bow plus another 130 with muzzle loaders, shotgun, a few with a rifle and the rest with revolvers. Some years I have taken 5 with the bow.
I sure do like those broadheads! I have to get some.
Someday I will tell you how to fool deer so you can walk around with a herd of them feeding all around you, some as close as 10 yd's.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I am also very happy to see you like heavy equipment. There is just nothing like it for killing power.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I am also very happy to see you like heavy equipment. There is just nothing like it for killing power.


Hey BF, I went through the Speed Freak crap just like everybody else. Only I never went as far as the expandables on game. Don’t get me wrong, I shot a few just to try them out, but was never turned on by those flimsy blades.

Jerry Simmons turned me on to his Broadheads back many years ago when he was tooling them out in his backyard shop. I’ve tried many brands but I always come right back because they work and don’t fail.

The Interceptor I shoot with LongBows and Recurves, and the Landshark with Compound.

The trick for most people is how to sharpen that Concave blade on them. They are manufactured with a course ground edge that sharp, but don’t really feel sharp, but you can put a razor edge on them easy with a few strokes on a ceramic rod and polish them on a leather strap. In most cases you can get a number of kills with the same head before you have to prep them again with the ceramic rod and leather strap. I do replace the bleeders more often but they can also be easily re-sharpened with a stone and polished with leather.
 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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By the way I like this shot of a Simmons in action!!! Big Grin


 
Posts: 11761 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 26 November 2002Reply With Quote
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I still remember the days when every head had to be sharpened. I would take them to work and in between trips I would sit and sharpen. Took me days to get all of them razor sharp. I would test them by shaving the hair off my legs, good thing I never wore shorts.
I see no problem sharpening the curved blades. Soon as I get some money, I will have some.
I remember some guy and his son a long, long time ago hunting in PA that used Bodkin heads. Every time before they climbed down from the tree, they would toss the arrow out first. They would pull it out of the ground, nock it and keep hunting. One year they killed three deer, one for the father, one for the son and one for the wife (don't ask how with those dull blades!) The wife never left camp, never hunted and didn't even have a bow and the game warden caught them. We had a good laugh over that one.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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