I've got a hypothetical question for y'all. Say I bought a 1,000 acre ranch somewhere within 3 hours of Houston and also within driving distance of San Antonio and Austin. The place would probably be in an area southwest of Houston like Bee, Live Oak, Goliad, Victoria, Jackson, Wharton, or Karnes County. It is high fenced and is approximately 60-70% brush and woods. There is 200-300 acres planted in good food plots, which are also high fenced to get the most out of them. This creates plenty of food for the deer. There are approximately 500 Whitetail Deer on the place with a 1:1 buck:doe ratio, allowing for approximately 40-50 bucks to be taken per year. Only bowhunting is allowed. There's 20 corn feeders, each with a double bull pop-up blind. Hunters could either hunt in these or bring their own stands. There is a 2,500 sq. ft. lodge with 5 bedrooms that each have 2 full size beds and a small but practical bathroom (shower, toilet, and 2 sinks). There would be a living room with nice satallite TV, couches, and recliners. Also a nice kitchen and dining area. The ranch would accommodate 10 hunters per hunt. The hunt would be 4 days and include lodging, 1 buck (8 points or more and at least 4.5 years old), 2 does, and unlimited hogs, predators, and other varmints. The price would be somewhere between $1,500-$2,500 total. Now, how many of you would do a hunt like this? And how many people you know would do a hunt like this? I would immagine that people would be waiting in line to do a hunt like this. This is just the result of the gears in my head turning a little bit. What do y'all think?

Also, I do NOT want to turn this into a high fence debate. So if you're against high fences, please just keep it to yourself and do not post a reply. Any other thoughts and opinions are welcome.

Another thing: just because there are feeders and stands, that doesn't mean you have to use them. Hunters would be more than welcome to walk and stalk or spot and stalk, as long as they weren't disturbing other hunters. They could also set up a stand along trails or other areas if they so desired.

I would be interested in a hunt like that as long as I could hunt the way I want (spot/stalk, blind, treestand, etc.)

....

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Firstly why does it have to be a bowhunting only ranch?

If I ever am in a position to own a hunting ranch it will be rifle, specialty pistol, or muzzle loader only!

I have no use for bowhunters wounding game.

D99, you're entitled to your opinion on wounding-I won't get into that argument. But the reason I suspect only bowhunting is that rifle hunting disturbs things so much that it makes it a lot harder to score with a bow. The two don't really go together for deer and elk although other animals might not be as affected.

the chef

calgarychef1,

You are correct. I actually hunt with a rifle more than bow, but I would still like to create a "haven", if you will, like this for bowhunters. I know LOTS of people that would hunt on a place like this.

I don't feel it would be profitable at all, in fact, it would cost far more money than you would make from the hunters.

Just say you were able to book 40 hunters and averaged 2,000 a head. You are talking a multi million dollar operation which would be very unprofitable IMO.

Reloader

I would be interested!

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Firstly why does it have to be a bowhunting only ranch?

If I ever am in a position to own a hunting ranch it will be rifle, specialty pistol, or muzzle loader only!

I have no use for bowhunters wounding game.

I've seen more game wounded and lost by gunhunters than bowhunters !! Get off your high horse and get over it. You probably lack the skills to bowhunt, so you condemn them.


To answer the question that was asked: I would be interested in an arrangement like that as long as there was some leeway to "do your own thing". I'm quite certain that I would also have friends that would be interested. I love to hunt in Texas, I just can't afford to any more. A set up like this might change that.

Another thing: how many would prefer if there were a few species of exotics as well (i.e.-Axis, Blackbuck, Sika, Aoudad)?

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
I don't feel it would be profitable at all, in fact, it would cost far more money than you would make from the hunters.

Just say you were able to book 40 hunters and averaged 2,000 a head. You are talking a multi million dollar operation which would be very unprofitable IMO.

Reloader

Where do you come up with that? You can't figure in the full price of the land when trying to determine if a place will be profitable or not. If that was the case, no hunting ranch would be profitable until decades down the road when it is completely paid for, unless the land was inherited.

Once you have the ball rolling on a place like this, the only things you really have to pay significant amounts for are the food plots (approx. $10,000-$15,000 total per year based on $50/acre for seed, lime, and fertilizer), corn (under $10,000 total per year), paying someone a couple hundred dollars per hunt to drive the hunters out to the hunting areas and help track animals (so let's just say $600/hunt x 6 hunts = $3,600), and other misc. expenses (should be under $30,000 for maintanence, fuel, labor, fence repairs, etc...). So the grand total is going to be under $60,000-$70,000 per year to run the operation. You can't count on a 100% success rate for bowhunting no matter where you hunt. So if they goal was to shoot between 40-50 bucks per year, I would guess that you could book six 10 person hunts per year at $2,000/person = $120,000.

I think it would also be better to add the following: approximately 200 Axis Deer, 150 Blackbuck Antelope, 75 Sika Deer, and 75 Aoudad Sheep. If you were to add these to the property, you would be able to harvest an additional 10 Axis bucks, 7 Blackbuck males, 4 Sika bucks, and 4 Aoudad Rams = 25 additional bucks per year totalling another $50,000. This brings the total gross income to $170,000 per year. The goal of a place like this would NOT be to make a large profit, but more to provide bowhunters with an awesome place to hunt. As long as I could break even every year, I would be a happy camper.

Actually, a property of this size in that specific area of Texas can be purchased for about $1,500/acre. After the initial down payment, the ranch would actually pay for itself every year INCLUDING the ranch payments.

I feel your figures are off but, if you think you could manage it, go for it.


Have you priced High Fencing lately? Priced dozer work? equipment? feed? seed? labor? A ton of hidden expenses as well?

I still feel like it would be a multi million dollar operation that far exceeds the amounts you have figured.

Now if you charged $5-7000 a hunter like most of the other South Texas outfits, you may come out ahead, maybe.

Good Luck

Reloader

Eland Slayer, if you want an example of a similar size and type of operation, look at Sweetwater Creek bow hunting ranch at www.sweetwatercreekbowhunt.com I think that will take you there. The ranch manager is Jim Bob Little. You can look at their trophy fees and what exotics, rules etc. that they have. It is near Dallas/Ft. Worth and has been around for several years and I know during whitetail season it is almost imposible to get a reservation there. I have hog hunted/ and exotic hunted there in the past. It is a bowhunting only place, the reasons for that you can ask the manager but any place hunts much larger if you do not have to worry about bullets bouncing around instead of arrows. Sorry D99, but when we were there,,, no one lost any wounded animals and all games was recovered,, including my Red Stagg

I'm from Canada and not interested in the idea but if you look at what others are charging you will find the price that you should charge. It's the same for any business that you consider, the established businesses know what costs are involved use their experience to guide you.

the chef

drwes,

Yeah, that's where I got the idea. I hunted there 3 years ago. It is an awesome place to bowhunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
I feel your figures are off but, if you think you could manage it, go for it.


Have you priced High Fencing lately? Priced dozer work? equipment? feed? seed? labor? A ton of hidden expenses as well?

I still feel like it would be a multi million dollar operation that far exceeds the amounts you have figured.

Now if you charged $5-7000 a hunter like most of the other South Texas outfits, you may come out ahead, maybe.

Good Luck

Reloader

Reloader,

What part of my figures do you feel are off? I'm not trying to sound smart alleck, I really want to know. I'm always willing to listen to a little constructive criticism.

I have priced high fencing lately. The last time I got a quote (which was a few months ago) from a company called J4 Fencing in El Campo, TX, it was running $3.50-$3.60 per foot. That comes out to be between $18,500-$19,000 per mile. That quoted price was for the wire, all posts, gates, and instillation (including all labor).

What are some hidden expenses that you know of that I didn't mention?

Also, there is no way in hell you could charge $5,000-$7,000 for this type of hunt. Hunts in those price ranges are usually rifle hunts which are fully guided, include fancy meals, 5 star lodge, and a guaranteed opportunity at a 160-180 class buck.

Everybody please remember, this idea is PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. I am years away from being able to afford something like this. Even once I am able to afford it, I am buying a personal ranch first.

quote:

What part of my figures do you feel are off?

You may be close in your figuring but, here's how I would give an off the wall estimate:

Approx figures:

$100,000 for fencing
$2,000,000 for land
$150,000 for a lodge
At the very least $100,000 in dirt work(clearing mostly and preping for fencing, food plots, road ways, etc)
At the least $500,000 for the quality game animals you wish to stock the place with.
At least $75,000 a year for working the soil, planting and maintaining year around food plots
$40,000 a year for a full time ranch hand to keep an eye on the place.
Approx $50,000 for maintenance
Add about 10% for hidden expenses

That doesn't even include the cost of supplemental feed, feeders, deerstands, trucks, atvs, cleaning facilities, having the electricity supply ran, water supply, sewer, and the list goes on and on......

I feel it would cost you approx 250,000 a year to run such a place(including all expenses)

Say you make $120,000 a year on your clients. In the hole 130-180 grand

Tough way to make a living.


The above are just approx estimates(I estimate and run projects for a living so they are probably not too far off).

I may be off alittle but, I still feel you would be in way over your head with the proposed ranch above.

Good Luck

Reloader

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I already stated above, the land can be purchased for $1,500/acre or maybe a little less if you're lucky. That would be $1.5 mil for the land.

Then, you can completely eliminate the $500,000 you proposed for "stocking the ranch". I would not be purchasing any whitetail. If I purchased exotics, the cost would not be anywhere near $500,000. I have quite a bit of experience with exotics and their prices. If I stocked the ranch with exotics, the approximate prices would be the following:

75 Axis (25 males averaging $600 ea./ 50 females averaging $200 ea.)= $25,000

60 Blackbuck (15 males averaging $500 ea./ 45 females averaging $150 ea.)= $14,250

35 Sika (15 males averaging $500 ea./ 20 females averaging $150 ea.)= $10,500

35 Aoudad (15 males averaging $600 ea./ 20 females averaging $200 ea.)= $13,000

Grand total for stocking ranch = $62,750

I would agree with the $100,000 for fence. However, I wouldn't feel the need for a ranch hand. I actually have a friend that is a Texas Parks & Wildlife biologist that would stay for free.

So, maybe the answer lies somewhere between our estimates.

Ok, we will just have to agree to disagree because if you knock another 500-700 grand off my estimates the monthly payments will still be far above 120,000 a year.

Good Luck

Reloader

D99 - you posted your anti bowhunting comment on a bow hunting post to cause a stir and I object to your comment. You suck!!!!

I was hoping D99 would reply to my last post on why he hates bowhunters...but he didn't. I agree that he must not be skilled enough to bowhunt. I also hunt with muzzleloader, specialty pistol and rifle. Bowhunting is what I love most.

I did see he went back and edited his post out...why?

As far as the question at hand. I think $1500-$2000 is about right. Everybody pays for hunts. If not through outfitters, you pay for gas, food, tags etc.

If you build it...they will come.

Ammohouse

The correct abreviation is IF YOU AINT ORDINANCE YOU AINT SHIT! Not IYAAYAS!

IYAOYAS!

Where did you get the Spurs quote? Baxter Black or Tex Ritter?

I deleted my post because I was wrong to post that I hate bowhunters on a bowhunting forum. I was just trying to mess with Eland Hunter, as we were giving him a hard time on another post and I did a search of his post.

Then of course like anything else on a message board when you don't agree 100% with everyone they all gang up on you.

The biggest problem with message boards is that no-one is allowed to have a difference of opinon.

There are things I don't like about bowhunting since you asked.

If 50% of all hunters were bowhunters then they should get 50% of all tags and seasons. But, 50% of all hunters are not bowhunters, so why do they get 50% of all tags and seasons in most states? Of course those states that have muzzleloader tags and seasons also do a 3 ways split which is also unfair.

It takes a tremendous amount of practice to be good at killing animals with a bow. Far too many bowhunters do not take the time to practice that much.

The rifle is a much easier and less fallable means of killing an animal. It can be ignored for most of year, and still be counted on to kill effectivly. Unfortunatly, many rifle hunters don't practice either.

I think I have hijacked enough of Eland Slayers post.

Back to his topic. I really think he's going to have to have year round exotic hunting to be able to pay the bills on a ranch like that. That or raise a ton of cattle!