Sorry it's me again.

This thread is prodigiously interesting. I am looking for the best equipment for buff next year and ele the year after.

Here is one tip among so much I have to discuss with You.
Concerning requirements look at bowhuntingsafari, requirements

Dan Hunsaker gave me a couple of tips.

"Dan did it"


What do You think about penetration. You are considering fat shafts. I prefer small diameter like AxisST or Beman MFX Black Max.
One can put in it any tubing one wishes so as to reach 750-900gr.
My broadhead : 2 blades either Zwickey or Magnus. B52 seems pleasant but too light.

Like Dan I am using a Mathews LX 75#. I am looking for a Mathews safari (he has one) but I'll end up with a Allegiance VFC 90# even though Art Hendersin from Mathewsinc PMed me this morning this :

" Blackmax 2 in Production now

80# limbs

29 inch draw

800 grain arrow

101# KE "

The bowtech has a greater brace height, is more forgiving.

Don, interesting thread. I like your idea of the heavy carbon. I don't think you need to get obsessed about heavy, but you do need heavy to some degree obviously. I will say that worrying about a shoulder behind a broadhead--insert shaft or whatever-- doesn't make much sense to me, you've just cut a big hole for your arrow or whatever to pass through on a game animal. On a target butt, this may not be the case, but after cutting a hole with a 2 or more blade broadhead, anything not ridiculously oversized shouldn't cause a 'drag issue' to my way of thinking.

A good friend of mine used 2419's with some other shaft inside of them, which he coated with some epoxy to 'fuse' it all together, I think the shaft inside was a 2213, but certainly not sure, it was a 'standard' xx-75 of some nature, I guess you could just try and see what OD would fit snug. At any rate I like your idea of the heavy carbon in todays world, although Jerry did say his arrows were really durable--he took everything there is with those in Africa, including some little bitty stuff like a waterbuck.

Before his 'inserted' 2419's he used just regular 2315's and 2419's which also worked well for him.

I have taken Elk with 2315's and even accidentally hit one on the shoulder and got enough penetration to kill that particular bull. On all my other elk except one, I got total pass throughs, was using a Martin Firecat back in the day, set at about 75 lbs., old 45%-48% let off.

Sorry to reminisce, just thinking of my heavier setups. One other thing, I think someone is smoking crack if the say it doesn't matter how front heavy you make a carbon shafted arrow. Spine and balance don't know what a shaft is made of. In my experience, and more importantly in Norb Mulaney's, a more radical/powerful cam or bow requires a lower FOC balance, not a higher one.

Good Luck and good hunting.

Fish,

Thanks for the info.

As to small shaft vs large: in the lungs it might not make much difference, but the drag in a liquid is proportional to the surface area which is proportional to the diameter. Also, the larger shaft is more likely to get pinched, etc. I like the shaft to be smaller than the ferrule diameter. I think Ashby claims 10% reduction in penetration if the shaft size is the same as the ferrule, and 30% reduction if bigger. I agree shaft size is a lot less important than the type and sharpness of the broadhead.

On balance: Those obsessed people in Britain who shoot "flight" or record-breaking long distance arrow shooting use 35-40% FOC to get the max range. I personally use a Carbon Express 350 at 29.5 inches in an 80 lb Bowtech Allegiance. The nock travel on this bow is supposed to be almost non-existent. I can shoot broadheads weighing from 100 grains to 175 grains with no measurable change in group size. So I think that when you use a mechanical release and shoot a bow that pushes the arrow straight forward with a drop away rest, the spine becomes less important. Obviously you can't shoot a noodle!

Spine is obviously very important for traditional shooters, and for those using spring-loaded or fixed rests.

Just got my first Carbon Tech Safari arrow made up:
shaft weighed 15.8 grains/inch
32 inch shaft 508 grains
5" vanes 49 grains
nock 18 grains
brass Glue-in/Glue-on adapter 102 grains
190 grain field point (note that adapter+BH = 292 grains!!!)
total arrow (glue adds a bit) 872 grains.
arrow overall length 34"
balance point 21" from nock
FOC (based on overall measurements) 11.8%

225 fps from my 80# Allegiance, that's 98 ft-lbs KE and .87 for momentum.

Ought to do the job!

Don, those arrows sound awesome. I tell everyone coming to hunt water buffalo, "don't worry about the bow, bows are easy, worry about the arrows, getting them right is HARD"! Compound shooters do have it alot easier, try finding shafts to spine out right for an 85# recurve @ 29"'s AND are small diameter!

lobo,

These are .33 diameter arrows, just about the same as the Grizzly ferrule. I had hoped they'd be a tad smaller in diameter.

I can loan you one if you want to check the spine at 32" shaft length....but I'd probably want it back - they are hard to get as they are only made once or twice a year.

These have a published deflection of .200 inches supported at 28", I think that's with a 1 lb weight. I don't know what that means to a recurve shooter, but they are stiff as a minister's dick!

Don, I like the sound of that rig, the durability of carbon and plenty of weight. Great speed too! That rig will more than do it!

Godd Luck--Don

Thanks, Don. I made up some with the 190 grain Grizzly broadheads last night. The BHs acrually weigh 198 grains, so total hunting arrows are running 880 grains.

My 40 yards pin for the 278 fps 586 grain arrows is just right for these logs at 30 yards.

I think I will try these deer hunting to see how they work.

.

Alf,

I think they have modified that in various provinces ober the years, but that is still the gist of it.

Here is another distillation that contains numbers I have seen on several sites recently. In particular arrows in excess of 800 gr seem to be commonly required for giraffe, hippo, rhino and elephant:


EQUIPMENT RECOMMENDATIONS FOR DANGEROUS GAME
After carefully reviewing the collected data from successful dangerous game bowhunters and independent penetration tests conducted by a number of reputable sources, the following recommendations for equipment were developed.

It should be noted that an equal amount of longbows, recurves and compound bows were used and in the proper configuration of draw weight and arrow mass, were equally effective. Therefore, for the purposes of these recommendations, "bow" refers to all three types mentioned above. It does, however, exclude crossbows.

Lion Leopard Buffalo Elephant Rhino


Bow 31.8 kg 31.8 kg 40.9 kg 43.2 kg 43.2 kg
Weight: (70 lb) (70 lb) (80 lb) (95 lb) (95 lb)
Arrow weight: 550 gr 550 gr 750 gr 850 gr 850 gr

Kinetic Energy 65 ft.lbs 65 ft.lbs 80 ft.lbs 105 ft.lbs 105 ft.lbs

* KE should be achieved with the heaviest projectile that will fly accurately.

It should also be noted that of equal importance to the recommended equipment is tuned arrow flight. The projectile must fly true and impact the animal with dart-like precision to maximize penetration.

Broadhead/Arrow Recommendation

- Arrows can be made out of wood, fiberglass, carbon or aluminum.
- Broadheads cannot be barbed or have any moving parts.
- Broadheads should be of a modern configuration with a minimum of two cutting blades and a minimum width of 2.8 cm.
- Lion and leopard can be hunted with any fixed or replaceable blade broadhead. Any number of blades are permitted.
- Buffalo, elephant and rhinoceros can only be hunted with a single forged, two bladed head that has its cutting edge beginning at the tip.

Hi Don
Bowtech Allegiance, 81#, 30" draw, QAD UltraRest, mechanical release:

400 gr, 319 fps, 90.4 ft-lbs;
585.7 gr, 268 fps, 93.4 ft-lbs;
703.5 gr, 248 fps, 96.1ft-lbs;
1411 gr, 177 fps, 98.2 ft-lb

The bow anrrow combination your showing here with the 703.5 grain arrow should work well. At Chris's dad's place the buffalo I shot was with my old 80 lb bow which your familiar with and a 490 grain arrow at 280 fps. There was no problem with penetration. The 703.5 grain arrow @250 fps should walk right through a Cape Buffalo. Try stacking a couple of sets of beef ribs staggered so that your arrow has to hit a rib and see what your getting for penetration. You can hang them over the side of a 3D target of block of styrofoam and try out the 585.7 and the 703.5 grain arrows. The best of luck on your trip and take good care,
Dave

Thanks, Dave.

I shot a young bull elk with the 586 grain arrow, it worked fine.

I've got some arrows in the 880-900 grain range that seem to make the PHs happier - they are running 220-230 fps which should be plenty at reasonable ranges. I don't think Cape Buff are known for string-jumping!

Hi Don,
Chris mentioned that. Congratulations.
Take care,
Dave

Don- I wish I had seen this earlier. I went through the whole thing last year after not being able to get an ethical shot with a 85 lb recurve in 2003. I ended up going with the Black Max 2, slightly modified by Gabe Lucero at Red Rock Archery in Grand Junction,CO.I ended up at 800 grains with a duplex aluminum,Grizzly heads, 80 lbs of pull. Arrow was traveling at 231 fps.Arrow hit smack in the middle of a rib, penetrated to the last 1/2 of the fletch and put a hole about 1/2 way through the rib on the other side. I didn't have much problem shootng the Black Max. Maybe I don't know what to expect after shooting trad for 35 years. It just didn't seem to be a problem. Who are you booked with? Best of luck!

We are booked with Adam Clements SafariTrackers in LU5 of the Selous, TZ.

I guess great minds think alike, since we wound up at essentially the same place as far as arrow weight and pounds pull.

I had heard of a lot of production problems with the Black Max 2 - maybe your customization got around all of them. The Allegiance seems to work just fine, and is getting slightly more energy than the Black Max 2.

I am considering getting a set of 90# limbs for the Allegiance, but that is probably not necessary - and may put my elderly shoulders at risk!

I used a 907 grain arrow with a Grizzly BH at 221 fps on a whitetail doe this weekend, but learned nothing about penetration as it was ribcage all the way.

Where did you go for your buff?

Don- I went to Moz. I have heard good things about your selous area. What time of the year are you going?

Early Sept 2006

Don- I would be interested in what the problems w/the Black Max you heard of. Just wondering what I should be looking for. We did alot of crawling in MOZ. It might be worth your while to train up for that. My family got a big charge out of it! Another tip might be to get some kind of knee pad system that is intregal to your pants. The exterior type I have used 2X was constantly getting hung up in the grass and brush.A pocket that would hold some high density foam would work. You could replace the foam as needed. I took a bow sling from Primos. I ended up giving it to my PH as he thought it was a fantastic product. It really did protect the cams and string. Used Permithion on pants, shirts,socks,gaitors,shoes, hat, facemask. The area has bad ticks and I had no problems.

I had heard of 80# Black Max 2's that had cam lean problems so bad they jumped track. Also two I know of broke limbs (both at full draw!) One owner had it back to the factory 3 times before he got a good setup that lasted. It really sounded like the 80# limbs were an afterthought. The pro-shop where I bought my Allegiance is very pro-Mathews, but all three techs advised against the Black Max 2 in 80#.

Thanks for the tip on the kneepads. I was planning on the separate ones since I was thinking shorts. Maybe I'll cover them in canvas?

I have not yet begun to crawl, but it (and duck walking) are definitely in my plans.

I am a big permethrin fan.

Can you tell us the whole tale of your trip? We are all interested in the details. It sounds like you did a lot of spot-and-stalk (my plan). Did you also do some hides?

Where did you hit the buff? (Heart, lungs, liver?) How far did he go? Any pictures?

Thanks for speaking up!

Don- In the African Hunting report section, go to page two and check out the report entitled "D. Nelson's Mozambique Safari". There is a pictue there of the bull.If you have to crawl like we did shorts might not be a good idea.

So now I've seen the picture (hope I get one as nice), how about the story?

An 80-85lb bow with an arrow weight in the 800-875 grain range will do the trick.

05tbh,

What kind of head do you suggest?

I have been using Grizzly heads in my trials. I seem to get about 1 in 3 that dries off center when I glue them on the adapter.

I've seen two reports of folks who used German Kinetics Silver Flame broadheads successfully on Cape Buffalo.

I don't like the aspect ratio as much as the Grizzly, but it is a very stout blade and the 7075 T6 ferrule is stronger than most steel. (I had considered making a custom glue-in/glue-on adapter from 7075, so I researched it carefully.)

I'll bet that every one is perfectly centered, and while these are very expensive by normal standards, a half dozen compared to the cost of a buff hunt is a trifle.

Anybody have any experience with these?

Hi Don,

I have no experience with the German Kin. They seem so flashy I don't trust them.

The Grizzly is tough looking. I find them a wee long. Longer they are, prone to bend they may be? What's Your opinion?

I am hesitating between a 170 gr Zwickey or Magnus I and a 210 "Africa" Steelforce.

In fact I fear

a vented BH might break or less penetrate

a NON VENTED BH might not have a perfect flight....but is the flight quality of interest when shooting a large animal under 20 yards?


In 8 weeks I'll be in the field.
Yesterday I have got my 90# Allegiance VFT rigged with a too fragile Truglo Tru Site, a TR drop zone and a no-peep.

My shaft are 12.5 gpi Beman Max4 300
My fletching 3 5" Quick spin
My training field point tiny 190gr (no heavier available)
Ballast will be either 126 or 250 inner tubing.

It results my buff arrows will weight either 686 or 726 or 810 or 850 gr.

If You are hearing weird noises, don't be stressed, it's a poor frog who just has broken his Chrony down.

Good luck

jean,

The Grizzlies are going to be tougher to bend than just about anything else.

This is because the "ferrule" is the same high-tensile steel as the blade (is formed out of it), and it is smooth and continuous and goes 'way out on the point. Some other traditional broadheads may be this way, too. I have never heard of - or seen - a Grizzly bend. I like the long, narrow broadhead.

In my opinion all of the two-piece heads suffer because the ferrule can bend or break (at the back.)

The SteelForce aluminum heads use 7075 T6 alloy for the ferrule - that's about the best you can get for a two-piece broadhead. The blade on the SteelForce is .048 inches thick, and I know of one hunter that brought a bent one back that he pulled from a dead Cape Buff. The arrow penetrated to the far ribs even though the blade was bent at the tip. That one was the 210 gr stainless ferrule. I don't know if the stainless is actually stronger than the 7075, or even as strong. They are made after you order them, so if you want them within 8 weeks you'd better hurry!

The Silver Flame ferrule is also 7075 T6, but the blade is .071" thick. The 125 gr looks pretty spindly, but the 180 grain looks very, very strong to me. ( See 3 weight comparison pic) I don't think you could ever bend that blade. If it was one piece of that steel all the way to the threads it would be almost perfect.

I shoot a custom made Beman carbon arrow(their version of the Easton Axis) and it weighs a total of 875 grains. It has deadly penetration because of the combination of weight and small diameter. The broadhead is a 210gr Steelforce African Series broadhead. This combo has a FOC of 10.5%.

Best combination for penetration? Carbon, thin diameter and weight.

Don,

Thanks for your advices. The grizzli could be hard to find at such short notice.
The steelforce is impressive, it pleases me. I'll train this weekend with my limited stock (3 broadheads). More are to be delivered anytime. I won't take the risk to wait (in vain?) the stainless beauties.
The Germans BH aren't my cup of tea.

O5tbh
Thanks for your support. Beman and Steelforce are my best options for the moment. I am glad You endorse them.

Now Men, I'll brake my back with the 80#allegiance bow . Time hasn't yet come I'd beef it up to 90#.

Don's experience, smartly admitting not to be able to shoot after a full day in the stand, is very valuable.

Jean,

I could shoot it again after I warmed up walking back to the truck. I don't think it would be a problem on any kind of spot and stalk in any temperature.

But after 11 hrs in a tree at -5 Centigrade in the 16-20 kph wind, I just could not get it back.

I had drawn it OK when I tried about 2 hours before the buck showed up.

Don,

IMHO opinion, the Grizzly's are the best broadhead, but require a little modification and sharpening skills in order for them to reach their full potential. I personally don't like modifying broadheads because of consistency and other reasons, so for me there is only one broadhead - The Silver Flame. It is the real deal and I can promise you, you will not find a better screw-in broadhead made. They are EXTREMELY sharp, will shoot almost identical to your field points,extremely tight tolerances, exceptional workmanship and materials, and will hold an edge much longer than any other broadhead and are very strong.

Dr. Ed Ashby, who's work I respect very much, has been very impressed with the Silver Flame and has yet to bend/break one. When he does his testing, he does it on the toughest animal bones that can be found (such as water buffalo, etc).

I know that one hunter has killed two elephants using the Silver Flame and one supposedely cut a rib going in. I figure if they will hold up to elephants and their ribs, anything else is a cakewalk.

*I also have had good experience using the Steelforce 210gr African Series broadhead with a 1" cutting diameter and special teflon-like coating. They have a little better length-to-width ratio, but I still don't think they are quite as strong or sharp as the Silver Flames.

Hope this helps.

05tbh,

What are the details on your custom Beman arrow?

Can others get them? What makes them custom?

As has been said here, the arrows are the hardest part!

I think the Carbon Tech Safari arrows are very good, heavy (15.5 grains/inch) and tough (layered carbon fiber), but they are moderately fat (.334 inches). What are the specifications on the Beman?

Here is what makes them custom: They are a Beman Max 4 carbon (340 series) with a beman target shaft inside, and to help balance out the foc and increase the weight even more, there is electric fence wire inside of the target shaft. He weighed each shaft to make sure they were nearly identical in weight and spine. Out of my 83lb Bowtech Patriot with 28.5" draw length, the 877gr arrow shot approx. 212 fps. He normally builds custom arrows for traditional hunters (recurve and longbow), but decided to experiment with carbon and see what he could come up with. His name is Troy Breeding of Sticks & Feathers.

Carbon Tech makes an excellent shaft, but I wanted a smaller diameter shaft than the Safari or the Alaskan Grizzly series.

Todd

I believe the 340 series is approx. .281 in diameter. I don't know for certain because Beman/Easton will not give you the exact outside diameters, they will just tell you that it shoots a 9/32 field point. Easton told me the Axis is normally 10% smaller in outside diameter compared to other brands of carbon. Also, the shaft weighs 11.2gr/inch.

I will tell you though, I've spoken with a guy on the PSE Pro Staff that states that for the ultimate in penetration you should shoot a pultruded arrow which has been internally loaded with weight. He showed me a "240" series and it was noticeably smaller in diameter compared to my max-4. The reduction appeared to be nearly as great as the difference in an Axis/Max-4 when compared to a Gold Tip or Carbon Express. However, I've never hunted with one so I cannot validate the penetration claim, but all things being equal, it only makes sense that it would. My only concern would be the durability of the shaft.

Thanks, 05tbh.

I would not go to the pultruded shaft, as I remember how easily they shattered.

Yours sounds pretty good.

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
Thanks, 05tbh.

I would not go to the pultruded shaft, as I remember how easily they shattered.

Yours sounds pretty good.

I headed up the engineering for a company that made pultruded products for five years. Honestly, the problem with pultruded shafts isn't the pultrusion process. Had the company I worked for ever pursued the arrow market, they would have been pretty impressive performers. They would not have been the fragile jokes many of us are so familiar with.

The biggest problem with the pultruded shafts initially introduced to the market is they only had Fibers (glass and carbon) in axial direction. That coupled with using cheap relatively weak resins produced shafts with hardly any radial strength whatsoever. This is absolutely the dirt cheapest way to produce a shaft.

A higher tensile resin coupled with a helical cross winde and/or a weft uni wrap on the shafting could have produced an outstanding pultruded shaft.

Many of you probably own a tool with a fiberglass tube handle. Those are pultruded and are nothing like what was initially done for arrows. These handles do have radial strenth and resist shattering extremely well.

I just wanted to make sure everyone didn't unnecessarily equate pultrusion with poor quality.

I thought pultruded meant that the fibers could only run axially.

So what does it mean?

Is there a website that shows?

Thanks,

This site should explain it better Don.

Pultrusion Process

Notice in the schematic the "Continuous Strand Mat" this mat produces the radial strength you would need in an arrow. If you leave the mat out, all you have is an axial fiber part. But as you can see, it doesn't need to be that way.

Thanks!

You're quite welcome Don. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread and see your question.

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
Here's some info I got over the weekend. These are measured results, not factory numbers.
Bow weight speed KE Momentum
Mathews, Switchback, 29", 74# 508 237 63.4 0.534
Mathews, Switchback, 29", 74# 646 223 71.4 0.639
Mathews, Switchback, 30", 73# 508 248 69.4 0.559
Mathews, Switchback, 30", 73# 646 225 72.6 0.645

Please add any information you have as far as measured data that you can to this thread!

Thanks,

Hey Don,

Here are my measured numbers:

Mathews Switchback, 30", 73#:
521gr arrow (Easton Axis ST Obsession), 259 fps (avg for 5 shots), 76 ft-lbs KE, 0.59 lb-sec momentum.

Any idea why I am getting 10 fps more than you did in your test with a slightly lighter arrow? I think Kevin tweaked it a little to get an extra 1/4 inch draw length, could that explain it? Or maybe the thinner air here in the Kootenays?

Cheers,
Canuck